Lawsuit Against Mazda, regarding Horsepower?
 

This week, a coworker told me after going to an Auto Show, to keep my eye open for news about Mazda being sued for misrepresenting the horsepower on the RX-8s. And, that Mazda is extending the warranty on the vehicles because of this lawsuit.

Has anyone heard anything about this?

Thanks
RadioFreq

Since Mazda already compensated the early owners effected by this what exactly is the “loss” that they will claim?

the issue is Mazda still misrepresents the power output of the engine to it's owners/prospective owners. If it were a class-action, I'd sign up. 1.3L 215hp...that's how Mazda should have marketed the 8. That'd have been 'honest'.

Yeah, and sueing is absolutly the best way to go. We'll make so much money and feel really good about ourselves afterwards... THAT'll teach them! :rolleyes:

Seriously, the only people who "win" in a class action lawsuit is the lawyers.

Leave mazda alone.

What they should do, is give us back the "A" flash, and a free CAT when it needs it. :)

and we get a $500 coupon off the next new Mazda we buy or free oil changes.

I'd rather have a free Mazdaspeed super or turbo charger. :D

I did a web search and could NOT find any current lawsuits on the 8. Now, that doesn't mean there aren't any...it just means I could not find them!!

I have a buddy that works for MazdaUK. I'm gonna drop him an email...stay tuned.

- Irish :cool:

who cares. the car is still nice in my book. if anythin' i wouldn't mind a coupon for some MS stuff. :D

I don't get the point of such law suits. If I buy a car I'll certainly test drive it (unless I preordered it, but Mazda has already settled that case). If I test drive it, I know how it feels and make my decision. If it feels right, it feels right. And if it doesn't, it doesn't. But suing the manufacturer for what is probably a change of mind or just the desire to make a few bucks from a law suit just because you think you can ... I don't even want to be able to understand this attitude.

:confused:

Thank you. My point exactly.

If you don't like the 8, the answer isn't sueing Mazda. The answer is to go buy a volvo or something...

The issue was settled long ago - early buyers of the car could get all of their money back if they wanted if they were dismayed at the HP claims- that got Mazda off the hook for any future lawsuits.

Your co-worker doesn't know what he is talking about.

Huh? Where do you get 215 hp from? :confused:

The issue is that a few people think that Mazda still misrepresents the power output of the engine. There's been absolutely zero hard proof or evidence offered that this is true - and the burden of proof will be on the complainants to prove the engine is over-rated beyond the legally allowable variances to the published power rating. Once a gang gets a Renesis on an engine dynamometer and runs the tests under the SAE-mandated testing methodology, then someone might have a case. Until then, it's all BS.

Regards,
Gordon

can i see some pics of your engine on an engine dyno?

I thought I heard Racing Beat put the Renesis on an engine dyno and it consistently put out 212-219?

They had one on a dyno when we were there. I didn't see any plots but they had the K&N filter on it to test it (so they could decide what to use for their intake)

I would agree though that the car puts out 210-220 horses not 238. Not sure what happenned to those 18-28 horses but I'm willing to bet that they're locked up in that ECU.

Yep, every dyno run, every 1/4 mile run, and even RBs engine dynos pointing to there being no way it's making 238 at the crank is absolutely "zero hard proof or evidence". You baffle me Gord, I guess ignorance is bliss...

Since the 8 is just a bit slower than the Z I guess Nissan should be sued too. If the 8 is really 210-220 then the Z must only be about 240 or so. lol.

Oh, I think the 238 HP corresponds to the trap speeds just fine. In fact, no one questioned the HP figures when the 250 HP rating existed based on the car's performance.

I pulled the number out of my arse - My reply read: "Mazda should have advertised 1.3L and 215hp" and there would have been ZERO complaints, because the car performs up to 215-220? hp.

There are plenty of replies here - especially one pointing to racing beat's 216hp engine dyno, which suggest mazda was optimistic at best, fraudulent at worst. Look at the boosted performance of the engine...240whp...that's substantially below what I think a rwd car with 238hp + 7psi should be at (with the variables left out for the sake of argument - because I KNOW...I just KNOW some math wizzard will try to reply and 'prove' how it's impossible to guess what power would be, blah blah blah - Trust me. Most of us have around cars long enough to make some educated guesses on power gains with mods.). I simply can't accept what the alternative would suggest - the car is losing 30% of it's power thru the drivetrain.

