Hard 8

So I just got off the phone with the service department at Lithia Mazda, in California. I asked the service representative whether, like some other people on this forum at other dealerships (see this thread), I could get a reflash on my ECU just to capture all the latest technical updates (TSBs).

He checked with Mazda NA, then called me back and apologized politely, but said Mazda does not authorize its dealerships to provide this service. They offer reflashes only for specific warranty problems, and then the reflashes are limited to the problem area itself.

Does this make sense? Why don't they reflash the entire ECU to avoid future warranty problems? Why don't they keep one current software version for the whole car and update it continually? I'm confused and a bit irritated, but perhaps I'm being unreasonable.

In any event, I asked him to check whether there is a firmware update available for my HVAC system, which (like others) blows hot air from the vents, even on cold days. He'll get back to me on that question.

I'm not blaming the dealership here, but I am annoyed with Mazda NA.

93rdcurrent

What are you trying to get a re-flash for? They aren't going to change the A/F ratio or anything else unless, there is something they will admit is wrong. When you re-flash the ECU there is a slight (as I understand it very slight) possiblity that the e-prom can get fried. That and re-flashing the ECU costs man hours. If it was done all the time the dealerships would be happy but we would be eating Mazda's profits. I for one think Mazda should make money on the car since that is how they will continue to keep it in production.

Hard 8

Good questions; good points. However, I had the (erroneous?) impression that they could jack into my car under the steering wheel and reflash the ECU in a few minutes. Maybe I'm wrong. And certainly frying the computer would bite.

My desire for a reflash may be a bit too compulsive, but I figure if I get in there maybe twice a year and get the latest firmware, I can get my HVAC system, oil pressure sensor warnings (although no; I haven't had that problem), etc., all dialed in better.

I'm not expecting different fuel or timing curves; I'm afraid that's pie in the sky at this point. Instead, it's a form of basic, preventive maintenance that could be, I thought, relatively cheap and painless. And, let me be childish here, but if I know that some other 8s out there have better software, then dammit, I want it, too, at least while I'm under warranty in my shiny new car.

Anyway, you've given something to think about, and I thank you, but what about my other question: Do they really update only the problem part of the code for a given TSB? Why don't they keep one current software version for the whole car? TIA.

Sea Ray

There does seem to be a lot of inconsistant information being given to us by different service depts. If there is a update for a know issue, you should get it. The AC for instance.

They send dealers weekly updates, of course this covers both ford and mazda products and all the models. This doesn't mean that there is an update for our 8's every week. Mine will be checked Sat. to see if it is needed. That is my story and I am sticking to it your mileage may vary..............

Hard8, my dealer says it is a complete reflash and they don't always know what all has been changed or fixed. He said the length of the codes would take a long time to go thru and examine for changes.

RX-GR8

i tried to get the reflash in the TSB http://www.finishlineperformance.com...01-024-03.html but the dealer said did your check engine light go on? i said no. he said they cant reflash it until it does. i showed him the tsb for the engine cover grommets http://www.finishlineperformance.com...01-001-04.html and again he said they had to be loose or missing. i asked him about the hotter plugs to help with flooding http://www.finishlineperformance.com...h_rf04-04.html and he said it has to flood first.

Hard 8

OK, now this is what I had thought: It might be easier and cheaper for them to fix these problems (CEL, etc.) BEFORE they occur, with a reflash.

I guess how I'll handle it is like this: I'll come up with a bona fide justification for a reflash (my hot vent air, perhaps?) and hope the reflash captures every other TSB, too. I hope so, anyway.

RX-8 friend

They do reflash through the OBDII connector under the dash. So far, we think the reflashes have been for sensor desensing (too many error lights). I wouldn't get one unless you have a problem. I suspect the HVAC mods. will be physical (modified ducting).

timisw

"In any event, I asked him to check whether there is a firmware update available for my HVAC system"
Your ECU has nothing to do with your A/C blowing hot air with the A/C off. This is a physical problem not a electronic control issue. I believe the problem with the A/C is that they designed it to be auto electronic controled which means the A/C would be on practically all the time. If it is 65 deg you will get out 78 deg air without the A/C on.
The ECU is for engine operation only.

Hard 8

Cool; thanks. I'd love to get my vents working properly again. The ECU seemed unrelated to the HVAC to me, too, but I thought I'd seen a message here mentioning it as a reflash issue. I dunno.

Japan8

My experience with computers and software has been... if it ain't broke don't fix it. I'm betting it's a combination of this and cost savings that fuels this policy...

Hard 8

I'm beginning to see the light here. BTW, does anyone have a TSB no. for the HVAC problem ASAP? TIA and TTFN.

JD32

I've not had any problems so far, but I had my dealer check with the Mazda rep and she said they would swap plugs if I wanted. Rep also said "If you have no flooding problem, I wouldn't worry about it."
So I'm taking the "If it's not broke, don't fix it approach".

RX-GR8

i'm sure if i pressed the issue i could get the plugs too but i'll leave well enough alone.

Doctorr

Don't forget that 'hotter' plugs don't affect engine flooding.....

'Cold' plugs run cooler under heavy use, 'hot' plugs burn off deposits from slow around town low rev driving.

