wakeech

So, i'm new to the forum, and i've been reading that a lot of people have been lumping the RX-8 and the 350Z together as competitors... sorry fellas, ain't gonna happen...

althought Mazda and Nissan have battled it out to be the sportiest in Japan, Nissan (through sheer size and manufacturing might) has been able to sustain profitability at a higher level than Mazda through the 90's and made their "coolness" resurgance sooner...

not pulling any punches their 350Z promises to be a muscle-chewing pocket rocket... but i don't know how good nissan is at keeping promises (never really been a huge fan...)

Anyway, Mazda's resurgance is all about the rotary, but sensible... they need to make money right?? so, why not a sports-SEDAN??
sure, it's sexy and svelt, but four doors are four doors, no matter how really awesome suicides are...
not that i'm knocking it!! i'm sure it's very sporty, and will kill it's competition!! but with a wheel base a back-seat's worth longer than a true sports car, i can't see the RX-8 holding a candle to Nissan's new product in any category (unless it's a real piece of crap... the RX-8 gives up a lot in terms of performance indicators)

so, that said, i offer a few thoughts:
the RX-8 is about compact-sized, right?? a little bigger than a Civic maybe?? torque numbers a little better than that of a VTEC 2.0L??
Price range around that of a trick Acura??
The RX-8 could (if someone could verify this with size specs, like wheel base and height) be directly competing with the RSX Type-S... but beats it by 50+ HP, and has two REALLY USEABLE back seats!! with better accessibility and cost (i'm only assuming, i haven't a clue what a Type S would set you back in US$'s, i'm Canadian, and have a distaste for Hondas) it's a winner... except the rice-kabobs (sorry... not trying to be racist (more WHITE ricers here in vancouver than any other ethnicity), but that's the only widely known term for them that i know) are die-hard Honda drivers...

um, other competitors:
Subaru Impreza WRX (again, more power, equal cost (right??), better room in back, WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better looks)
BMW 3-series (can't compete with the M3, maybe in handling not HP, but at a cost of about half (i wager) the frugal man might favour it)
hmmm... other thoughts?? i can't think now... this post is to F***ing long...

miamimc

To RX8 or to G35 Coupe - That's the question.

wakeech

ya, that's a good one... the infinity version of the 350Z right?? same engine and 4 door on same platform??
but, it's infinity... wouldn't that mean it's big $$'s more??

applejax

Coupe is 2 doors, not four. The Infiniti coupe is hot, much nicer than the 350, and I agree it is a more accurate comparison / competition for the RX8. From what I've seen, the G35 coupe will be in the low 30's - a little higer than the RX, but still competitive.

cOz

Consider this. This car is going to rock! Forget the configuration, it has greater rigidity than the last 7. Who cares if it has four doors if the casis is rock solid. The weight balance is awsome, the rx has always been a quasi mid engined car. This gives it supreme balance. The Suspension is going to set it apart from the competition. Up front its going to have Upper and Lower control arms ala previous rx7. The all important rear suspension is 5 multi-link suspension. With 5 mounting points, much like a porsche. Its going to rock. Its going to weigh in under 3000 lbs, which is good with todays crash standards. Im really excited about this car.

TLuuV

the closest competitor that I can only think of would be the Honda S2000. both seem to be very similar in the power ratings and price (give or take a few thousand). but the main difference is just the lack of 2 more seats in the back for the S2k.

Toadman

Good comparison. Both RWD and around 250-260 HP. The RX-8 has the weight advantage. What about Audi?

applejax

Audi is coming out with an A4 Cabriolet...I wouldn't consider the TT a true competitor because it's FWD.

The way I see it, the RX is in a class by itself - but not in a good way. It has four seats, and cars such as the Miata are smaller and lighter. I guess it's most accurate to call it a sports coupe with four doors that wants to be a sports car.

So, that would leave it's competitors to the aforementioned Infiniti, the M3, and perhaps an Audi. Others come to mind, but in a much higher price bracket.