Don't - please everyone - don't throw the same old rhetoric of "Well, if you liked the car when you bought it, why would you care if it even had only 150hp??"
A test drive is not the end-all in judging a car's abillity to deliver on it's promises.

When the customers are sold product 'a' (238hp), they should not get product 'b' (210-220hp). Simple.

Did you miss the part where I specified Run your 1/4 miles and rear wheel dynos to your hearts content, but the 238 is SAE at the flywheel, and no lawyer who doesn't chase ambulances should touch a case contesting an SAE flywheel HP measurement rating without having a competitive SAE flywheel HP measurement of his own.

Further - you obviously also missed the part where I said . From what has been discussed previously, a manufacturer is allowed a 5% variance from the published HP figures before they have falsely advertised. Now, 95% of 238 hp is 226 - so Mazda only has to be providing 226 flywheel HP to be within the variance permitted.

Ignorance must be bliss, and it permits these ridiculous flights of fancy. Come down to earth, and actually KNOW just what the hell you're supposed to be challenging before giving in to this sensationalist crap. Seriously, are you willing to put up a million dollars or more up front for the lawyers to bet that Mazda can't prove their engines are making a minimum of 226 SAE flywheel HP? Get real - we aren't talking about whether the engine actually makes 238 hp, we're talking about how ridiculous it is to suggest that there should be a class action lawsuit over the 238 hp rating. I would be willing to bet that such a lawsuit would fail miserably.

FWIW, RB never suggested their dyno tests were SAE-procedurally compliant. They run their dyno tests for their own analysis, but it isn't to submit a compliant HP rating. Care to guess what differences would result from a modified procedure? Do you think there might be an extra 5 hp to be found from controlled parameters or adjustments to standards? Hmmm...

Regards,
Gordon

I can't speak for all of you, but I usually don't push a car to the limit during a test drive, or even push a car hard enough to see if it has enough power to feed my need, i looked in Mazda's brochere to see what the car was capable of, personally, my car has been sitting all winter and it is getting slower by the day in my mind. i have the m- flash and i hate it! I only get 16 mpg - shouldn't we have a 13 second car if its going to suck g asssss like that? Just a thought, i love my car :D

When customers are sold product 'a' (0-60 in 6.2 seconds by Mazda's published specs), and receive product 'a' (0-60 in 5.9 - 6.1 seconds by independent testing published by R&T, MT, C+D, etc), where's the problem? How do you KNOW you're getting 210 or 238 hp? If the performance is as advertised and published by the manufacturer, how is there ANY problem?

Why would you care if some bozo who can't control or account for the PCM fail-safe modes that prevent proper rear wheel dyno testing generates only 180 rwhp, when the on-the-road performance is there?

Should Mazda have warned "CAUTION: This is a high-revving engine with a high torque peak. Extracting maximum performance acceleration from this vehicle may require extra skill beyond the capability of the average weekend racer. That doesn't mean that the vehicle isn't capable of this performance, it means that it takes an expert driver to extract that performance, and YOU aren't capable of extracting it".

Ike has to concur that there are drivers out there who can match the magazine test times, Judge Ito and Polak to name just two. He usually chooses to blissfully ignore those and keeps going back to others who haven't achieved the similar times as proof that the hp is missing. Sorry, did someone say something about ignoring 1/4 mi runs?

Regards,
Gordon

Gord, great points and this:

...is a good example of what's wrong with the US. I think Mazda should say that..., just like McDonalds has to put:

"CAUTION: Contents may be hot" on their coffee cups.

Warnings like that only exist because some of us American's aren't that smart. ;)

I think I'll sue GE and Whirlpool because their ice from the freezer is really cold. There should be a warning on that. :D

The last "class action lawsuit" in which I was on the "winning" side, I received compensation of something like a whopping $2.39 (I'm sure the lawyers made millions).

