New TSB out concerning flooding
03-12-2004, 12:29 PM
#1
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New TSB out concerning flooding
03-12-2004, 12:39 PM
#2
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awesome. so looks like they'll reflash without a CEL then. My plugs were replaced from a nasty flood caused at the body shop...I wonder if they'll reflash mine. Not to mention, it takes cranks twice as long now.
03-12-2004, 12:42 PM
#3
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I just read through the new TSB (01-011/04). Some initial comments:
1. Mazda now officially recognizes that short distance trips can result in a crank/no-start condition (ie flooding). Previous documentation (and email responses) only made an obscure reference to reducing engine life.
2. Mazda officially indicates that this is a warranty repair.
3. Mazda strongly implies that this situation is the result of having the RENESIS meet the US Tier 2 Emissions classification.
4. Mazda indicates that the customer (you and me) should only use the de-choke procedure listed on page 11 (pedal to the floor). There are several references throughout the procedure for the service technician to do arcane things to avoid damaging engine/exhaust components.
5. I could find no mention of this issue being more likely with the AT version of the RX-8.
6. I could find no mention of hotter plugs being part of the remedy.
7. The customer de-choke procedure is a prerequisite before towing to the dealership.
8. It is unclear if the specified PCM update reduces the possibility of flooding in the future or is simply needed for the following diagnostic steps.
In general, it sounds like this issue is here to stay and can happen to any vehicle at any time after shutdown without proper warm-up. I am not sure but they may be trying to say that this is a US emissions issue and not really a rotary problem (personal conjecture). I don't think any of this is a surprise. Perhaps a little disappointing. I personally would have preferred a fix.
1. Mazda now officially recognizes that short distance trips can result in a crank/no-start condition (ie flooding). Previous documentation (and email responses) only made an obscure reference to reducing engine life.
2. Mazda officially indicates that this is a warranty repair.
3. Mazda strongly implies that this situation is the result of having the RENESIS meet the US Tier 2 Emissions classification.
4. Mazda indicates that the customer (you and me) should only use the de-choke procedure listed on page 11 (pedal to the floor). There are several references throughout the procedure for the service technician to do arcane things to avoid damaging engine/exhaust components.
5. I could find no mention of this issue being more likely with the AT version of the RX-8.
6. I could find no mention of hotter plugs being part of the remedy.
7. The customer de-choke procedure is a prerequisite before towing to the dealership.
8. It is unclear if the specified PCM update reduces the possibility of flooding in the future or is simply needed for the following diagnostic steps.
In general, it sounds like this issue is here to stay and can happen to any vehicle at any time after shutdown without proper warm-up. I am not sure but they may be trying to say that this is a US emissions issue and not really a rotary problem (personal conjecture). I don't think any of this is a surprise. Perhaps a little disappointing. I personally would have preferred a fix.
Last edited by msrecant; 03-12-2004 at 12:52 PM.
03-12-2004, 12:46 PM
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for a second there I thought they had a solution... Good to know and very indepth step by step instructions none the less. I do find it interesting that they reccommend the L calibration for customers who have experienced flooding.
03-12-2004, 12:49 PM
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More importantly and contrary to what Mazda USA customer service told me, they also now indicate that flooding can occur due to a manual transmission stall - very, very not good:
This also means that this is (IMHO) a major safety issue that should be investigated by NHTSA (imagine stalling and being unable to restart in a bad place, like in the middle of a major intersection... as I've said before this is the argument they've made for forcing recalls due to bad fuel gauge level sensors and such.)
Examples: starting a vehicle and moving it to wash it, engine stall due to mis-application of clutch then restart.
03-12-2004, 12:55 PM
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Originally posted by BillK
This also means that this is (IMHO) a major safety issue that should be investigated by NHTSA (imagine stalling and being unable to restart in a bad place, like in the middle of a major intersection... as I've said before this is the argument they've made for forcing recalls due to bad fuel gauge level sensors and such.)
This also means that this is (IMHO) a major safety issue that should be investigated by NHTSA (imagine stalling and being unable to restart in a bad place, like in the middle of a major intersection... as I've said before this is the argument they've made for forcing recalls due to bad fuel gauge level sensors and such.)
An immediate stall from the clutch on a cold engine could cause it to happen. Not every stall. I have stalled mine several times. Even on a cold start in the garage and it didn't flood on me then.
This gets so overblown around here there should be a permanent ban on the topic.
greese
03-12-2004, 01:00 PM
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Don't misunderstand me, either; I certainly don't mean to say it could occur on every stall.
However, it takes a few minutes for the engine to warm up (at least five if you follow the recommendations in the Quick Start Guide) - more than enough time to pull out of a parking lot, get into traffic, and then blow a shift.