Hot or cold plugs would have zero effect on flooding, because they don't fire any different when wet, they don't fire at all.....
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doc

RX-GR8

good point doc

Nubo

In that case....

"Yes, the light went on last week"
"It flooded twice already"
"Hmmm.... I noticed those grommets all popped out"

Yeah, that's the ticket :p

Actually I wouldn't change the plugs just for the heck of it. Hotter plugs can cause problems too. There are sites that explain how to evaluate plugs by visual inspection. That's probably a better way to decide if you want the hotter ones.

MEGAREDS

Doctorr is correct in Mazda's "official" world about the hot plugs. Mazda's not suggesting that the new plugs are to help with flooded vehicles, but another member did tell me that a Mazda NA person told him in an email that the plugs were being developed as a possible "fix" for flooding problems. I asked my service guy about the plugs and he told me that they were too expensive... not that they wouldn't help with flooding. I also read that the hot plugs are in short supply, so I'm thinking its possible that the plugs may actually be a "fix," but Mazda's not ready to implement it, but I digress...

I also agree with Japan8; the ECU flashes are probably just not being done by dealerships because they don't see an upside in doing it. Mazda knows what the firmware upgrades are supposed to do, and if you don't complain about the specific problem that the new firmware is designed to fix, then they feel they're asking for trouble by swapping the old for the new. The new firmware is always going to be less tested and the less they "fix" your car the less chance they can be blamed if something goes wrong. I also doubt people would feel good about paying the $20-$30 they would want to charge for a "fix" that produces no noticeable result.

Now, I always try to have the latest drivers on my computer, so I totally get where people are coming from in wanting the new firmware. If you are enthusiastic about your car, you want it to have the latest and greatest. Personally, I'd like the newer NAV firmware that I hear boots up with the Mazda logo... just because I think it would be nicer to have a Mazda logo show up on the screen than the current Navtech logo... but I have to acknowledge that my reasons for wanting an "upgrade" appear dumb to a service department that really only cares about making money and getting through the day.

Which brings me to something else.... what I'd like to have, but don't think I'll ever get, is a relationship with the Mazda mechanic that works on my car. I think that is really what is missing with the dealership's service departments. There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of trust on this forum of the Mazda service people, and that seems to be a function of the size of their operations. Personal service just isn't there. Free coffee, nice waiting rooms, lots of cheerful literature and "satisfaction surveys" out the wazzoo isn't going to replace personal service. Where's Goober when you need him? Instead, we get Mr. Goodwrench . Goober would upgrade your ECU, just because you asked...

RX-GR8

i agree. i took my car in today for the 5000 mile service and i just felt so unsure about the whole situation. it's basically just an oil change but i had just gotten the oil pan replaced for the tsb a few weeks ago and there was some confusion about what viscosity oil was used because the receipt said 5w30 and today i mentioned that and they said its been taken care of. well their idea of taking care of it is to just put 5 quarts of oil added and not metnion the viscosity on the receipt. i was in a hurry to get back to work so i forgot to ask if 5w20 was even used. frankly i dont even know with any certainy if the oil pan was ever replaced i mean how would i know unless i crawled under the car. i never felt this way with any other service department.

EDIT i know the oil was changed because there is a new oil filter on.

BillK

What you have to remember is that flashing the ECU is just that - the dealer has to erase and reprogram the ECU flash memory, and if anything goes wrong, they literally have to replace the ECU.

To put it in PC terms, this isn't like updating drivers, but rather it is (exactly) like updating your BIOS; if something goes wrong, you have an expensive piece of modern art until you can replace the ICs containing the BIOS...

Reeko

Actually, reflashing is not that dangerous (in a PC BIOS).
All flash memories have 2 regions.
One is a Right Once area, the other is reprogrammable.
The Right once area is where the OEM puts the initial Boot Code, and the flash code to reprogram the other area (plus verify the signature of the image you are trying to flash.

So, even if an error happened (such as power loss) during a BIOS update, there is allways enough code in the flash to boot back to the flash utility (just not boot a full OS).

That way you can also revert to an older BIOS version if there is a bug in the one you just installed.

Sea Ray

That's good to hear.

I'm glad that Microsoft didn't design it or who knows what could happen?

BillK

This is definitely not true for all flash memory; I've been on the wrong end more than once.

Hard 8

This is all very educational for me. I guess I'm just in the habit of exploiting firmware updates whenever I can. For example, I simply download the latest firmware for free from the Canon web site and upload it to my digital SLR. And I would occasionally upgrade the chip in my Miata's Link ECU.

As I see it, in the future, the more motivated among us should be able to download the firmware off the manufacturer website and reflash our cars at home. However, I doubt that will happen.

Sea Ray

Canzoomer had mentioned that it could be a possiblity with his unit somewhere in the near future.

I have computerized telescopes that have firmware upgrades available every few months or so. We do have the technology...

Hard 8

I suspect it will be only third-party providers. The car manufacturers won't want people hacking the codes, erasing fault codes, defeating emissions sensors, etc. Federal or state emissions laws could also come into play. Still, others will do what they can, to work around these obstacles.