I own an Sti, but may move to RX8
04-03-2005, 09:07 PM
#101
Originally Posted by Deslock
Here's my take on it: sports cars used to be very raw with no amenities (and only one seat, originally). As technology improved, sports cars added second seats, climate control, radios, etc. Now we the RX8. It's got 4-doors, 4-seats and a comfortable ride, but is still a sports car because of its driving dynamics. It also still has a "drive-it-like-ya-stole-it" personality, even though it's not as rough or loud as the STI.
04-03-2005, 09:20 PM
#102
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I paid $29k for my STI. $32k for my RX8. Of course my Rx8 was fully loaded with all the goodies and I purchased it well over a year ago ($500 below invoice), but comparably equipped they are very close in price. I'm not talking about the blowout deals on the leftover 04 rx8s either. The limited quantity and high demand will never allow the STI to reach prices that leftover rx8s have reached. Either way, you get what you pay for. The STi is every bit of a bargain as the RX8, but will not seem that way to people who don't want the performance goodies the STI gives you. The difference in MSRP is because the STI pretty much comes with everything performance wise. You can buy a base model RX8 and save tons, but once you start loading it up, the price goes up, and starts hitting STI territory and then some. You really can't compare them price wise.
04-03-2005, 09:32 PM
#103
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Originally Posted by Deslock
It's a lop-sided comparison, price-wise; a brand new '05 6-speed RX8 can be had for $24-25k, about $8k less than the STI (unless the STI is discounted significantly from its MSRP). I have a base 6-speed; it's very well equipped.
Soulless shifters? The S2k, Miata SE 6-speed, and RX8 are some of best shifters I've had the pleasure to use... they have plenty of feel to let you know when you've engaged and their smooth, short action allows quick shifts. There is no advantage to having a notchy, mechanical-feeling shifter in a sports car.
The boxer's weight is low, however, so is the RENESIS'. The RX8 has lower ground clearance and the STI is a significantly taller vehicle with a larger, heavier frame and a lot more glass up high.
The Impreza chassis is OK, but ultimately its an economy platform tweaked for performance as opposed to a pure sports car platform (I touch on the advantages of that below).The STI steering is loose compared to the RX8's (and the EVO's, which is even more responsive than the 8's). Weight distribution doesn't automatically mean better handling, and there are some situations where bias is desirable, but all other attributes being equal, 50/50 distribition will give an all-around handling advantage (in addition to the Miatas and S2k, many of the BMWs I've driven support this). It's true that there are several excellent handling cars with some bias, but most of them that have a bias have a rear-ward one (and their bias isn't a positive contributor to their handling for most situations).
As far as understeer goes, what tires do you have on your WRX? I've driven the WRX with a couple different types, and while the RE92s were horrible and the other tires reduced understeer, it was still substantial. Anyway, as far as the RX8 understeering at autocross, almost every car will do it if pushed hard enough, but there is a huge difference between the WRX, STI and RX8.
I reject your suggestion that the STI's understeer is evened out by the RX8's body roll. Understeer is an important handling attribute; body roll itself is not (but is instead a vehicle attribute that negatively affects handling). In other words, a car handles worse because of body roll, but if you're comparing two cars and the one that has more body roll handles better, the fact that it has more body roll doesn't change it being a better handler. However, if one car understeers more than another, that itself is a handling difference.
In the case of the RX8, it has superb handling and tossability *despite* having a soft ride and some body roll. Additionally, because it gets its handling from it low yaw-moment, balance, chassis, light weight, weight distribution, etc, there is room for improvement via sway bars, suspension upgrades, etc. But a car can only reduce yaw moment and improve weight distribution so much. This illustrates the advantage of using a sports car platform instead of an economy platform. Note that I'm not dismissing the STI as an econobox... I like the STI which, as I posted previously, outperforms the RX8.Subaru's ABS on my WRX was absolutely awful, but with my limited experience with the STI, I can't tell if it inherited the same problems (so I didn't mention it). Perhaps you've driven the STI more than me and can provide more details about that... in any case, my beef was with your claim that the STI's brakes were better than the RX8's.