I haven't compared the size and weight extensively, but do know it's heaver and bigger than cars such as the Miata, the MR2, and I would guess the RX7. To me, that eliminates cars such as the S3K as competition.

applejax

Audi is coming out with an A4 Cabriolet...I wouldn't consider the TT a true competitor because it's FWD.

The way I see it, the RX is in a class by itself - but not in a good way. It has four seats, and cars such as the Miata are smaller and lighter. I guess it's most accurate to call it a sports coupe with four doors that wants to be a sports car.

So, that would leave it's competitors to the aforementioned Infiniti, the M3, and perhaps an Audi. Others come to mind, but in a much higher price bracket.

I haven't compared the size and weight extensively, but do know it's heaver and bigger than cars such as the Miata, the MR2, and I would guess the RX7. To me, that eliminates cars such as the S2K as competition.

applejax

I don't think I was clear...so let me clarify on my last statement -

The S2K may be bigger or heavier than the Miatas or MR2's, but I think that relationship is still closer than a comparison with the RX-8.

n22lasing

If I were in Mazda's shoes I think the RX-8's real competitors is the Honda Accord coupe, and the Camry Solara! I think those cars are boring and lack any real performance competition, however they have room for 5 and styled the same. Even though these cars lack anything to compete with the RX-8 they do outsell many of the other cars everyone else has mentioned. It is also priced the same as the RX-8.

The Pontiac Grand Prix coupe is also priced as the RX-8, and it has the horsepower and performance #'s similar to the RX-8 as well. I'm not sure however if it's a big seller like the Honda or Toyota, but I know they sell more than M3s and TTs.

I thought this would be great info for everyone, so that you can use this info as tools to negotiate a good price with the dealer. Remember Competition drives prices DOWN! Even though I don't think I'd want a Pontiac or a Honda, the dealer doesn't have to know that right? Happy shopping!

Toadman

The Mazda6 has those covered.

rxtreme

iTrader: (1)

How heavy will the new RX-8 be? The power to weight ratio may also determine who some of its competitors are. I don't think calling the RX-8 a true 4 door is the right classification. It's probably been said before, but I would think of it as an easy access sports coupe and obviously classified with other 2+2 2 doors.

Styjan

According to Road & Track:

Mazda RX-8 Specifications
Curb weight: est 2970 lb
Wheelbase: 106.3 in.
Track, f/r: 59.1 in./59.5 in.
Length: 174.2 in.
Width: 69.7 in.
Height: 52.8 in.


Engine & Drivetrain
Type: 2-rotor Wankel
Bore width x chamber major axis: 80.0 mm x 240.0 mm
Displacement: 1308 cc
Horsepower: 250 bhp @ 8500 rpm
Torque: 162 lb-ft @ 7500 rpm
Transmission: 6-speed manual


Chassis & Body
Layout: front engine/rear drive
Brakes: vented discs
Wheels: cast alloy, 18 x 8JJ
Tires: 225/45ZR-18
Steering: type rack & pinion, variable pwr asst
Suspension, f/r: upper & lower A-arms, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar/5-link, coil springs, tube shocks, anti-roll bar

wakeech

actually rxtreme, i think because of the room the rx-8 has in the back seats will kind of separate it from the 2+2's... it is in a different class all on it's own, i think definitely in a good way more than bad... it's differences give it wider apeal, rather than alienating certain markets
thanx for the specs Styjan, as with those i've made some comparisons...

it's a little smaller, and a lot (+400 lbs. i think) lighter, stiffer, more powerful, FAAAAAR better balanced, among other things than the Grand Prix, which i think would be one of the American threats... oh, and it's about $26 000 (us) for the supercharged one

