Not quite what we've been waiting for...
 

You've probably found it already, but Mazda has listed (unconfirmed!) curb weights, and EPA combined mileage.

http://www2.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/rx8/rx8_main_flash.jsp

To be confirmed by June? Hmmmmm...

at that weight, it will have its ass handed to it by the z. i was hoping mazda could have mounted a challenge. maybe it will bring out a mazdaspeed version to trounce the z like the sti is doing to the evo.

"Unconfirmed"?? Add that to the growing list of words, including "targeted" and "provisional", that Mazda has been using as a disclaimer for many of their stats. Why? It's like their engineers are feverishly working on increasing output and reducing weight by production/delivery deadline. Very strange. It reminds me of the "Lisa's Wedding" episode of The Simpsons:

Smithers: Oh Mr. Burns, we'll thaw you out the second they discover the cure for...seventeen stab wounds in the back. How're we doing boys?
Professor: Well, we're up to fifteen!
Group: Yea!!

(^_^)

6-speed is a projected 3,011 lbs, for those who do not want to visit the website and look for the weight figure.

These numbers aren't written in stone. Weight could go up and hp down before the car is finalized. What if it comes out at 3,050 lbs and hp is only 240? It could happen... look at the overstated Miata HP flap of a few years ago.

Evel333, you said it perfectly about these disclaimers. I'm tired of the weasel words, and my skepticism about the RX-8 will not go away. I really want to love this car. But I keep getting the idea that in everyday driving, it isn't going to be or feel any faster than a 220 hp Mazda 6, but with a lot more compromises.

If the weight goes up any more we're gonna end up with a Lincoln.

I'm hoping that the reason for the temporary wording is that they don't want the RX-8 and Mazda 6 cars to be so similar. I'm also hoping that the weight is not for the base version but the fat grand tourer.

actually feb. issue of car and driver puts the 6 cyl. mazda6 at 6.67 sec. 0-60. so the 8 will still be faster and better handling.

Car and Driver also got a 6.1 time for an rsx-s. :eek:

also i shhould mention, thogh of topic, they compared the 6cyl mazda6 with the 6cyl. jetta and altima. they picked the 6 over the other two and called the interior something like "a step" above the others.

Hate to say I told you guys, but, I told you guys.

The Z is gonna stomp this car performance wise. With that said, I'm getting an 8. Why? Because this will be my daily driver, and the 8 will be fun to drive while at the same time achieving a level of practicality that no sports car currently on the market for under 30K can achieve.

For those of you fixated on 1/4 mile times, I say wait for the rx-7, or buy a Z.

Z will beat the RX-8 in a straight line, and I believe it will beat it with a good edge.

HOWEVER, when it comes to handling and agility I think the RX-8 will romp the Z. Lighter weight, and in the right places (centered in this car, as much as it can be), do wonders for handling instead of the bulky imbalanced Z.

Performance is what you want it to be a measure of.. if it's pure power/speed then the Z might fit your bill, but for me it's handling with an ADEQUATE AMOUNT of power, and the RX-8 does just that.

The handling on the RX-8 will be one of the raasons I'm buying it, but mostly for price/practicality. The Z will fail in handling (in my opinion) to the RX-8, loses on price and practicality as well.. so the 8 is an easy choice.

Don't make blanket statements like 'performance' because it doesn't mean straight line times to everybody.

What are you talking about? Good and bad handling is a subjective concept. What isnt a subjective concept is how fast a car does a lap around a track, and THAT is what I mean by performance. You guys just won't let go, will you. The Z is gonna trounce the 8 around the vast majority of tracks... thats what I call better performance.

If you're looking for a Z beater, this is not the car for you.

One thing to keep in mind when one is making blanket statements about how the RX8 will stomp the Z in handling is that although the RX8 will probably handle better, the Z is not going to handle like crap. It wasn't built just for people who wanted power. It will handle better than probably >90% of the cars on the road also and is good enough that most people who drive it will never hit it's limits. But they will probably more easily find a time to test the acceleration on the highway or just to pass someone somewhere. That said, I can't own a Z. I don't like the looks of it and it's too heavy for me.