Here's my take on it: sports cars used to be very raw with no amenities (and only one seat, originally). As technology improved, sports cars added second seats, climate control, radios, etc. Now we the RX8. It's got 4-doors, 4-seats and a comfortable ride, but is still a sports car because of its driving dynamics. It also still has a "drive-it-like-ya-stole-it" personality, even though it's not as rough or loud as the STI.
If you want a purist car with singular purpose, the Elise is obviously a better example than both the RX8 and STI.
LOL... yeah, I imagine a seeing a bunch of RX8, rotary, and scooby fanatics yelling at each other would cause most sensible people to run and never look back :D
Soulless shifters? The S2k, Miata SE 6-speed, and RX8 are some of best shifters I've had the pleasure to use... they have plenty of feel to let you know when you've engaged and their smooth, short action allows quick shifts. There is no advantage to having a notchy, mechanical-feeling shifter in a sports car.
The boxer's weight is low, however, so is the RENESIS'. The RX8 has lower ground clearance and the STI is a significantly taller vehicle with a larger, heavier frame and a lot more glass up high.
The Impreza chassis is OK, but ultimately its an economy platform tweaked for performance as opposed to a pure sports car platform (I touch on the advantages of that below).The STI steering is loose compared to the RX8's (and the EVO's, which is even more responsive than the 8's). Weight distribution doesn't automatically mean better handling, and there are some situations where bias is desirable, but all other attributes being equal, 50/50 distribition will give an all-around handling advantage (in addition to the Miatas and S2k, many of the BMWs I've driven support this). It's true that there are several excellent handling cars with some bias, but most of them that have a bias have a rear-ward one (and their bias isn't a positive contributor to their handling for most situations).
As far as understeer goes, what tires do you have on your WRX? I've driven the WRX with a couple different types, and while the RE92s were horrible and the other tires reduced understeer, it was still substantial. Anyway, as far as the RX8 understeering at autocross, almost every car will do it if pushed hard enough, but there is a huge difference between the WRX, STI and RX8.
I reject your suggestion that the STI's understeer is evened out by the RX8's body roll. Understeer is an important handling attribute; body roll itself is not (but is instead a vehicle attribute that negatively affects handling). In other words, a car handles worse because of body roll, but if you're comparing two cars and the one that has more body roll handles better, the fact that it has more body roll doesn't change it being a better handler. However, if one car understeers more than another, that itself is a handling difference.
In the case of the RX8, it has superb handling and tossability *despite* having a soft ride and some body roll. Additionally, because it gets its handling from it low yaw-moment, balance, chassis, light weight, weight distribution, etc, there is room for improvement via sway bars, suspension upgrades, etc. But a car can only reduce yaw moment and improve weight distribution so much. This illustrates the advantage of using a sports car platform instead of an economy platform. Note that I'm not dismissing the STI as an econobox... I like the STI which, as I posted previously, outperforms the RX8.Subaru's ABS on my WRX was absolutely awful, but with my limited experience with the STI, I can't tell if it inherited the same problems (so I didn't mention it). Perhaps you've driven the STI more than me and can provide more details about that... in any case, my beef was with your claim that the STI's brakes were better than the RX8's.
Here's my take on it: sports cars used to be very raw with no amenities (and only one seat, originally). As technology improved, sports cars added second seats, climate control, radios, etc. Now we the RX8. It's got 4-doors, 4-seats and a comfortable ride, but is still a sports car because of its driving dynamics. It also still has a "drive-it-like-ya-stole-it" personality, even though it's not as rough or loud as the STI.
If you want a purist car with singular purpose, the Elise is obviously a better example than both the RX8 and STI.