Gee I can't wait to buy another coffee eight years down the road... :rolleyes:

scottmhr1 the 350z weighs nearly 200pounds more than the Rx8

its like measuring horsepower at the flywheel or the wheel, maybe you guys are saying 215whp while they are talking about the 238fhp

i know many cars that are rated at 200hp only outputting 185whp or so. its all a given here.

its kinda stupid to have to guess where they are measuring from it should simply be stated.........the wheels??the flywheel?? the crank??............hey I got a new one, they should meaure hp at the rotor! before it has any loss at all! will it still be a legit measurement??maybe thats where they got the 250 from in the first place. :cool:

on another note if the cars performance is up to par then I dont think there should be a problem, now if they claimed 5.9-6.1 seconds and people are getting 6.8 to 7.0 seconds that would be a problem

Mazda already gave peeps $500 or free maintenance when they had to revise hp from 250 down to 238. They know the car isn't making 238 but they just stick by their guns and deny it when each 8 owner complains to them about the lack of HP. If they acknowledge it, then tonz of 8 owners will be crying bloody murder.

Who gives a crap! Trade in in for a 350Z! Then you can sue them for the same crap!


Jeez!

I got 18 extra horses on my farm that need a car to get a ride in! Want some free horse power? Along with the shovel?

Send your address.

$500 AND free maintenance...

Ok, here is my question. I keep seeing everyone talking about the 210-220hp and i know the dealership advertises 238. When i bought my 8 i knew the 238hp the dealership was telling me was at the flywheel so i knew the power at the wheels was gonna be less. What im wondering is why are there so many people calling bloody murder when they don't see the 238 on a dyno? Do they relize that all dynos will give different results based on the anything from the condition of the car, to the dyno itself. I am just currious as to what the actual wheel hp is and i have yet to see actual rating on any dyno.

Dynos range from 165 to the high 180s got the most part, if the car were actually making 238hp you'd see around 200whp. Drivetrain loss with a RWD is pretty standard stuff so you do the math... As Gord pointed out there has to be a 5% difference before legal action can be taken. So I have some more math for you... Consider that the RX-8 was first presold with 250hp which was later revised to 247, no problems there, still within the legal limit. So then people start dynoing their 8s and a stink is raised on these boards and other places. Mazda claims it's a result of changing the ECU mapping at port due to emissions standards. Now do the math of what % difference 250 and 238 is, then figure out what the % difference is for 237.

The 238 number wasn't revised because of some SAE tests or Mazda dynos, your cars have 238hp on the dealer sticker because some overpaid lawyers thought it would be the safest and least costly number for Mazda.

Exactly...

For all those that are so disappointed with Mazda, go buy a Honda S2000. The advertised HP is 240 and the 2004's are putting down 210-220hp on the dyno. Problem solved :rolleyes:

Well, the only dyno I've actually seen done in 5th gear (you know, the 1:1 ratio gear, the gear that gives you the lowest drivetrain losses, the gear the 15-20% drivetrain losses applies too) was done by Ito and he has 19x at the wheels a long damn time ago.

You are not going to get a 15-20% drivetrain loss dynoing in 3rd gear like everyone here seems to enjoy doing because inertial drivetrain losses are proportional to the square of drivetrain acceleration - which on a dyno comes down to which gear you use. Plus you are not getting the benefit of the power being directed straight through the tranny in any gear except for 5th.

Cars are certified prior to release. And I can't imagine that HP is irrelevant for type certification, because it's a parameter of major importance. Customers, insurance companies, basically everyone is interested in it. Certification usually means that the manufacturer provides the certification authority with evidence. Evidence means engineering data, test procedures, test protocols and so on.

Back when the preorder desaster happened, the car was probably not certified yet, but now it is. Therefore I'm pretty much certain that Mazda would win a law suit anyway.

Nobody is calling bloody murder because of not seeing 238 on a dyno - people are complaining because we see wheel dyno numbers which point to either EXCESSIVE drivetrain loss, or Mazda's inadequate hp numbers.

the car was not pre-sold with 250. that number was ALWAYS listed as Target HP. the day the pre-sale went live that number was changed to 247 hp.

the last part is correct- they, as far as was said back then, did not take any engines out and re -rate them with the new flash etc for the current published number. they ran some tests with cars then talked it over with the lawyers and came out with a published spec that can be proven in court. within 5%. they stated as much in the letters. there wont be any class action that will succeed in this matter.

