This might seem like a silly question but I need help...
08-09-2010, 09:29 PM
#51
rev match:
1. clutch in
2. select a lower gear and blip the throttle to bring up the rpm
3. clutch out
if done correctly, you should feel no jerkiness what so ever.
double clutching:
1. clutch in
2. select neutral
3. clutch out
4. blip the throttle to bring up the rpm
5. clutch in
6. select lower gear
7. clutch out
now if you do double clutch down shift, you can rev a bit higher than just plain rev match so that the engine rpm doesnt drop too low when you shifting into lower gear.
now heel and toe is for changing gear when you braking such as getting ready for a turn.
same procedure as above whether you just rev match or double clutch
the difference is the right foot where the toe is on the brake pedal and the heel is on the gas pedal to blip the throttle when doing either rev match or double clutch.
1. brake
2. still braking and clutch in
3. still braking, select a lower gear while using your right foot's heel to blip the throttle pedal to bring the rpm up
4. still braking, clutch out
5. repeat 2-4 for more down shifting
by doing this, especially with a RWD car is that when you brake the weight of the car shifts forward, the rear tires are much easier to lock up. by doing heel and toe, you match the rpm to the engine smooth out the down shifts to prevent locking the rear tires up.
heres some vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ULS7pnxyg
1. clutch in
2. select a lower gear and blip the throttle to bring up the rpm
3. clutch out
if done correctly, you should feel no jerkiness what so ever.
double clutching:
1. clutch in
2. select neutral
3. clutch out
4. blip the throttle to bring up the rpm
5. clutch in
6. select lower gear
7. clutch out
now if you do double clutch down shift, you can rev a bit higher than just plain rev match so that the engine rpm doesnt drop too low when you shifting into lower gear.
now heel and toe is for changing gear when you braking such as getting ready for a turn.
same procedure as above whether you just rev match or double clutch
the difference is the right foot where the toe is on the brake pedal and the heel is on the gas pedal to blip the throttle when doing either rev match or double clutch.
1. brake
2. still braking and clutch in
3. still braking, select a lower gear while using your right foot's heel to blip the throttle pedal to bring the rpm up
4. still braking, clutch out
5. repeat 2-4 for more down shifting
by doing this, especially with a RWD car is that when you brake the weight of the car shifts forward, the rear tires are much easier to lock up. by doing heel and toe, you match the rpm to the engine smooth out the down shifts to prevent locking the rear tires up.
heres some vids.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cPj9XXW25GA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H3ULS7pnxyg
08-10-2010, 12:55 AM
#52
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I'm reading this and I'm still new to the rx-8. Had mine maybe two months and I have an 04 GT 6-Speed. Why exactly are we supposed to red line the engine daily, is this one of those you need to do it on a daily basis, because generally I drive my 8 pretty easy, is that bad? I'm looking to make it last lol
Last edited by Badspeller13; 08-10-2010 at 01:25 AM.
08-10-2010, 01:25 AM
#53
Registered
I'm reading this and I'm still new to the rx-8. Had mine maybe two months and I have an 04 GT 6-Speed. Why exactly are we supposed the red line the engine daily, is this one of those you need to do it on a daily basis, because generally I drive my 8 pretty easy, is bad? I'm looking to make it last lol
by red line often, the build up doesnt have time to get thick to damage the engine and come out in smaller pieces, much less chance to get stuck between the seals.
08-10-2010, 01:51 PM
#54
Been trying to rev match alot now. Its easy for some gears but hard for others. From 4th to 3rd its real smoooth. But when i downshift from 3rd to 2nd its still a bit jerky when i ease off my clutch. Im guessing more gas when i rev match?
08-10-2010, 02:26 PM
#55
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My dad taught me to rev match at the same time he was teaching me about lines and signs and all that garbage, and I've rev matched UP AND DOWN ever since.
Lots of bad information in this thread, though several of you have it right
Rev matching means that when the clutch is pushed in, you are not letting the clutch out (and engaging it) unless the input shaft RPM and the output shaft RPM are at the appropriate speed so that the 2 gears are spinning the same speed, so there is no wear on the clutch.
Most of you with questions, go out and try this. Try shifting while you are driving without touching the clutch at all. Leave it engaged. Only use your wrist and the gas pedal.