To me, the most important thing is that Mazda USA customer service told me that flooding would only occur if you shut the car off cold or stalled and then let the engine sit awhile.
Their example in the TSB text indicates that is not necessarily true...
However, it takes a few minutes for the engine to warm up (at least five if you follow the recommendations in the Quick Start Guide) - more than enough time to pull out of a parking lot, get into traffic, and then blow a shift.
To me, the most important thing is that Mazda USA customer service told me that flooding would only occur if you shut the car off cold or stalled and then let the engine sit awhile.
Their example in the TSB text indicates that is not necessarily true...
Last edited by BillK; 03-12-2004 at 01:07 PM.
03-12-2004, 01:17 PM
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Originally posted by NAVILESRX8
Oh great.....ammo for all the chicken littles...
Getting ready to hear every what-if scenario.....
Oh great.....ammo for all the chicken littles...
Getting ready to hear every what-if scenario.....
No offense Billk, you keep the realists in check.
03-12-2004, 01:24 PM
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Originally posted by BillK
Don't misunderstand me, either; I certainly don't mean to say it could occur on every stall.
However, it takes a few minutes for the engine to warm up (at least five if you follow the recommendations in the Quick Start Guide) - more than enough time to pull out of a parking lot, get into traffic, and then blow a shift.
To me, the most important thing is that Mazda USA customer service told me that flooding would only occur if you shut the car off cold or stalled and then let the engine sit awhile.
Their example in the TSB text indicates that is not necessarily true...
Don't misunderstand me, either; I certainly don't mean to say it could occur on every stall.
However, it takes a few minutes for the engine to warm up (at least five if you follow the recommendations in the Quick Start Guide) - more than enough time to pull out of a parking lot, get into traffic, and then blow a shift.
To me, the most important thing is that Mazda USA customer service told me that flooding would only occur if you shut the car off cold or stalled and then let the engine sit awhile.
Their example in the TSB text indicates that is not necessarily true...
03-12-2004, 01:26 PM
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Originally posted by Winning_BlueRX8
No offense Billk, you keep the realists in check.
No offense Billk, you keep the realists in check.
In the circumstances in which I drive, rather, and that's why I see it as an issue.
03-12-2004, 01:26 PM
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Note the DISCONNECT THE SECONDARY AIR INJECTION PUMP TO PROTECT THE CATALYTIC CONVERTER step. This seems a very good step to make sure, right now, that you can do blindfolded. When mine flooded last year neither the dealer nor I was aware of this step. A few hundred miles later, CEL appeared, and repair was: a new CAT.
03-12-2004, 01:34 PM
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Does this mean we can get the L reflash by saying we've heard about the flooding issue and are worried about it, or only if we've had the engine flood?
It sounds like you can only get it after a "crank/no start" situation has been verified. If this is the case, my guess is the "L" reflash is necessary, not as a fix, but for diagnostics.
If there's anyone who knows of anything new in the "L" flash that would help prevent flooding, please speak up.
It sounds like you can only get it after a "crank/no start" situation has been verified. If this is the case, my guess is the "L" reflash is necessary, not as a fix, but for diagnostics.
If there's anyone who knows of anything new in the "L" flash that would help prevent flooding, please speak up.
03-12-2004, 01:36 PM
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Originally posted by BillK
I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm trying to make a bigger issue out of it than it is, but frankly I know I'm most likely to stall when taking off after starting the car. I also work late hours and so it's occurred to me more than once "if I stalled now and the car flooded, how hosed would I be."
In the circumstances in which I drive, rather, and that's why I see it as an issue.
I apologize in advance if it sounds like I'm trying to make a bigger issue out of it than it is, but frankly I know I'm most likely to stall when taking off after starting the car. I also work late hours and so it's occurred to me more than once "if I stalled now and the car flooded, how hosed would I be."
In the circumstances in which I drive, rather, and that's why I see it as an issue.
03-12-2004, 01:39 PM
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Originally posted by loco4rx8
Does this mean we can get the L reflash by saying we've heard about the flooding issue and are worried about it, or only if we've had the engine flood?
It sounds like you can only get it after a "crank/no start" situation has been verified. If this is the case, my guess is the "L" reflash is necessary, not as a fix, but for diagnostics.
If there's anyone who knows of anything new in the "L" flash that would help prevent flooding, please speak up.
Does this mean we can get the L reflash by saying we've heard about the flooding issue and are worried about it, or only if we've had the engine flood?
It sounds like you can only get it after a "crank/no start" situation has been verified. If this is the case, my guess is the "L" reflash is necessary, not as a fix, but for diagnostics.
If there's anyone who knows of anything new in the "L" flash that would help prevent flooding, please speak up.
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