GoRacer

I know most guys want it to be a pure sports car but I don't beleive that's the sole intent. It is supposed to be a sports car with luxary added to it as opposed to say BMW which is a luxary car with a sporty feel. It should kick the 350Z's *** in performance and at the same time make the Lexus buyer go "ooooh aaaahhh"!

Anyhow, I beleive the target market is for the guys that were forced to sell their sports cars and by SUV because they were married with children.

With that being said: The RX-8 will need luxary appeal for those in the Lexus SC430, BMW Z3, Porsche Boxster and even Jaguar market. Yes it will need cup holders! Wood grain dash, navigation system, cell phone integrated stereo (similar to onstar), HID lights...

wakeech

uh, i think you've got the entirely wrong image of what Mazda is, never mind the RX-8...
it's okay!! i'm not trying to flame you or anything... it'd be cool, but that's just not what the RX-8 is going to be, mostly 'cuase they won't sell any that way.
that may be the market they are targetting, but not the way they're doing it!! besides, none of the cars you mentioned are real competitors with this car in the slightest: they are all far too different... it's not a roadster, it's suppost to be far less luxury than an SC430 (more affordable), and there's not a Jaguar made that's really sporty in the sence the RX-8 is (no, not even the X-Type).

HID lights are always good, but to save on sticker they may just omit them...
but really, if you're thinking a Lexus competitor, the IS300 is the only car in thier line up which may be comparable... other than that, it's just not really what Mazda wants this car to be.

**afterthought: the next 7, WHEN it comes, will be far more luxury oriented, and be all you've outlined, minus the gentlemenly stuff like wood trim... it's a more macho ride than that.

GoRacer

I know it's a real sports car but the I don't beleive the target buyer will be in his/her 20-30's but more like in his/her 30-40's. These buyers would allready be looking at Corvette's, Porches and alike. For the price range, yes the Lexus IS300 is comaprible but just like the BMW, it's a sporty sedan and not a sports car. The Corvette is a two seater. So that leaves the 350Z, Porsche Boxster, etc. If you want it to compete with a sporty seden then theres the IS300 and Subara WRX in the same price range.

I do not see it in the Car & Driver shoot out with the IS300, WRX and Audi S4. I see it with the 350Z and Corvette C6.

I think the RX-8 is in a catagory or market all by itself but how do you get buyers from the other catagorys to switch over?

The younger guys will want a bone stock R1 version and the older guys will want a luxary touring version.

Sputnik

A wood grain dash? Do you actually think that a fake plastic wood grain dash would attract high-end buyers?

When you're putting a car together for less than $30k, you can either have it make a half-assed attempt at being everything, or you can focus on a couple of things, and do them well.

---jps

Sputnik

Take a look at the age poll thread that was started recently.

Also, look at the cars you're comparing to the $30k loaded (expected) RX8:

350Z = $36k (loaded)
Corvette = $45k (base)
Boxster = $45k (base)
IS300 = $35k (loaded)

We'll have to see once Mazda puts an official number out, of course, but it's like you're comparing a Miata to a Z3. Although some buyers might be considering both, they are very different.

---jps

GoRacer

$30k was the base price of the RX-7 and it went over $42k for the Touring model.

$30k loaded that means the base price would have to be under $25k?

What other sports cars have rear seats?
350ZX, Porsche...
Sporty sedans in the same price range?
BMW, Subaru, Audi, Lexus...

Take a look at Fords retro Thunderbird selling for $15k over sticker!

All the young RX-7 owners want a 4th gen RX-7, not an RX-8. I see the market to be the older guys that had to sell their 7's for sedans or SUV's.

GoRacer

Which has the same two tone (back/blue)color scheme as the RX-8 (black/yellow) and the options will probably be the same as well.

http://www.miata.net/faq/brochures/2000/[/url]

Quick_lude

I still can't believe a Miata sold for $30K US.. wow..

As I see it this is the beauty and curse of this car.. It looks to be so versatile.. Kinda in its own market.. Is it a sports car? Touring coupe? Sporty coupe? I hope Mazda offers two or three different flavours eventually to appeal to different markets.
Myself I'd like a R version, kinda like the 350Z Track. Light weight, good brakes, maybe more power.

Grimace

Wood grain dash? Ewwww. Not on my car. I don't even want leather. (A nice cloth like BMW's Jacquard fabric would be ideal).

The estimated price is ~26-28000 US for a base, and 30-32000 US loaded. This car will be priced well under the old RX-7. Mazda is not going to shoot itself in the foot twice by going too far upscale.

Sputnik

I wouldn't base any assumptions of the RX8 price on what the RX7 cost, they are two totally different cars. That's like trying to establish the MR2 Spyder prices based on what the MR2 turbos cost five years beforehand.

Depending on what options Mazda has for the RX8, there might not be as big of a spread between base and loaded as with other cars. Sure, the 350z has a huge swing, but look how many different build options you can get. Now, if there are big-buck items like navigation available, then I would agree that the swing would be larger.

Quote:

Take a look at Fords retro Thunderbird selling for $15k over sticker!

Again, you're comparing apples to oranges. The RX8 will (hopefully) be a mass-production car, while the T-bird is a limited production car with a lot of hype inflating the price. Besides, are you sure that they are still selling $15k over sticker, or was that just when they first came out (heck, the Miata did more than that)?

---jps

RX - 8

haha he wants a RX-8 type R

Grimace

Mazda has made "R" versions of its sports cars in the past, like the RX-7 R1, and the Miata R.

babylou

The 10AE Miata stickered at $28,225 including AC and freight but sold for about $25k. I know cuz I have one. The only other options available were ABS and the removeable hardtop.