Yes, it can be done. Gas in faintly if needed to relieve pressure on the gears allowing you to slide it out of gear. If upshifting, let the revs fall with light pressure on the stick shift into the gate you want. When the revs match, it will pop into gear. If downshifting, use the gas pedal to increase revs while having that same light pressure on the gate of the gear you want, and it will pop in when the gears match speed.
Note, don't drive around doing this all the time, use the equipment you have, but it should help demonstrate what is happening when you properly rev match. Clutching in and out when you rev match isn't much more than a safety net in case you don't get it quite right. It's also useful to know in case you have something fail in the clutch system and the clutch is stuck engaged, you can still drive it to a shop/dealer.
Rev matching isn't "required" but it makes driving significantly smoother and removes almost all wear on the clutch. The only clutch wear at all is when you don't rev match. Starting from stopped you aren't rev matching, since the right revs to match is 0rpm, which is ..um...stalled. So you slip the clutch, even if slightly. Wear.
If you let the revs fall to nothing as you shift up or down, and slowly let out the clutch to increase engine revs, all you are doing is wearing down the clutch, and doing it slowly enough you won't "burn" the clutch.
Burning the clutch is when the 2 sides of the clutch are not moving at the same speed, and either for long enough or big enough of a difference that the clutch material actually "burns" off quickly under the high stress/high heat. It smells alot like burning rubber, except with more of a sulfur smell to it.
When I up shift, I clutch in, shift to neutral, keep the shifter moving until I feel the light resistance before going into gear, and keep light pressure on the stick as the revs fall, and as they match the shifter pops in smoothly without complaint, and I instantly let off the clutch. All happens in ~ 1 second or so.
When I down shift, I clutch in, shift to neutral, blip the throttle, light pressure to the gear I want, when the resistance vanishes, it pops into gear and I let off the clutch. Happens in less than a second. Rev-matched downshifting into 1st is the hardest one to master, and in general even I don't bother. Rev-matched downshifting into 2nd and 3rd are almost pleasurable.
No need to worry about downshifting when the new revs will be 9k, it doesn't hurt the transmission or engine unless you aren't smooth. Just learn the max points. (For MT 2004-2008: ) Don't downshift to 2nd over 67mph. I downshift at exactly 67mph every day. Don't downshift to 3rd over 93mph. I downshift to that frequently 2009+ MT have different gearing that changes the MPH points. Just look at your MPH in each gear as you hit redline. Use that. It's the same speed for a reason.
Just get smooth at it in lower RPM, and you will naturally improve.
Over-rev on a downshift and you will get a lurch as the car briefly accelerates. Under-rev and you will get a lurch as your clutch plate acts like a brake disc briefly. Under-rev too severely, and you will slide the rear tires as they will spin slower than the car is traveling. It will feel like (and is commonly referred to as) locking up the rear tires, but you are really just sliding them as they spin slower than the car is traveling. You can't lock up the rear tires on a downshift actually, as a rear wheel lock-up while in gear means the engine isn't turning.
People love to quote "transmission parts are cheaper than brakes", and while they are right, not generating any wear on either of them is even cheaper. Anyone who generates excess wear on their transmission or clutch when down-shifting isn't rev-matching and needs to learn.
And those that thing that this is excess wear, then think about the clutch: Same speed on each side of the plate = no wear. Think about the gears, lower force/stress level than a full throttle acceleration = less wear than acceleration. Think about the fluid: Same spinning as under no load, cruise, or acceleration for the same gear/speed = no wear.
Just don't sit at redline for long periods of time, that is excess heat for the engine and transmission. Let it cool off!
Lots of bad information in this thread, though several of you have it right
Rev matching means that when the clutch is pushed in, you are not letting the clutch out (and engaging it) unless the input shaft RPM and the output shaft RPM are at the appropriate speed so that the 2 gears are spinning the same speed, so there is no wear on the clutch.
Most of you with questions, go out and try this. Try shifting while you are driving without touching the clutch at all. Leave it engaged. Only use your wrist and the gas pedal.
Yes, it can be done. Gas in faintly if needed to relieve pressure on the gears allowing you to slide it out of gear. If upshifting, let the revs fall with light pressure on the stick shift into the gate you want. When the revs match, it will pop into gear. If downshifting, use the gas pedal to increase revs while having that same light pressure on the gate of the gear you want, and it will pop in when the gears match speed.
