MJG

I recently purchased four snow tires and wheels for my RX8 from a reputable shop (been in business many years with a very good reputation). When they tried to remove the factory installed wheels to put on the new wheels and snow tires, one of the lug nuts was put on so tight they couldn't remove it with the standard air powered lug nut remover. The owner of the shop used a special wrench to apply additional pressure. At that point the lug nut broke but a piece of it remained firmly inplace. He then advised me to take the car back to the dealer as he felt the lug nut could not now be removed without damaging the wheel. He felt this should be covered under the warranty as the wheels had never been touched before and the lug nut was obviously put on by Mazda.

I took the car in yesterday and the dealer is refusing to cover it under the warranty as they say the damage to the lug nut was done by an outside shop and not an authorized Mazda dealer. The dealer agrees that in order to remove the lug nut, the wheel would get damaged and would have to be replaced. There also might be substantial labor involved. It should be noted that the shop used the wheel lock key to remove the lug nuts with no damage to the key.

At this point I might have to get some legal advice as I am not quite sure how to proceed. I don't believe I should have to pay for a new wheel and the labor involved in the repair. Obviously I have to have the repair done in order to get the snows on (live in NJ so I need snows on car). The question is who do I go after for reimbursement, Mazda or the tire store. I am quite sure the tire store did nothing wrong. They were using their best effort to get the lug nut off and it just broke.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you in advance.

Sea Ray

My locking lugs are still in a plastic bag in the trunk. The dealer did not put them on. If this is normal for the dealer to install them, sounds like your dealer is trying to get off the hook since he most likely is the one who installed them.

Remind him that it was an 'authorized' dealer who put it on too tight to begin with and that this tire shop is more experienced than a dealer at removing wheels, etc. Assuming they are?

Sounds like a letter from your lawyer might help.

Good luck

Haze

Which lug broke? Was it the one with the locking lug or one of the standard lugs?

The locking lugs are supposed to be removed with a HAND WRENCH ONLY according to the instructions that came with them. If your shop tried to remove a locking lug with an IMPACT WRENCH then they are the ones who screwed up. The locking lugs can't take the hammering from the impact wrench, and since I have never heard of a lug nut breaking, only a threaded lug stud, I'm guessing that this is what happened.

If the standard lug nut was removed and it broke apart from the use of an impact wrench, then it's all Mazdas fault because they were the ones who installed the lugs and the lug nut sounds like it was defective. It is VERY acceptable to use an impact wrench to REMOVE standard lug nuts, but it is not accpetable to install using them because they will overtorque even if they are torque sensing.

However, one of these jerks did something wrong, and one of them owes you money because they are supposed to know their business. Small claims court is a great place to handle these sorts of problems, just make sure that you have all of your facts in hand before you go. So make sure that before you have it fixed you get a couple of independent shops to look at, photograph the damage, and write a report that would be useable in court so you can get your money back. All the best.

MJG

Thank you Sea Ray & Haze for your replies. I stopped at the tire shop and dealer again today. I have to correct some things that I originally posted. This is what the tire shop owner wrote on my invoice (and this guys appears very knowledgeable and honest having owned his tire/wheel shop for 18 years):

"Customer came in for tire and wheel installation. All lugs and wheel locks except left rear lock came off in normal manner. Left rear lock would not lossen. A 1/2 drive breaker bar was used in an attempt to loosen the lock. The lock fractured around the circumference of the stud to near flush with the seat of the wheel. All proper removal technics were used in the attempt to remove lock. Advised cusomer to return to Mazda dealer. Lock was apparently overtightened either at Mazda plant or by dealer installation."

It should be noted that the key was at all time used to remove wheel locks and the key remains undamaged.

It appears, from the earlier post, that the dealer must have installed the wheel locks. I now will wait until Monday to talk to the head of service at the dealer in another attempt to get them to cover this under the warranty.

The tire store owner feels that the stud will probably have to be drilled out to remove wheel. Wheel could be damaged in process and he is not sure how complicated a process it will be to replace stud. He says, depending on how car is made, it could be a relatively simple process or a complex process.