also, i've checked on the RSX type-S (which was my first pick as a competitor, or target... ) is actually fairly spot on in my opinion...
the wheel base (for the type-s) is 4' shorter, overall length only 2', 2' narrower, 3' taller, and (if R&T's mass estimation is accurate) 200 lbs. lighter than the RX-8... now that said, they're pretty close in size, but the RX-8 is more functional as a people mover (with two full sized seats in the back, and two extra doors), more powerful by 50 frickin' horses (and gives up nothing in torque either), more ridgid (i'd wager, if the RX-8 is more ridgid than the last 7), and mass distribution that will leave the rsx type-s in the dust around the cones (about 50/50 for the RX-8, and 61/39 for the RSX <<snicker>>)...
it's got a 200lb advantage, but looking at everything else it gives up to the RX-8, those 200 lbs. might put it at a disadvantage in a crash test...
with the body-- i mean price tag on this RSX at $24 000, it's kind of a close call...
well, i suppose for those who want performance, and better people moving power, they'd pay for it (not to mention the engineering marvel that lay under the hood...)

rxtreme

iTrader: (1)

I'm also comparing the RX-8 to the RSX, but in terms of performance I'm comparing it to the JDM spec type r. The RX-8 is said to hit 60 in under 6 sec. (how much under 6 will be interesting). That's right on par with the DC5 type r. The DC5-r has a very well tuned chasis/suspension, but it still has McStruts vs. the double wishbone/multilink type in the RX-8 (which at limit, theoretically, is supposed to be better).

I'm hoping Honda will chose to send the U.S. a type r but they may lose my buisiness if it is not available by the time I'm ready to buy a car. I need a car that can perform but also has a real back seat (I have a wife and kid). I'm looking for the performance the new type r can provide and the "feel" of a great high revving engine (used to own a Integra gs-r and loved it 'till the day I sold it). Build quality and reliability are also an issue. I can cross my fingers and hope the RX-8, being a new model, fits this requirement. All this, hopefully, for around 28k dollars.

As for comparing other models, many here have thrown in the 350Z as a comparison model. As a consumer, I'm not even thinking about the new Z. Mainly because it's not a 2+2. Performance wise, it sounds like a great deal. The brand new C and D said final spec has 287 HP and recorded it doing 0-60 in 5.4 sec and 1/4 mi in 14.1. All for less than $27,000 for the base model. I hope this inspires Mazda to offer the RX-8 for a similiar price. C and D were, however, uninspired by the Z's handling. Complaining that it understeered more than it should and could stand to lose a couple hundred pounds.

KayakDaddy

The real competitors of the RX-8 will depend on the criteria of each consumer. Most people here seem to be cross shopping between the RX-8 sports coupes like the Acura RSX. Other cars in this classification are the Celica, 3-Series, Grand Prix, Mustang, and Infinity G35. The Accord and Solara coupes don’t really qualify as competition because they aren’t at all sporty. Other folks seem to be comparing between the RX-8 and the new 350Z.
Personally, I’m only cross-shopping the RX-8 with other sports sedans. I have a family and need to haul a child safety seat around along with related baby paraphernalia. The RX-8 is the only car I would consider that doesn’t have four real doors. I can’t wait to see if Mazda’s claims are true about the suicide coupe having more useable rear space than a small sedan.
The two cars I think I have it narrowed down to are the RX-8 and the Subaru WRX STI. I like the AWD of the Subie and it looks like it will be a good deal faster, but the RX-8 is much better looking. Neither car will probably do any good below 3500 RPM but that suits my driving style. Both are also quite distinctive and set themselves apart from all the cookie cutter cars available now.
There are still some unresolved factors. I want to see how usable the RX-8 rear seating area actually is. I also want to see how the production model performs. 6 seconds to 60 seems a little slow for a car that light with that much power. Price is also a factor, since the price hasn’t been announced on the STI or the RX-8.
Oh yeah, if I can’t get the Mazda RX-8 on the X-plan or the STI on their MVP plan, I will not get them. Then I’d probably get a used Audi S4 or used BMW M3.

Jerome81

I would say that Mazda needs this car to be compared with other sports cars, where it will be more than able to hold its own driving wise, but has that extra real seats with easy access that no other sports cars have.