One can also say then that the RX7 is no good either because the RX8 is supposedly better handling although less power. Personally, I would take a 7 over the 8 (if it was reliable).

I swear it's like talking to a wall. Please explain to me how good and bad handling is a subjective concept. Is that like saying good and bad acceleration is a subjective concept?

I tell ya what, you seem to be one of the only people focused on this Z beater philosophy and you're right, this probably isn't the car for you. I doubt most of the people (reasonable ones anyhow) aren't aiming for a 4 door 4 seater 249 provisional hp car to humiliate a 287hp torquey 350z around every bend and straightaway.

If laptimes are all that matter to you, you're probably better off with something like a corvette, or heck, buy a 97 supra and spend the money you save on a turbo and some new shocks. Almost guaranteed to torch any 350z you come up to.

I agree with you. I think some are over reacting to criticism of the car. I think partly it's because Mazda is marketing the car as a 'sports car' that can seat 4 people. The car seems more like competition for a sports sedan/coupe market that handles like a sports car, not the other way around. I think that this is the reason some of us are a little disappointed right now. We expected a sports car with sports car performance and it realistically isn't up to our expectations taht we formed from hearing Mazda's marketing spiel and from the 3rd gen RX7 performance. I really thought that this car would come out and be at least equal to it in everyway. It doesn't make it a bad car for what it really is, but it isn't what everyone is looking for. Just like some people want a G35 coupe, but some people think it's too cushy, 'not a true sports car' and have to have a Z. I am thinking that the RX8 is more like the G35 than the Z in terms of 'type' of car, and hopefully a 'real' sportscar will come out sometime.
I still want to see in it real life though. Who knows, maybe it will win me over. A friend of mine who I never thought in a million years would own a Honda, bought an S2000 after driving a friend's around the track. So anything is possible. And if I don't think it's everything that I want, then maybe it can be the wife's car! I wouldn't mind an RX8 and a future RX7 in the garage.

First up Iefuton, read through a thread before throwing in your 2 cents.

I love the 8. I will buy an 8. What I dislike are dilusional concepts over what this car will be, performance wise. Why? Because its only setting up the car for a disapointing release.

Handling is indeed a relative concept. Why? Because not everyone has the same skills, nor does everyone drive in a similar style. Why do drifters prefer rear wheel drive vehicles to all wheel drive cars? Duh. Believe it or not, some people who hang around tracks prefer some SLIGHT understeer.

When I say performance, I mean one thing.... the general ability of a car to get around a track quickly. The Z is going to romp the 8 at just about every track in the country. In my mind, that means the car is better "performance wise". Don't believe me? That's ok, we can just wait for Car&Driver to run some comparison lap times (I'm sure they will compare the 8, Z, and S2k before the year is up).

Does this mean the 8 is a poor performance car? No. But we should all realize that this is a "compromise" sort of design; don't build it up to be something it isnt so you can tear it down when it doesnt meet your expectations.

guess we stand in agreement then, regarding:

What I dislike are dilusional concepts over what this car will be, performance wise. Why? Because its only setting up the car for a disapointing release.

sorry bout the edit, hit submit accidentally =p

I think Mazda will mount a challenge and win... with the next RX-7.


The RX-8 is not in the same class as the Z, from a marketing point of view. It is a four seater. What car has has 4 seats, 4 doors, manual tranny and has options like DSC and NAV? (eg. IS300, G35 Coupe)

wieght
 

I think we will be surprised witht the weight numbers. Charlie Hughes, stood on his PULPIT @ SEVENSTOCK and decreed a weight of 2900lbs. to which the crowd fervently responded with an "AMEN"- he was very, i mean very confident in his numbers- we could be surprised.

He decreed on that faithfull day a price of 26,000 dollars- a max of 33,000- to which mazda delivered a price of 25,180- AGAIN the people rejoiced!

Remember project "gram force" to which the engineers took an entire car a part and saved grams off of every part-to save a toale of 100's of pounds- they are probably in the midst of this right now.