LOL... yeah, I imagine a seeing a bunch of RX8, rotary, and scooby fanatics yelling at each other would cause most sensible people to run and never look back :D
2.) I think my statement came across the wrong way about shifters. I wasn't calling the RX-8 shifter soulless, just refering to cars in general. I rather like the S2K and RX-8 shifters. However just because the Impreza shifters feel more mechanical in my eyes doesn't make them worse or better, just different. Some people will like their feel, others won't and it comes down to preference. It's kind of like the smoothness of a Renesis vs. the rumble of the boxer, both good in their own way, some will like them some won't.
3.) So if a car understeers yet handles better what does that mean then? Because I feel the understeering STi is a better handler than the bodyrolling RX-8. It's the case with both cars that those things can be tuned out or made better with the addition with aftermarket parts. Also I wouldn't go as far to say the Rx-8 is a soft ride, it has its harsh moments as well. Tossable, that goes to the STi, fling it around all you want and it just asks for me. Nimble, I'll give that to the RX-8.
4.) Your sportscar platform is flawed considering the platform for all Imprezas was developed with the WRC in mind. Cars like the Impreza RS were born out of the STi and WRX, not the other way around. It's not nor has it ever been a modified econo car chassis.
5.) I've driven the STi a fair amount, but have never noticed the ABS, I'm just assuming it's the same since it's the same system just with different hardware hooked up to it.
6.) I've tried the "drive it like you stole it" approach with the RX-8, and quite frankly I was left wanting. That driving attitude transfers very nicely to the STi on all surfaces however
7.) I agree with you about the Elise, however we're talking about a car that neither of us could even get at this moment for anything short of several thousand dollars over MSRP. Which leaves me believeing that if you have a budget of around 30k and want a purists car the STi and Evo are the best choices, not the one that you consider to be the sportscar.
04-03-2005, 10:48 PM
#105
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
I paid $29k for my STI. $32k for my RX8. Of course my Rx8 was fully loaded with all the goodies and I purchased it well over a year ago ($500 below invoice), but comparably equipped they are very close in price. I'm not talking about the blowout deals on the leftover 04 rx8s either. The limited quantity and high demand will never allow the STI to reach prices that leftover rx8s have reached. Either way, you get what you pay for. The STi is every bit of a bargain as the RX8, but will not seem that way to people who don't want the performance goodies the STI gives you. The difference in MSRP is because the STI pretty much comes with everything performance wise. You can buy a base model RX8 and save tons, but once you start loading it up, the price goes up, and starts hitting STI territory and then some. You really can't compare them price wise.
04-03-2005, 10:56 PM
#106
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
1.) The STi is being sold around $500 over Invoice from what I can tell, not RX-8 discounts but people aren't beinf forced to pay MSRP anymore. Therefore I still say an RX-8 with packages that fall in at 32-33k is a fair comparison.
3.) So if a car understeers yet handles better what does that mean then? Because I feel the understeering STi is a better handler than the bodyrolling RX-8. It's the case with both cars that those things can be tuned out or made better with the addition with aftermarket parts. Also I wouldn't go as far to say the Rx-8 is a soft ride, it has its harsh moments as well. Tossable, that goes to the STi, fling it around all you want and it just asks for me. Nimble, I'll give that to the RX-8.
4.) Your sportscar platform is flawed considering the platform for all Imprezas was developed with the WRC in mind. Cars like the Impreza RS were born out of the STi and WRX, not the other way around. It's not nor has it ever been a modified econo car chassis.
7.) I agree with you about the Elise, however we're talking about a car that neither of us could even get at this moment for anything short of several thousand dollars over MSRP. Which leaves me believeing that if you have a budget of around 30k and want a purists car the STi and Evo are the best choices, not the one that you consider to be the sportscar.
3.) So if a car understeers yet handles better what does that mean then? Because I feel the understeering STi is a better handler than the bodyrolling RX-8. It's the case with both cars that those things can be tuned out or made better with the addition with aftermarket parts. Also I wouldn't go as far to say the Rx-8 is a soft ride, it has its harsh moments as well. Tossable, that goes to the STi, fling it around all you want and it just asks for me. Nimble, I'll give that to the RX-8.