Note, don't drive around doing this all the time, use the equipment you have, but it should help demonstrate what is happening when you properly rev match. Clutching in and out when you rev match isn't much more than a safety net in case you don't get it quite right. It's also useful to know in case you have something fail in the clutch system and the clutch is stuck engaged, you can still drive it to a shop/dealer.
Rev matching isn't "required" but it makes driving significantly smoother and removes almost all wear on the clutch. The only clutch wear at all is when you don't rev match. Starting from stopped you aren't rev matching, since the right revs to match is 0rpm, which is ..um...stalled. So you slip the clutch, even if slightly. Wear.
If you let the revs fall to nothing as you shift up or down, and slowly let out the clutch to increase engine revs, all you are doing is wearing down the clutch, and doing it slowly enough you won't "burn" the clutch.
Burning the clutch is when the 2 sides of the clutch are not moving at the same speed, and either for long enough or big enough of a difference that the clutch material actually "burns" off quickly under the high stress/high heat. It smells alot like burning rubber, except with more of a sulfur smell to it.
When I up shift, I clutch in, shift to neutral, keep the shifter moving until I feel the light resistance before going into gear, and keep light pressure on the stick as the revs fall, and as they match the shifter pops in smoothly without complaint, and I instantly let off the clutch. All happens in ~ 1 second or so.
When I down shift, I clutch in, shift to neutral, blip the throttle, light pressure to the gear I want, when the resistance vanishes, it pops into gear and I let off the clutch. Happens in less than a second. Rev-matched downshifting into 1st is the hardest one to master, and in general even I don't bother. Rev-matched downshifting into 2nd and 3rd are almost pleasurable.
No need to worry about downshifting when the new revs will be 9k, it doesn't hurt the transmission or engine unless you aren't smooth. Just learn the max points. (For MT 2004-2008: ) Don't downshift to 2nd over 67mph. I downshift at exactly 67mph every day. Don't downshift to 3rd over 93mph. I downshift to that frequently
2009+ MT have different gearing that changes the MPH points. Just look at your MPH in each gear as you hit redline. Use that. It's the same speed for a reason. Just get smooth at it in lower RPM, and you will naturally improve.
Over-rev on a downshift and you will get a lurch as the car briefly accelerates. Under-rev and you will get a lurch as your clutch plate acts like a brake disc briefly. Under-rev too severely, and you will slide the rear tires as they will spin slower than the car is traveling. It will feel like (and is commonly referred to as) locking up the rear tires, but you are really just sliding them as they spin slower than the car is traveling. You can't lock up the rear tires on a downshift actually, as a rear wheel lock-up while in gear means the engine isn't turning.
People love to quote "transmission parts are cheaper than brakes", and while they are right, not generating any wear on either of them is even cheaper. Anyone who generates excess wear on their transmission or clutch when down-shifting isn't rev-matching and needs to learn.
And those that thing that this is excess wear, then think about the clutch: Same speed on each side of the plate = no wear. Think about the gears, lower force/stress level than a full throttle acceleration = less wear than acceleration. Think about the fluid: Same spinning as under no load, cruise, or acceleration for the same gear/speed = no wear.
Just don't sit at redline for long periods of time, that is excess heat for the engine and transmission. Let it cool off!
Last edited by RIWWP; 08-10-2010 at 02:30 PM.
08-10-2010, 02:32 PM
#56
Registered
if you under rev, your car would slow down. if you over rev, the car would jump forward. its all about practice.
08-10-2010, 02:35 PM
#57
Registered
since the the design of the syncros and lock pin is that when theres a rotation difference, the lock pin would lock the gear out until the the rotation is the same.
1st gear the syncros need to work very hard to get the rotation the same.
if you double clutch you'll find the gear just pops in.
08-10-2010, 02:53 PM
#59
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haha, I love rev matching to 2nd when going 50 with the music up so the passenger (who was usually talking about how slow rx8s are) can catch a glimpse of what 159ft lbs of torque can feel like 
I actually have been practicing on very low, slow levels how to heel toe. Very goofy to get used to using 3 pedals with 2 feet but its cool to learn.
Unfortunately, its something you truly cant master without going to the track, I need to hop on that lol
I actually have been practicing on very low, slow levels how to heel toe. Very goofy to get used to using 3 pedals with 2 feet but its cool to learn.