Mazda has always delivered exceptionally lighter cars to offset or entirely negate the differences and HP advantages that other manufacturers had.

LETS all WAIT for the final testing numbers to come in. THE comparison btwn, the z and the 8 will happen with SEVERAL magazines and I suspect the 8 will come out RIGHTOUS!

from morganrogers in the europe forum
 

there's another reason i like this car.

I have to laugh at the comment that the Z will romp the 8 on the track... it's just sad you believe that.

Let's start small first.. autocross. There are Mazda Miatas with 140 horsepower that will beat people in much more powerful cars. Granted there's a reason for this.. the autocrossing generally doesn't pass fourth gear and the more nimble the car the better in that regard. Miata is lightweight, very good handling stock, that will romp most cars out there, just because of its characteristics.

But you want a regular track... let's say Laguna Seca shall we?

Regular tracks make use of high gears and high RPMs. Agility is key but so is power, especially in the upper gears. Now I don't know how you say that the Z will be 'wooping' on the RX-8 when the Z's torque plummets after 4800 (its max). By 6000RPMs the RX-8 is ahead of the Z's torque.

This would make for an interesting matchup on a track, and in my mind a very close race. I don't think the Z is going to woop the RX-8 but if it wins, it won't be by much. And personally I'm okay with that.

We need to really stop comparing the 350Z and the RX-8. People that are looking into the RX-8 are not going to cross shop (for the most part) the 350Z, unless they are just rich and want what looks good and have no intention of ever going near a track.

G35, 330, IS300, Audi A4... these are the cars the RX-8 will probably compete against. Not the 350Z. We just need to get over that.

I dont think that is completely true. In fact, many people I know have looked at these two cars (and others) before deciding. Granted, you can say that the two cars just too different to be compared and thus are in different markets, BUT keep in mind this car is called the RX-8. RX to many people means performance as does the Z Nissan uses. Personally I think its stupid to compare the two cars, but the reality is, imo, that comparisons will be done. (maybe that is what you meant by "for the most part"?)

Also, what do you mean by "they are just rich"? The ability to get a Z or 8 does not mean you are rich. Ironically these cars are about performance on buget (i.e. original Z, rx-7 vs. more expensive cars). The fact that the stock FD could beat or match other cars and still be less expensive is impressive. To me, that is a big part of the RX series' appeal (that and its rotary).

If you are going to talk the talk.you have to walk the walk...mazda is marketing this as a "sports car..that happens to sit 4 people"..thus it is completely fair to compare it with similarly priced sports cars.

If you insist on comparing it to sports sedans...then you have to consider the rally cars...evo...sti..and WRX.....regardingthe first two... there is no comparison from an objective performance standpoint....the latter..I think the RX8 should win (it better being some ~ $5K higher in price).

BTW..I have noticed Mazda marketing their sporty family sedan (Mazda 6)..as a sports sedan.....could the same thing be happenning with the RX8?

If this thing comes in over 3,000 lbs., it will really take away from the inherent advantages of a rotary. As has been stated repeatedly, a high-reving. moderate - peak torque engine of the RX8 is best suited for lightweight sports cars. At 3,000+ lb..its going to not be far off from the 3,085 lb. turbo AWD WRX (which is a mass produced car). Again, just how much weight was put on from adding suicide doors and the related bracing? Hell, most sports sedans offer 2 door versions! For a sports car, I see little sense in this, especially since the front passengers still have to get out of the car to let the rear pasengers out.

I've waited 2 years for this car (putting off a new car purchase and driving my old 93 escort) with the impression of sports car performance, and anything less would be a huge dissappointment. I can accept it not being the fastest car in this group, but it should be competitive in terms of acceleration and dominant in handling. So far, the dominant handling has not been demonstrated. Rather, it is based on Mazda's great reputation. However, past history has also shown compromise cars..tend to give up performance (including handling).

At this point I'm looking at a base 6 speed...and hoping it will be significantly lighter than the other models with the "goodies." Again, I hope I'm completely wrong so I can have the car I've been waiting for!