238 x .75 = 178.5. considering i have seen dyno numbers published on this board(and in person) between 162 and 192 that seems to be a good median number. funny how MOST dynos do show around 180. figure computer safe modes and dyno/conditon variances and it seems like 25% drive train loss or less is a pretty accurate number. what's excessive about 25% drive train losses?

I find it interesting that the allowable error range is 5% and 5% from mazda's stated 250 comes out to exactly 327.5, or rounded up as 238. Either mazda got extremely lucky and the engine conveniently produces right at the edge of the allowable error rate or mazda is lying.

Now, I am not complaining about the car, which I think is excellent, but that doesn't take away from what most people expected from this car when Mazda stated specs.

Companies are putting turbo's on these cars and getting 250-260 and scratch thier heads wondering why the turbo's can't produce more then a few hp, blaming it on the ecu's, but never considered that the base 238 might not be correct. If the current dyno's are even close to the truth then the car is running somewhere between 200 and 220hp, putting this car into the same power range as an acura rsx, mitsu eclipse's and a few others. Now I know our cars look tons better then thiers, but does it look 10k better? Ex. would you buy a special edition corvette that looks exactly like the big boy but only pushed 125 hp. Don't tell me that hp doesn't matter.

GIRLS in the house, would you continue to date a man when you found out that everything he told you on your first date was a lie?
I won't ask the guys because we all know the answer :D

How can we believe anything Mazda tells us about this car? Gas milage? life of the renesis? clutches blowing up after 15k miles? 15k tires?

sorry so long...

Don't want to go over this old debate again... https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ght=RX-8+250hp

But with all the publications, brochures, etc, etc going around stating 250hp long after people had ordered, you've got to think the 250hp number was taken into account when they came up with 238hp.

Also found this post as when I did my search, good for a chuckle if you're bored. 20/30mph hahahahaha.

https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ght=RX-8+250hp

Interesting, but purely coincidental.

Mazda never published an official rating of 250. That was the target in pre-production materials. When the official announcement of the RX-8 was made, the official rated power was 247 SAE net HP (flywheel, as all SAE net ratings are). In August 2003, Mazda withdrew that 247 rating and re-rated the engine at 238. That 238 number officially replaced the 247, so 247 became irrelevant. Mazda offered to buy back or otherwise compensate those who bought the RX-8 when it was rated at 247, so whoever had a 247-rated RX-8 was compensated and had to officially accept that compensation and sign a legally binding document to that effect. At that point, the 247 numbwer became history, and irrelevant to any future discussions of RX-8 actual power ratings.

So - since your initial assumption was wrong, your analysis and conclusions are wrong. Mazda neither got extremely lucky nor lied.

Regards,
Gordon

Geez, people who live in glass houses... ;) (referencing Ike's 'ignorance is bliss' comment to me yesterday).

Ike, quit making this crap up. Nobody ordered a 250 hp car. The RX-8 was announced at the NAIAS in Detroit in January 2003. AT THAT TIME, the official hp rating was 247. The pre-order program began AFTER that NAIAS introduction. EVERY publication, brochure, etc. etc. from that point on stated 247. There were NO brochures, publications, etc. etc. after that Jan 2003 introduction that quoted 250 hp unless the author didn't bother to check the current material. ALL the pre-orders were for rated 247 hp cars.

Your statement above is completely false, incorrect, WRONG. You are spouting crap again. There is no magic relationship between 250 hp and 238. If anything, a paranoid person would suspect Mazda of having established the actual output at 226 hp, and then back-calculated the 5% variance to get 238 hp to announce as the revised figure - the opposite direction of what you and your fellow conspiracy theory proponents are suggesting.

Sorry, Ike, but I gave you more credit than this. You really are just trolling again and trying to stir up BS, because you've been around long enough to have read through all this the first time around. Either you've got early onset Alzheimers, you're much more stupid than anyone thought, or you're deliberately trolling. You decide - and decide what you're going to do about whichever it is.