4.) Your sportscar platform is flawed considering the platform for all Imprezas was developed with the WRC in mind. Cars like the Impreza RS were born out of the STi and WRX, not the other way around. It's not nor has it ever been a modified econo car chassis.
7.) I agree with you about the Elise, however we're talking about a car that neither of us could even get at this moment for anything short of several thousand dollars over MSRP. Which leaves me believeing that if you have a budget of around 30k and want a purists car the STi and Evo are the best choices, not the one that you consider to be the sportscar.
3. If a car understeers, then it does worse in situations in which understeer sends it into the cone/wall/tree/ditch/whatever (it might have better handling in other situations). If carA has more body roll and can still switch directions faster than carB with less body roll, then why does it matter that carA has more body roll? That just means if you get rid of the roll, carA will do even better.
4. LOL, and you accused us of paying too much attention to marketing gimmicks. The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide). Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs.
7. Depends on what you mean by a purist. Some purists wouldn't touch the EVO and STI since they have AWD or because they are somewhat heavy. Others might dismiss the RX8 along with the EVO and STI because they all have 4 doors. Or they might be all dismissed just because they have 4 seats. Or, as you point out, some might dislike the RX8 because it's more refined. IMHO, at ~$30k, the most traditional sports cars are probably the S2k (despite its LCD tach) and the Miata.
04-03-2005, 11:11 PM
#107
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Ahh only just saw this. I sold my 04 STi and bought an 04 RX8 and have not looked back. I took a 7k loss on the STi (sold privately) in that I bought the first one the dealer received, and proceded to spend 5k on aftermarket crap... only then did I realize that the car was not the right fit for me... I previously drove a 99 M3 and was looking for a similar feel... expensive learning curve on my part, but I was chasing power.
The only joy the STi gave me was a track day with the BMWCCA... I outpaced three 02 M3's driven at a fairly competent level.... the rest of the time the car felt like a bucket of bolts...
S
The only joy the STi gave me was a track day with the BMWCCA... I outpaced three 02 M3's driven at a fairly competent level.... the rest of the time the car felt like a bucket of bolts...
S
04-03-2005, 11:20 PM
#108
Originally Posted by Deslock
IMHO, at ~$30k, the most traditional sports cars are probably the S2k (despite its LCD tach) and the Miata.
Yes, yes I have a problem.
:p
Last edited by BlueEyes; 04-03-2005 at 11:36 PM.
04-04-2005, 12:20 AM
#110
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Originally Posted by Deslock
1. So that would make the STI ~$6k more than the base RX8 6-speed. I have the same question for you as what I asked VikingDJ: What packages does the RX8 need to make it comparable to the STI? (as much as they can be since they're such different animals)
3. If a car understeers, then it does worse in situations in which understeer sends it into the cone/wall/tree/ditch/whatever (it might have better handling in other situations). If carA has more body roll and can still switch directions faster than carB with less body roll, then why does it matter that carA has more body roll? That just means if you get rid of the roll, carA will do even better.
4. LOL, and you accused us of paying too much attention to marketing gimmicks. The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide). Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs.
7. Depends on what you mean by a purist. Some purists wouldn't touch the EVO and STI since they have AWD or because they are somewhat heavy. Others might dismiss the RX8 along with the EVO and STI because they all have 4 doors. Or they might be all dismissed just because they have 4 seats. Or, as you point out, some might dislike the RX8 because it's more refined. IMHO, at ~$30k, the most traditional sports cars are probably the S2k (despite its LCD tach) and the Miata.
3. If a car understeers, then it does worse in situations in which understeer sends it into the cone/wall/tree/ditch/whatever (it might have better handling in other situations). If carA has more body roll and can still switch directions faster than carB with less body roll, then why does it matter that carA has more body roll? That just means if you get rid of the roll, carA will do even better.
4. LOL, and you accused us of paying too much attention to marketing gimmicks. The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide). Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs.