Here is an interesting article for you guys.

http://www.autoweek.com/cat_print.mv...582&1351529848

We've all read it. I don't see what you want to point out.

Per rotary news:
"Know this however, this car has impressed two hard core rotorheads. This is a rotary sports car, while not a replacement for the raw FD3S RX-7, it is a refined, well tuned, predictable car, that it it's soul is a rotary."

If two Roto heads who have actually driven the car are giving it thumbs up, we can all calm down a little.

"Can't we all just get along"

*PUTS FLAME RETARDENT SUIT ON*

[sarcasm]
NO!!!! We need to see NUMBERS BECAUSE THATS WHAT MAKES A CAR GOOD!
[/sarcasm]

I will wait for the 300+HP MazdaSpeed Version...

Hate to bring this up, but it sounds like more damning with faint praise.:(

Those aren't the adjectives I wanted to hear. How about "exciting"? "Thrilling?" "Dynamic?" "sharp-handling?" "Must-have car of 2003?"

Their enthusiasm seemed quite contained. Sure, it is not an FD, but they could have said, "It's not an FD, but exciting in its own way..." or "It's not an FD, but it is a blast to drive..."

I look forward to the full review, but nothing was said here to alleviate my concerns about the driving character of the car. If anything, they moved me towards confirmation of them.

Don, if he wrote all the juicy details in the blurb people would start making up all kinds of ideas in their head and out loud bout the car..

Oh wait, you alreadi did that :p

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Hercules
[B]I have to laugh at the comment that the Z will romp the 8 on the track... it's just sad you believe that.




Hey Herc I'm with you. It's funny how performance wise the current 350z is no match for a stock 93-95 3rd gen Rx7 (or a 99-02 version for that matter) but yet somehow the 350z is suppose to miraculously out perform the Rx8. Lets see, the Rx8 has the fondation to be the SUPREME performer. The 350Z has all of these attributes: perfect 50/50 balance, light weight, high reving rotary with a nearly flat torque curve. "Oh damn I must be lossing my mind, those are the attributes of the Rx8" Ha ha ha. Any ways the only advantage the Z will have is acceleration(and we all know thats only a small segment when it comes to overall performance). Other than that the Z would be toast. As far as that statment about a magazine test goes, the Z guys better hope they dont compare the two at the track because, I would hate to see the 350Z tuck it's tall in between its legs and take it's ass to the house in humilitation!

When did the RX-8 become so holier-than-thou that it can’t be compare against certain cars? Which car you choose is wholly dependent on your priority and circumstances. And why wouldn’t people cross-shop against 350Z? Both are similarly price and both aspire to be sport car.

The 350Z and RX-8 are right on top of my list. I like the power of 350Z, but love the styling of RX-8. The 350Z’s high shoulder line and limited visibility left me feeling disconnected from the road. So for now, I choose the RX-8. But I will reserve my final judgment when I can test drive both back to back.

As for comparing both cars on a road circuit, it’s not simple as it seems. Unless the same driver drives both cars on the same track, it’s hard to take a number and equate it to performance. Even then, it’s just for bragging right nothing more. In the end, the driver skill level and experience will matter most.

I agree, but the RX-8 is a 4 seater and not a 2, thus GENERALLY cross shopping wouldn't happen.

But either way you are correct, it's every bit (packaging, handling, power, feedback, etc) that make the car, not just one aspect.

That said, I think the RX-8 is a better car for the money. We'll see in time though.

When that time comes... still seems so far away :( . I want my 8 :D .

The discussion of where the 8 will rank in the general pecking order of cars will continue long after it is finally released. What ever the final version turns out to be, I'm keeping my expectations low, just in case, so I'm not disappointed. I want to enjoy the car as total package, even if she'll be a jack of all trades and master of none. If I want to make her faster, I'll make her faster--surely, the big aftermarket companies in Japan are readying, if not finalizing, designs for upgrades to the 8.