Regards,
Gordon

Ike "trolling" and "trying to stir up BS" ???? :rolleyes:

Ike, as I said before, at least you are consistent. Way to go, bro! You're winning friends again! ;)

Did you even read the link I provided Gord, I think I still I have the same brochures somewhere around my house, if I find it would you like me to mail it to you? Something tells me you still won't believe it, gotta love blind faith.

Sorry but you've got things backwards, I provide evidence, you provide nothing but crap.


"ALL of the current RX-8 literature, including the new brochure I just received from the dealer states 250hp for the 6mt and 210hp for the at. I don't think they would have produced all of this if it wasn't correct. Even the Sales employees newsletter, Mazda Fuel for May/June (Vol. 2, Issue 3) says "Buyers have a choice of 250 horsepower...or 210 horsepower..." on page 12. Some of the older pre-production reports had estimated hp data. And none of the current info uses German data either."

"I stopped by the dealership today, and picked up a brochure. In the brochure it says everywhere 250hp, with no disclaimer about it being provisional, unless I just missed it...." (Quote is from after the car was at dealerships even)

"Mazda had said 250 HP for most of the waiting period.

Mazda changed this to 247 HP a few months back, probably after EPA certification.

The magazine ads just say "250 HP" without qualifying what "HP" means.

The big glossy brochure that opens on either side (Part No 9999-92-010R-04) says "Horsepower, SAE NET - 250."

"ALL of the current RX-8 literature, including the new brochure I just received from the dealer states 250hp for the 6mt and 210hp for the at. I don't think they would have produced all of this if it wasn't correct. Even the Sales employees newsletter, Mazda Fuel for May/June (Vol. 2, Issue 3) says "Buyers have a choice of 250 horsepower...or 210 horsepower..." on page 12. Some of the older pre-production reports had estimated hp data. And none of the current info uses German data either."


You're right Gord, when Mazda is sending out newsletters to their sales staff (long after the presale began) telling them that it is available with 250hp I'm sure not a single one of them presold the car as having 250hp :rolleyes: Calling a forum member stupid is very classy when you're a mod, but your people in glass houses remark is so fitting now. Note that all the above quotes were made in June, 6 months after NAIAS, just a month or so before the RX-8 was on dealer lots, and again long after presale began. I guess we're all just stupid and spouting crap, because yet again I have no evidence to back up what I say.

The computer safe modes would be noticed by anyone that knows what they're doing with a dyno, most of the dynos that have been done are accurate. There's nothing excessive about 25% drivetrain losses... if you drive an AWD car.

I agree with you on one thing though Zoom, nothing will ever become of this. There will be no lawsuit and Mazda will just continue to publish whatever number it wants on the RX-8 because they know no one is going to fork over the dough to dispute it.

Prove to me it's BS, or at least show something to refute my claims. Not trolling, just spreading the truth. The RX-8 doesn't make 238hp, for guys who claim to not care about the hp number, or claim the RX-8 isn't about straightline acceleration, blah blah blah. These threads sure to stip up a lot of interest, and certain RX-8 owners sure to get smotional about it.

There are not strong emotions on my end, just a good old debate. It's just too bad so many of you, including a moderator, chose to take pot shots at me.

Ike,

For the most part, all of us here love our 8's very much. Some, more than their own children. Much like when you tell a parent their child is a bad influence, reckless, or just a general brat: 'oh no, not my kid.'

This seemed to have happened here. Did mazda initially misrepresent the HP number as 247 (250). Yes. Does the 8 make 238? I would say fairly close (I guess HP numbers are between 220-225). Is that a little bit off? Yes. But as you know, every company is going to inflate (or deflate) things a little to sell a product.

I assume everyone test drove this car before they bought it? If not, you are a fool. If you did and replied harshly to this thread, you are a fool. If you loved the car for what it is (and was), you are one step ahead of (guessing here) 50% of people in America who HATE THEIR VEHICLE.

Ike, generally, you came in here and called our car a brat. Moms and Dads dont get happy about that. So, instead of having parents fight over something and embarassing the child, let this thread DIE.