7. Depends on what you mean by a purist. Some purists wouldn't touch the EVO and STI since they have AWD or because they are somewhat heavy. Others might dismiss the RX8 along with the EVO and STI because they all have 4 doors. Or they might be all dismissed just because they have 4 seats. Or, as you point out, some might dislike the RX8 because it's more refined. IMHO, at ~$30k, the most traditional sports cars are probably the S2k (despite its LCD tach) and the Miata.
4.) It's not a marketing gimmick, this chasis was designed as a replacement for the Legacy in the WRC. I've never heard Subaru mention it let alone market it based on that. If it's a good platform why wouldn't they use it on other vehicles, using an existing platform even if it's a little more expensive or rom a sporty car is still most cost effective than designing a new one.
04-04-2005, 12:22 AM
#111
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Originally Posted by Deslock
^ I'm assuming IkeWRX's $30k applied to new cars. Talking about used cars for $30k will add another 10 pages to this thread :D
04-04-2005, 12:25 AM
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Originally Posted by BlueEyes
$15K
Yes, yes I have a problem.
:p
Yes, yes I have a problem.
:p
04-04-2005, 01:01 AM
#113
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RX-8 = Heated Seats
STi = Intercooler sprayer
RX-8 = TCS
STi = DCCD
Four features, the STi's are designed to make you go faster, the RX-8's will keep your butt on the road and warm at the same time.
STi = Intercooler sprayer
RX-8 = TCS
STi = DCCD
Four features, the STi's are designed to make you go faster, the RX-8's will keep your butt on the road and warm at the same time.
04-04-2005, 01:05 AM
#114
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Originally Posted by Deslock
1. So that would make the STI ~$6k more than the base RX8 6-speed. I have the same question for you as what I asked VikingDJ: What packages does the RX8 need to make it comparable to the STI? (as much as they can be since they're such different animals)
OK I'll try to answer that one directly. For 6k more, you get, well, 300hp and 300 torque, AWD, fully controllable automatic and manually adjustable differential which lets you control power to front or rear wheels, IC water sprayer, adjustable HID lights, front and rear limited slip differentials, automatic climate control, ground effects, other high perfoance tuning parts for easy modding, ect ect ect. It's basically a compromise. One car gives you what the other lacks. The mechanics of this car simply raise the price of it. If you don't care or want any of that, then there's no point to even buying one. Basically the packages you can add to RX8 make it just as nice of a refined luxury performance coupe as the STi does a RAW ***** out high performance sedan. My comparison to these cars comparabbly equipped was purely based on price, because you are talking two different breeds for two different purposes. The fact is that you can build a top of line RX8 to cost more then a top of line STI, because the STI has virtually all standard features, whereas the RX8 starts out small, and you can add goodies and refinements to make it a better car. I'd say why not make life easier and build a 300hp RX8 with all the goodies each car has.
Last edited by VikingDJ; 04-04-2005 at 01:11 AM.
04-04-2005, 01:21 AM
#115
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I am not even going to finish reading this thread. People:
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
04-04-2005, 06:54 AM
#116
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Originally Posted by RX8-TX
I am not even going to finish reading this thread. People:
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
LOL
04-04-2005, 08:41 AM
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Originally Posted by IkeWRX
3.) If we're talking instances of hitting something I can guarantee you that oversteer causes people to hit things far more often when pushing a car to it's limits, not understeer. I've raced on tracks for countless hours and I can't recall going off a track as a result of understeer. Autocross and going a little wide, sure I've clipped a cone, but almost every cone I've ever hit was an inside cone or a result of a spin caused by snap oversteer.
4.) It's not a marketing gimmick, this chasis was designed as a replacement for the Legacy in the WRC. I've never heard Subaru mention it let alone market it based on that. If it's a good platform why wouldn't they use it on other vehicles, using an existing platform even if it's a little more expensive or rom a sporty car is still most cost effective than designing a new one.
4.) It's not a marketing gimmick, this chasis was designed as a replacement for the Legacy in the WRC. I've never heard Subaru mention it let alone market it based on that. If it's a good platform why wouldn't they use it on other vehicles, using an existing platform even if it's a little more expensive or rom a sporty car is still most cost effective than designing a new one.