This is a stretched comparison: but while the 8 may not pack the high power numbers as some others, having a vehicle with a lack of power has never stopped people from getting say--a Civic--and trying to make IT go fast, although at $30K+ I do understand the arguement why the 8 should get just a little bit more zoom. (^_^)

I also don't think this view is correct. Sure the RX-8 is a 4 seater, but I seriously doubt that anyone who needs to haul around 3 other people everyday will find the RX-8 adequate. It has less room than a BMW 3-series and from my experience that's a tight fit. (Maybe I'm just too tall :) )

I'm maried and have no kids and, like many other somewhat settled people out there, already have a "practical" car. (We have a Protege5 that's stuffed to its gills about every two weeks.) What we want now is a small sporty car. We've considered a Miata, FD RX-7, 350Z, S2000, and of course the RX-8. I prefer coupes, don't like to portliness of the 350Z or the reliability issues of the FD. That leaves the RX-8 (even without considering my unhealthy obsession with this car ;) )

I think more people are going to cross-shop than Mazda wants to acknowledge.

I would like to say that this much, that the RX-8 is only smaller than the 330Ci ON PAPER. Getting into the car you'll find a big difference, because the rear passengers put their feet underneath the front seats, and the front seats are elevated for that purpose.

I think it will take time, but read the articles that came out today from the UK and you'll know what I have already suspected for some time... the RX-8 will be worth every dime, and be thrilling to drive for any adventure or trip you want to take :)

I hope the seat isn't too elevated...I hate high driving positions..my father's focus feels like a truck cause you sit so high!

Production
 

One thing to keep in mind is that none of us, including folks at MNAO have actually seen a true, final actual regular production based RX-8.
Words like "provisional" are used for this reason. Also, with a continuing campaign to reduce weight, but without compromise, the weight will not be going up from3011 and "might" be alittle less.
Same with HP although I think were seeing what could be close to final in this department.

I think the RX-8 is, to its detriment, being compared to the wrong cars. Comparing the RX-8 to the Z doesn't make sense. The Z is a 2-seat sports car. The 8 is a 4-seat, 4-door (sort of) sports coupe. The Nissan the 8 really SHOULD be compared to is the Infinity G35. The G35 is basically a stretched Z with back seats added. In that case, the 8 compares very favorably.

Do yourselves and the RX-8 a favor and compare it to the right cars. If you want a REAL sports car, something to take on the Z and maybe even a Vette or two, wait for the RX-7. If, on the other hand, you're in the market for a G35 or an RSX, you would do well to give the RX-8 a spin.

Unfortunately, it's not that simple. The RX-8 is on the line (at least to me) between a sports car and a sports coupe. If you're in the market for a sports coupe, you compare it to the RSX, G35 Coupe, etc. If, however, you are in the market for a sports car (like me), it gets compared to other sports cars like the 350Z, S2000, etc.

Fortunately, I think the RX-8 will hold up well in either of these categories so I say: Compare away!

As far as the targeted weight, hp, etc, there are reasons Mazda, and other manufacturer's do this. To cover their butts.

In just the last couple years there have been problems from various manufacturers. Nissan has been the biggest culprit. When the new Q45 came out, I believe they advertised 345hp. After the car was released, it was tested several times against the Lexus LS430, a heavier car, with less aggressive gearing and 290hp, if I'm not mistaken. The Lexus was faster accelerating every time, by a rather large margin. In addition, most mags get times faster than manufacturer's claims, but not one single test was able to best the 5.9S 0-60 claim Infiniti was giving. What it came down to, the Infiniti was not making the claimed hp.

Then the SE-R came out. Was supposed to have 180hp, was lowered to 175 because Nissan didn't want the same problems they had with the Q. Most people say this car still isn't putting out 175 hp.

Ford. A few years back claimed a stated hp on their SVT Cobras. Turns out every one was made with ~20 fewer horsepower than claimed. Ford fixed every one to make claimed power, discontinued the Cobra for a year to fix it, and lost face.