Quick_lude

Har dee har har... :p
I don't care what they call it.. R,S,X,Y or Z.. I want a track model. .

Rich

There's another thread on this exact topic, you might want to read it to see what's been discussed before. Here's the link: http://www.rx8forum.com/showthread.php?threadid=402

Here's what I posted on that thread:

NNNnnnoooo! All I kept thinking as I read your post is "add lightness, not luxury". Every luxury item adds weight, which hurts every facet of a car's performance.

The market place is extremely crowded with cars in the 20-35k price range that offer some level of performance and luxury for 4-5 people. Here's a brief list off the top of my head:

WRX
Audi 1.8
Acura TL Type S
Acura RSX
Nissan Maxima
Nissan Altima
BMW 3 Series
Jaguar X-Type
a few Lexus models
MB C-class
VW Jetta
Volvo S60

and I'm sure I missed many others. There is no way Mazda can compete in this diverse segment if they fit in in any way. Mazda just doesn't have the image that buyers of these cars who care about luxury want. What Mazda does have is the Miata, RX-7, and rotary engine's performance image. In my opinion, if they try to add luxury items and compete against these other options, they will miss the target that is sitting dead in their sights right now. The RX-8 could be the best performance option for someone in this market, along with the WRX. In a nutshell, competing against other makers in terms of luxury will put them into a tremendously competetive market where they already have a check against them. Or, they could fill a niche that is not nearly as competetive by blowing away the others in terms of performance. If they try to do that and add weighty and expensive luxo items, they'll miss the performance and price benchmarks that it seems to me that they're aiming for.

Sputnik

Yeah but, I didn't think the R1 RX7 or the Miata R ever made it to these shores. At least not in the true "R" form...

You might end up having to build up your own track model. Get the lightest model (might not necessarilly be "base"), add some bracing, some good-quality coilovers, possibly bushings, swaybars. I don't know if you'd have to upgrade a set of brakes with 14" rotors considering the weight of the car, but we'll have to see.

Hopefully, we won't have to upgrade the radiator for it to survive on track (like the FD owners have), or do something else major like that.

---jps

Quick_lude

I believe there was an R1 model for the NA RX-7. Just not sure if it was the same as the Japan R model.

boowana

Look at the 350Z. isn't theresix models ranging from $26K to 35K? They did that to broaden the appeal of the car. In other words, sell mre cars.
We definelty want this car to be VERY SUCCESSFUK in order to insure the longevity of the renesis engine for one thing. The more cars they sell, the better off we'll be. I hope they make lots of different versions that will appela to a broad range of buyers. Pick the one that you wnat and let others do the same.
Remember also, Mazda has ZERO presence in the lucrative near-luxury/luxury market. I think until they do fill this void, they would be wise to have a luxo-version for those that want it.:o

GoRacer

I don't beleive Mazda shot it'self in the foot with the RX-7 pricing. That's rediculous, the Supra started at $40k and the RX-7 started at $30k and they both faired equal on the Car&Driver shootout!

As far as I know the 10th anniversary Miata was not an R version. Just color coordinated with a bages and it sold for over $30k in '99.

If anyone noticed the 2002 Auto Show. The RX-8 got only about 20 sec and no enthusiasm whatsoever but the 350Z got two min with all the oooh's and aahh's. Mazda isn't being taken seriously!

The RX-8 "NEEDS" to make car of the year to get respect, whether it be by winning at the race track or out classing the big boys with more/better luxary for the buck.

zoom44

but then they both disappeared from these shores because not enough people were buying them at those prices

Grimace

GoRacer: thats not a R-edition Miata you are thinking of, you're refering to the 10th Anniversary car. There was an R version of the Miata, from 1994-1997. Sport suspension with Bilstein shock absorbers, rear spoiler, front air dam, rear skirt, aluminum alloy wheels and Torsen limited-slip differential, power steering and automatic were not available. (http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/5361/94.html) They are sought after and pretty rare... I'd love to get my hands on one.

There were several "R" packages for the RX-7. The earlier ones in particular were hard-knuckled sports cars with no compromises.

By the way, I wasn't saying the RX-7 was overpriced. It was a bargain for such exotic performance. But the reason the RX-7, 300ZX, and Supra left the market is because North Americans were no longer willing to pay that kind of money for high-end sports cars. The market just died.

Finally, years later, Nissan brought back the Z at prices much cheaper than before to avoid making the same mistake. Now Mazda is doing the same with the RX-8, and I'll bet my first-born that it'll come in MUCH cheaper than the RX-7 did. The Supra is coming back too for 2004 or 2005, and is rumoured to be much less than before in terms of price.

Quotes from R&T, Feb 2002, page 49. re: RX-8:
"Essentially, what we want at Mazda is a family of sports cars globally. We want one in the high-end segment - in the $40-5000 range - and then one where the RX-8 will be slotted and, of course, a compact roadster."

(The high end segment car he's talking about is the possibility of the RX-7 coming to our shores again)

"...we need to remember the 2-door sports car segment is a fickle one. You introduce a car, and its not for 18-24 months, then it dies off. We wanted to produce a new car (RX-8) to offer the performance of a sports car but with better sustainability and return on the market."

Grimace

From my internet live stream from the 2002 auto show, the RX-8 may have only got a 20 second mention from Mazda (they had a big long speech about the 6) but almost every question afterward was about the RX-8, and the crowds around the 8 were incredible.

Sure the 350ZX drew a lot of attention too, but the 8 was no wallflower.

Donny Boy

Everything's fine, except I'm not a wood grain dash fan. Sat nav etc., yes.