4. Today's Impreza is a lot heavier than the '93 (when the Impreza replaced the Legacy in the WRC, if I remember correctly) and, as I mentioned, is now a shared platform with a pseudo-SUV. When I got my '02 WRX, there was all sorts of marketing stuff talking about the WRC STI. There's nothing wrong with that; the Impreza's impressive WRC heritage deserves respect and I'm not saying it's a bad platform. But despite the following ""The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide).", you still disagree with "Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs."? My point was simply that a pure sports car platform has some inherent advantages.
04-04-2005, 08:42 AM
#118
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Originally Posted by RX8-TX
I am not even going to finish reading this thread. People:
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
1. The STi is much more of a sports car than the RX8 will ever be -out of a dealer. In fact, the STi is much more of a sports car than most "sports cars" currently out there. So STOP THE BULL$h|7.
2. The STi is quirky, the EVO is quirky, the RX8 is quirky. I hope I don't hear a single more God darn comment about it from now on.
Let me just list a few things to refresh your memory, and if anyone has any questions, go read the friggin' Satisfaction Survey thread:
a. Flodding.
b. Oil Consumption.
c. Gas mileage.
d. Rattles (YES! Freaking rattles on the 8)
e. Interior trim breaking (before you even think about it: center console!)
Should I really go on? Exhaust soot, runs PIG rich, pings and dings with 87 gas, clutch & tranmission are very very uneven in quality from car to car, sqeaky brakes, brake dust, rain, dust and bugs. Is that a broad enough list of things that happen to our RX8?
Well.....now, stop the $h|7 about the STi's of the world.....they are a much MORE performance oriented car than ours. BIG FRIGGIN' DEAL. Live with it...stop busting Ike's nutts and smoke a cigarrette to relax.
04-04-2005, 08:49 AM
#119
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Originally Posted by VikingDJ
OK I'll try to answer that one directly. For 6k more, you get, well, 300hp and 300 torque, AWD, fully controllable automatic and manually adjustable differential which lets you control power to front or rear wheels, IC water sprayer, adjustable HID lights, front and rear limited slip differentials, automatic climate control, ground effects, other high perfoance tuning parts for easy modding, ect ect ect. It's basically a compromise. One car gives you what the other lacks. The mechanics of this car simply raise the price of it. If you don't care or want any of that, then there's no point to even buying one. Basically the packages you can add to RX8 make it just as nice of a refined luxury performance coupe as the STi does a RAW ***** out high performance sedan. My comparison to these cars comparabbly equipped was purely based on price, because you are talking two different breeds for two different purposes. The fact is that you can build a top of line RX8 to cost more then a top of line STI, because the STI has virtually all standard features, whereas the RX8 starts out small, and you can add goodies and refinements to make it a better car. I'd say why not make life easier and build a 300hp RX8 with all the goodies each car has.
So ultimately, the RX8 is $6k cheaper unless you want to add HID, foglights, and TSC/DSC (then it's $5k cheaper) or various luxury items (and then it can be priced near or above the STI).
04-04-2005, 09:22 AM
#120
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Originally Posted by Deslock
3. That's nice, but oversteer vs understeer isn't the issue here and completely misses the point: understeer is itself a handling attribute while body roll is something that causes negative handling attributes. Again, "if carA has more body roll and can still switch directions faster than carB with less body roll, then why does it matter that carA has more body roll?"
4. Today's Impreza is a lot heavier than the '93 (when the Impreza replaced the Legacy in the WRC, if I remember correctly) and, as I mentioned, is now a shared platform with a pseudo-SUV. When I got my '02 WRX, there was all sorts of marketing stuff talking about the WRC STI. There's nothing wrong with that; the Impreza's impressive WRC heritage deserves respect and I'm not saying it's a bad platform. But despite the following ""The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide).", you still disagree with "Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs."? My point was simply that a pure sports car platform has some inherent advantages.