I'm sure some will compare it with sports sedans, but I'm not so sure this will be to Mazda's benefit as much. Mazda was smart to make what could be considered a sports sedan (though it will most certainly have that sports car edge a sports sedan lacks) but avoided coming across as "another BMW 3 series wannabe". Everyone has one of those. So the Mazda will be unique there. However, I think the Mazda might get bagged for not offering the comfy ride, all the heavy luxury doo-dads of the other sports sedans. Also, that group of buyers I would think would be more traditional and might blow off the Mazda as being a bit too odd for them.

Hopefully the Mazda will be placed with both. There is no doubt it will be a true sports car, but with real back seats, many people might not want to see it that. Perhaps the car's best asset is that it really doesn't fit ANY category, and is simply the only car in a category it just created. The worlds first four door sports car according to Mazda.

We'll find out

Rich

You hit the nail on the head. I'll be comparing the RX-8 with the Elise that should be arriving shortly after the RX-8. I suspect that there aren't too many others that have those 2 together at the top of their list.
For what I'm looking for in a car, the 350Z is way too heavy, and alst exceeds my maximum allowable ugliness factor. The RSX is a bit too "boy racer" (I'll refrain from the more commonly used term due to its offensiveness) for me, and it's FWD.

PatrickB

Well, I went and took a look at the Infiniti G35 yesterday. Damn impressive car. Nice luxury, with a 250HP/250Torque engine. It's gotten good reviews for handling and braking, too. I think that's probably the kind of competitor that the RX-8 is going to have to deal with for most people, particularly when the coupe and the 6-speed version of the G25 come out.

-Patrick

Grimace

As I see it, the RX-8 has no real competition. Its about as unique as you can get.

By the way, for the people making comparisons based on size, the RX-8's outside dimensions are identical to the Acura NSX in every way, except for being slightly taller.

KayakDaddy

The G35 must be pretty nice, it just won an eleven car comparison test in the latest edition of Road & Track Magazine. It beat out other sports sedan notables such as the 330i, IS300, A4, etc.

The general consensus of the article was basically, the G35 and the 330i were the class of the competition, and the 330i seemed to be the all around favorite. The G35 was right up there with the BMW, but with a price as tested of about $8,000 less than the Bimmer. The price difference gave the Infinity the edge. You could do a lot with the $8K you save.

KayakDaddy

They said the Lexus IS300 was the most sports car like. If you are like me, you plan on playing with a few modifications; it could be an interesting pick. I’m told that because their drivetrains are the same, the IS300 will accept pretty much the same mods as the now extinct Supra. I’ve read reviews elsewhere online of a Turbo IS300, putting out about 420 HP. Turns out the IS300 weighs less too, so you would have a Supra killer on your hands.


If that logic holds true for Infinity, I would imagine that any modifications available on the 350Z could be put on the G35 as well. I'm sure that car will develop a nice aftermarket following.


Since I’m more in the market for a sedan than a coupe I’m a little ill at Infinity for putting 15 less horsepower in the sedan than the coupe. What punks! Like folks like me who need a little practicality don’t want some get up and go too. Give us the 15 extra HP back and the 6-speed and I’ll think about it.


I do agree with Grimace that there really is nothing else like the RX-8 out there. That’s why I will wait to see one and drive one before buying anything. If it can almost be as useful as a sedan while giving sports car performance, handling, and looks, it may be a perfect fit.

applejax

Good point, Grimace. As I am one of the people who would like to see it about 10"-12" shorter, perhaps I'll clarify my thoughts.

First, I think the NSX is one of the hottest cars ever produced, and would take one in a heartbeat. But maybe it's a mid-engine thing - I've seen the NSX up close and have no problem with it's size. Overall, I like the mid-engine design (not just because it's mid-engine, I like the short front - long back that's naturally inherint to mid-engines) so I have no problems with size there.

For a front-engine car, I like it to be a bit smaller. The Miata, the older RX's...I don't think they'd work as well being as long as the RX8.

Not an extensive explanation, but I think it gets my point across.

cshepley

Of course, there's also that little tiny issue of RWD in the RX8 vs FWD in the RSX.