Unfortunately, its something you truly cant master without going to the track, I need to hop on that lol
08-10-2010, 02:56 PM
#60
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My problem is foot vs pedal size. My toes already brush the joints and stuff above the pedal when my heel is on the floor. Shoes get caught on everything in sight when I am trying to move them around like that. I need some soft flexible shoes to even really try properly.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
08-10-2010, 03:47 PM
#61
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My problem is foot vs pedal size. My toes already brush the joints and stuff above the pedal when my heel is on the floor. Shoes get caught on everything in sight when I am trying to move them around like that. I need some soft flexible shoes to even really try properly.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
on a serious note, its easier to heel toe with a big foot than a little foot. Im a size 13 shoe size btw and I dont seem to have any problems haha.
08-10-2010, 03:51 PM
#62
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My problem is foot vs pedal size. My toes already brush the joints and stuff above the pedal when my heel is on the floor. Shoes get caught on everything in sight when I am trying to move them around like that. I need some soft flexible shoes to even really try properly.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
I however need to move my heels.
08-10-2010, 06:01 PM
#63
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My problem is foot vs pedal size. My toes already brush the joints and stuff above the pedal when my heel is on the floor. Shoes get caught on everything in sight when I am trying to move them around like that. I need some soft flexible shoes to even really try properly.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
Hah, how tight would it be if someone could deliver a telescoping wheel mod? Why Mazda decided to omit this feature in a car of this caliber is beyond me. I'd kill for the option.
08-10-2010, 06:12 PM
#64
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My problem is that I'm nearly 6'3 with most of it being long gangly legs. I can rev match through throttle jabs all day long, but heel/toe is definitely my foil. I'm working on it, but I just can't find a comfortable position that allows me to contort my legs and knees beneath the wheel to do it effectively. I think I just need more practice, but it would be SO much easier with a damn telescoping wheel. Any other tall and lanky doofuses out there with some advice?
Hah, how tight would it be if someone could deliver a telescoping wheel mod? Why Mazda decided to omit this feature in a car of this caliber is beyond me. I'd kill for the option.
Hah, how tight would it be if someone could deliver a telescoping wheel mod? Why Mazda decided to omit this feature in a car of this caliber is beyond me. I'd kill for the option.
For me, this yields a good driving position where I am able to comfortably have both hands on the wheel, my legs are in proper position for heel toe, and I have headroom (with a helmet, it may rub the headliner).
Give it a shot, as goofy as it sounds, being a bigger guy in a very small car makes for difficult seating position but it is possible. I also invested in a seatbelt harness which keeps my *** in place so I dont slide all over.
08-10-2010, 07:23 PM
#65
My problem is foot vs pedal size. My toes already brush the joints and stuff above the pedal when my heel is on the floor. Shoes get caught on everything in sight when I am trying to move them around like that. I need some soft flexible shoes to even really try properly.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
One of the few down sides to having a big ...um ... shoe.
My problem is that I'm nearly 6'3 with most of it being long gangly legs. I can rev match through throttle jabs all day long, but heel/toe is definitely my foil. I'm working on it, but I just can't find a comfortable position that allows me to contort my legs and knees beneath the wheel to do it effectively. I think I just need more practice, but it would be SO much easier with a damn telescoping wheel. Any other tall and lanky doofuses out there with some advice?
Hah, how tight would it be if someone could deliver a telescoping wheel mod? Why Mazda decided to omit this feature in a car of this caliber is beyond me. I'd kill for the option.
Hah, how tight would it be if someone could deliver a telescoping wheel mod? Why Mazda decided to omit this feature in a car of this caliber is beyond me. I'd kill for the option.
I have a size 14 foot roughly and it makes it hard... I need to practice as well as move my seat to a better postion for Heel-Toe...
Also RIWWP:
You are correct with all of your info but I dont think even if I was the best driver out there I would shift into 1st below 12mph roughly, even with double clutching...
I double clutch correctly and it stared making my 2nd gear grind occasionally, seeing how that I dont think id ever have enough ***** to try 1st gear... damn
08-10-2010, 07:51 PM
#66
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"roughly"Couldnt agree more. No shift should ever be rough. If you cant shift with a light touch, you are doing it wrong.
Most people should stay away from 2nd to 1st over about 15mph.
08-10-2010, 08:20 PM
#67
Me? I wouldnt try it, this transmisson leans more towards the weak side...
08-10-2010, 08:53 PM
#68
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