4. Today's Impreza is a lot heavier than the '93 (when the Impreza replaced the Legacy in the WRC, if I remember correctly) and, as I mentioned, is now a shared platform with a pseudo-SUV. When I got my '02 WRX, there was all sorts of marketing stuff talking about the WRC STI. There's nothing wrong with that; the Impreza's impressive WRC heritage deserves respect and I'm not saying it's a bad platform. But despite the following ""The STI package derives much from the WRC cars, but the platform it's based on was used in almost 100,000 Imprezas and Foresters in the USA in 2004 (I dunno how many more are sold world-wide).", you still disagree with "Sure a few design decisions could've been made with the WRC in mind, but obviously the current Impreza/Forester platform was primarily developed for building inexpensive and mass-produced AWD sedans, wagons, and pseudo-SUVs."? My point was simply that a pure sports car platform has some inherent advantages.
Hey I am not trying to deny that the STi has understeer, the steering on the Evo vs. the steering on the STi is one of few reasons I've considered buying an Evo over an STi. I still contend that the STi feels every bit the sportscar despite this and the only time the understeer would be noticed is in certain turns out on the track. Compared to the Evo MR this understeer that some people make sound so debilitating added up to a whopping .3 seconds around the gingerman track. The Evo MR has some pretty serious suspension upgrades over the regular Evo so I'd say that's pretty damn good. Throw a stiffer rear sway and or adjust the tire pressure on the STi and does it make that .3 seconds? I think so but we'll never know for sure. Does the RX-8 keep up with either of them around the same track? Not a snowballs chance in hell.4.) So if next year the RX-8 platform is used on another non sportscar Mazda does that make it any less of a sportscar platform when it's used on an RX-8? I think not! Lastly I think we both know know the main reason the new Impreza is heavier is a result of things other than the chassis.
04-04-2005, 09:24 AM
#121
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Originally Posted by Deslock
However, a sports car is only one of many types of performance vehicles and the 8's dynamics are more like a sports cars than the STI's.
Almost none of what you wrote has anything to do with what a sports car is and your post illustrates why people should read threads before contributing to them.
Besides....in my book, this one is a SPORTS CAR, with sports car DYNAMICS:
04-04-2005, 09:31 AM
#122
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Originally Posted by Deslock
No one is questioning what the extra $6k for the STI gets you. You previously wrote that "you can't compare them price wise", but you also wrote "comparably equipped they are very close in price", which is a bit confusing. A $30k Rx8 doesn't have better driving dynamics than a $24k one (unless you're adding a lighter flywheel, suspension upgrade, etc but those types of things are not included with the packages) and there's no reason to assume $6k of luxury items need to be added to the RX8 before it should be compared to the STI. The STI will still be rawer and more powerful and the RX8 lighter and more balanced. The only regular package I could see an argument for is the Sports Package (HID, foglights, TCS/DSC), but that raises the price of the RX8 only $1k.
So ultimately, the RX8 is $6k cheaper unless you want to add HID, foglights, and TSC/DSC (then it's $5k cheaper) or various luxury items (and then it can be priced near or above the STI).
So ultimately, the RX8 is $6k cheaper unless you want to add HID, foglights, and TSC/DSC (then it's $5k cheaper) or various luxury items (and then it can be priced near or above the STI).
I'm going to call you on saying it's a 400 lb. difference between the RX-8 and the STi. The RX-8 with that extra body molding has a curb weight of over 3000lbs.(at least that's my recolection), I don't know what new match you're using but it just doesn't add up considering that.
Just out of curiosity, did you ever do any mods to your WRX?
04-04-2005, 09:39 AM
#123
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Here's a magazine article to keep you occupied til I get back later and respond. It's a good indication of what can happen to an STi once you give it a few tweaks. You Miata fans will like the article as well :D
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...&highlight=evo
http://www.elisetalk.com/forums/show...&highlight=evo
04-04-2005, 09:57 AM
#125
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Originally Posted by DARKMAZ8
Subaru should have stuck with the original style imo.....It's the only one I can look at..... :D