Mazda. The 2001 redesign of the Miata added VVT to the 1.8L engine. Mazda did their tests on engines without CA emissions on it. 155hp is what came out. But at the last minute Mazda decided that every car they sell in the US will be 50 state legal, so they added the required CA emissions, which dropped the hp down to 142hp. Thing is they never remembered to retest the engine until after they claimed 155hp. People knew what was up. A car with a supposed extra 15hp and better top end because of VVT was running the EXACT same times as the 140hp car had. Mazda admitted the problem, offered to either buy back the cars for full refund price, or offer owners $500 plus some kind of extended warranty/service plan. Ouch.

So, now, they cover their butts. What they have listed there is probably what it will end up coming with, but just incase it is higher or lower, they add targeted just so these problems don't arise. For instance on the Mazda6, their target on the 2.3L I4 engine was 150hp, the car actually arrived with 160hp. Good, higher than expected. So who knows, maybe weight will be dropped and hp will up to 255. Ya never know.

Lastly, nothing like comparing how a car drives, accelerates, brakes, handles, feels, smells, etc when not a single person on this board (except maybe dan from rotarynews) has driven the RX-8, and even then it isn't final spec. I just wish all the Z bashing would end. I wish the RX-8 bashing would end. Everything right now is pure speculation, and it seems silly to argue over things that nobody has any experience with. Soon enough there'll be tests, then maybe we can start arguing about speed, handling etc. As soon as we drive them, then maybe we can argue about how a car "feels". But I don't think we should go saying a 8 can or can't do this, or that a Z is a pig who handles like a tank. We don't know and it's not true. The Z is a darn fine automobile, and better than most any car out there.

Boowana,
What do you mean by saying that no one at MNAO has seen the production version of the 8? I would think that by now the production version of the 8 would be out do to EPA, Crash Testing, and all the other regulations the 8 would have to go through in order to be approved for the American market. Especially since manufacturing is supposed to begin in April right.

Herc.
I think the 8 even though it has 4 doors is very cramped to be a true 4 seater. I was not very comfortable in the back seat. One of the main problems being that the center counsol takes up a considerable amount of room in the back so even though the space in the rear may look like its as room as the 330 I'm sure its not. Your movement is definetly restricted. Which would be great for kids though you could keep them separated and from kicking and hitting each other very well. HEHE.

To each his own fritts.. I haven't sat in the car yet so I don't know.. but if you've sat in the back of a 330Ci (COUPE!!), then the room there is VERY stuffy. I think the RX-8 will be better than that, if not similar.

I don't know why people don't think the RX8 is being cross shopped with cars like the Z? I know I am. And I know 2 other friends that are. We are all considering the RX8, Z, G35 coupe and S2000. None of us are locked into only a 2 seater or coupe/convertible. And we are kinda seeing the RX8 as similar to a 2+2 coupe anyway. We're just seeing what we end up thinking is the best car in the price range for us and what will 'grab' us during the test drives/appearance. So far we are each favoring different cars, but still wouldn't mind owning any of them.

I would agree with you on that. I too was cross shopping untill I found out how much the 350Z weighed and how small and cramped the S2000 was.

Someone made a comment about the Rx8 going into production in April! If thats the case, whats Mazda's process for these next 2 months? I mean they already have numerous Rx8 's roaming around California. Whats the holdup?

04' WRX STI
 

does anyone have any comments on the 04' wrx sti?

I'm deciding between dat and the 8....

0-60 in 4.7 sec and 1/4 mile in 13.4..

I'd say the STI is best bang for buck

Based on specs I can see why some people would compare the wrx with the RX-8 but to me they are very different. I see the wrx as a rally car and the RX-8 as a sports (or sporty) car. I personally am just not into the feel of a rally car so the wrx is not an option.

Re: 04' WRX STI
 

I also had considered the STi. The 2.5L turbo will certainly be a beast. It will probably be the fastest straight-line car for the money. I believe though, the RX-8 will out handle it.

The major reason why I crossed the STi off my list was its look. I never got over the bug-eyes WRX; the rear end was even worse. For '04, they just changed the headlight. Not a big improvement. In my eyes, the RX-8 beat the STi in look and styling in spades. To me, the RX-8 is the more rounded package. It's a great blends of performance, utility, and styling. Plus, rotary rules!

But if you love pig that fly, then the STi got your number.