If dealer refuses to do work under warranty I will have it done, pay for it and definitely go to small claims court to try to collect. If anyone has any additional comments or suggestions they would be appreciated.

FirstSpin

If it were me, I'd at least threaten to have the cracked lug nut analyzed by a certified metalurgical failure specialist (an engineer). You can have them determine the cause of metal failure for a fairly small sum (couple of hundred bucks?). Even if it's just a bluff to get your service department off their ***, it might give you an edge as you try to convince them that this is a Mazda-quality issue. If a metalurgical analysis reveals a flaw in the part, their argument about the outside-shop being at fault won't hold up. A bad metal part is a bad metal part regardless of whose shop it breaks in.

Haze

Like all things, it is arguable who screwed up here, but if we accept the word of the tire shop then it seems that the dealer overtorqued the lug nut . . . probably using an impact wrench which damaged the nut but that's pure speculation.

The thing here is that the locking lugs are not warranted by Mazda. Mazda didn't put them on. The warranty attaches from the dealer alone, which means that they will have to cover the full cost of the repair and that's why they really want out of it. Make sure you preserve your evidence for court. I believe that it's likely the dealer will fight this.

i3man

Did anyone consider it could be a defect in the craftsmanship of the locking lug...McGard's fault?

IMO, your dealer won't warranty it because they didn't damage it. All they have to say is the tire shop did it and they are probably not liable. If anything it is the tire shop that caused the damage. Isn't it only natural for the tire shop to say it wasn't their fault?

If the Mazda dealer did the damage, no problemlo, they'd cover the cost no questions asked I'm sure. But the question is who did the damage? The tire shop. If the tire shop has signs up that says "the customer assumes all risk of damage to wheels" then you might be out of luck. But I think your best chance of recourse is against the tire shop.

Hindsight is always 20/20 but the way it should have been done would have been to have the dealer crack all the lugs first, then re-tighten and go to the tire shop to have the work done. This method sounds a bit impractical and I'd hate to think we all need to consider this to CYA.

MEGAREDS

I agree that you should take it to Mazda corporate first. If you end up in court be sure that the tire shop gets named as a defendant.

Keep in mind that court is not usually a reasonable choice if the charges are only a few hundred dollars -- even small claims court. The time and frustration are almost never worth it.

i3man

I think it will end up with either your Mazda dealer making a goodwill gesture and taking care of it or it will come out of your pocket. The tire shop albeit responsible for the damage, will deny any liability. The time and cost involved for a legal remedy is not worth it.

iamcanadian

That sucks. Hopefully the dealer or the tire shop or someone else can get the cracked nut off and get your snows on for a relatively small amount of $ + the wheel will be undamaged. If some unreasonable costs are involved consider going after the tire shop and maybe the dealer too, unless recourse can be had from the lock manufacturer. Some say sue everyone and figure it out later . . . I think that the tire shop is liable and they can third party the dealer if they want to. Avoid legal action if at all possible due to the costs, time and aggravation. I mean a letter from your lawyer alone is going to cost you $75 - $100. Good luck and keep us informed.

MJG

Thanks, all, for your replies and suggestions. Tomorrow I will first talk to my attorney (he won't charge me anything for this conversations) to get his advice on how to proceed if I have to go to court. If Mazda refuses to cover it I will definitely go to small claims court (done that on a number of previous occassions with much success) to recover my costs. The question is do I sue Mazda, the tire dealer or both.

Since I was present and witnessed the tire dealer trying to remove the key/lug nut I know he is not at fault. It was obviously overtightened/over torqued by the dealership. However my lawyer may advise me to sue him also since you never know who a judge will say is responsible. The tire dealer has already told me he will testify if I have to go to court. In my opinion, there is no question that if he testifies in court the Mazda dealer should be held responsible since the tire dealer is a professional, is the owner of his shop, has been selling tires, removing wheels, etc for 18 years and he personally broke the lug/key trying to take it off.

In any event, I will find out tomorrow where I am going with this.

sferrett

before you talk to your lawyer, go back to the dealer and work your way up the service-manager chain of command. Dealerships hate getting sub-excellent ratings and such, so if you work upwards through the service manager/supervisors etc you may get someone who will cover it for you so they can look like the hero. If you get to the top of the chain with still no results, then you can mention your lawyer and such.

mamccubbin

I have a little advice from someone who works in the service industry. When you talk to the dealer, be polite. Stay calm and act reasonable with them. If you don't get the answers you want, just kindly ask to speak to the next person up the line. If you act polite, they'll be a lot more likely to want to help you and have you as a return customer. If you are angry and accuse them of things, they'll be more likely to want to fight you. Just my two cents.

Haze

You are right that sueing everybody might be the best option. However, I would get the opinion of a third party shop since this guy is an interested party. The judge might decide to ignore him as an expert and take him only as a fact witness because he has an axe to grind. A third party witness tilts the third he said she said nature of this case in your favor. As to the above comment that it might be a manufacturing defect, that is certainly a posibility, but then the dealer is the proper defendant again because they sold you the locking lugs. Just a thought, and I hope that it all works out for you.

MJG

I appreciate all the comments and suggestions. I am happy to report that the dealer took care of the problem (after I spoke with the service manager). They were able to drill out the stud and remove the remaining part of the lock without damaging the wheel. No charge as they covered it under the warranty. They gave me a new set of locks also.

My faith in Mazda and the dealer has been restored. Glad I didn't have to resort to any legal action. Thanks again, all, for your advice and comments.

Haze

Great to Hear it! Enjoy that 8!!!!!!!

mmmdowning

Glad it got resolved.

boothguy

Props to the members who steered MJG in the right direction. Clear, concise communication about reasonable expectations, combined with factual backup will resolve an amazing number of problems like this one, without undue emotional stress and certainly without dicking around with lawyers.

Even though we tend to view the dealerships and their service departments as the enemy, sometimes deservedly, it's good to remember that they're a business. And a satisfied customer is their best form of advertising.

iamcanadian

Good stuff.

bay

i got my snow tires to put on, so i started.. no problem with the first wheel (rear right), got it on, went to the rear left, tried the same technique (note i'm using the hand tools provided by mazda in my trunk to remove the lugs, i goto take the key lug off, apply my wimpy strength (that managed to get the other one off), and snap..

now i gotta see how to resolve this. i obviously can't get the lug off as it shattered on me. i am going to goto my dealer now and see what i can manage, luckiliy i can drive my beater car to the dealer and see what i can figure out with them. as i have one new tire on (i could put the old tire BACK on with no lug keys), but im shakey about how stable that lug that shattered is going to be.

since i was doing this by myself, in my parking area of the apt complex i live at, whats your thoughts on this being under warantee?.. what if i was on the side of the road and my lug key busted off?.. is the fault all on me?

this isn't the first time i've changed tires (flat or otherwise)... i don't get what happened

bay

just as an update, my dealers service dept isn't open till monday, weekends they are closed... that sounds rather lame to me as most people have weekends off and have time to bring in their vehicles...

apparently NJ has a blue code or something (the salesman told me) that says dealers can't be open on sunday?.. but in NY they can be. ...

so i guess i wait till monday morning to get my tires fixed.. and we've got a snow storm coming on sunday night.... *sigh*

Haze

Ugh!

I'm sorry for you, and it sounds like the same deal to me. It should be paid for by the dealer since they sold you both the car and the lugs and installed them (I am assuming that they installed them). Go tell them that you tried to remove the lug nut with the supplied key and wrench and see what they say. Keep us posted and best of luck - H

241Commuter

This is easy. You were using the equipment you bought from Mazda exactly as it was intended to be used. You have a warranty that covers all such use.

bay

yah, the key lugs were pre installed on the car, i didn't even know they were on there till i got home with the car and started admiring it :p.. then i was like, oh thats kind of clever.

now i know that clever wasn't the word for them.. more like a pain in the *** for me, someone who isn't trying to steal my own wheels! =/

ill be calling the dealer tomarrow morning and hoping to get good news.