robrecht

There's lots of potential energy that is not being effectively developed, but it's not only because of your enemies of self-autonomy. I think there's a little corporate greed to blame for that as well. No simple solution that only blames the other party as far as I'm concerned. Leadership needs to mobilize competing parties to succeed for a larger goal. I'm not talking about entitlements but rather a much larger common good that allows for a larger number of individuals to realize their full potential. Company towns certainly did serve the rights of the individual, just not enough individuals.

SLWASFK

The rotary has survived the emissions laws of 76 and 95, and the gas crisis' of 73, 79 and 08. I expect Mazda will step up like thye always do. They may be one of the smaller Japanese manufacturers, but they have Fords backing, and they have a way of pulling through bad situations.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Ah, the vagueness and platitudes of the Statist/Socialist.
Nobody is talking party politics here. We are talking about political philosophies, Rob. Are you in favor of Statism, Freedom, or some "gray area" version in between? When it comes to rights, gray areas only exist for the intellectually/philosophically lazy.
Another proponent of central-planning. Ho hum and history is loaded with failures of same. Why are individual freedoms so threatening to people?
When the cost of your propositions are not borne by the individual receiving them they are entitlements and they must be justified. Just because somebody makes more money than you doesn't give you the right to send them the bill for that which makes you feel better about being an American.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

I left Ford 2 yeras ago because I was disappointed with Bill Ford and the rest of their corporate management. Ironically, I am now proud of Ford for having rejected Obama's attempt at a stealthy takeover by rejecting the "bailout" money. Ford may turn out to be the last true American auto company we see.

SLWASFK

Yeah, Ford has definitely been in trouble due to poor management, but no worse than GM or Chrysler. and Amen to them not accepting the government bailout. I've always been a Ford guy, but I never imagined they would actually risk the company by rejecting the government money. Good for them. When I pay off the 8, I'll definitely buy a new Ford (probably F150) if they are still around.

robrecht

Talking about Statism/Socialism vs Freedom sounds like vague platitudes to me. I was only referring to things that I've seen actually work in the real world. Is your network of small businesses going to succeed in building a modern grid that can distribute nuclear power? Don't think so. Gray is not for the lazy, but it suits those who aren't satisfied with simplistic rhetoric. It's the simplistic black/white 'thinkers' that I think are rather lazy in grasping at simplistic explanations. What makes you think I'm threatened by individual freedom? What nonsense. Nobody pays my bills. But I see a common good, common good, in providing for the welfare of innocent, helpless children, for example. I think our society is better, better for all of us, when we have a low infant mortality rate, when we have a decent educational system, when we have child labor laws, when we limit the number of people that are bought and sold as slaves, for example.

Flashwing

I might be getting off the beaten path here, but there's a lot to be said about personal responsibility and that's where providing for the "common good" and simply taking advantage of people meet. What we see now are entitlements which are sold under the banner of providing for the common good when in fact it's a system designed to provide for one group of people at the expense of another.

I use a great analogy. Would anyone here, when out to dinner at a resturant, go to the next table over and pay for their meal? How many of you would pay for the meal of a table when they give YOU the check? I'm willing to bet none of you.

If you pay your own bills and support yourself then I doubt you're willing to hand over that hard earned cash to the government so they can disperse it how they please.

It's a case of getting back to personal responsibility. For better or worse, we are ALL a product of our decisions. Whether your poor, rich, happy or sad you made a choice which put you into the position you're in. The great thing about America is no matter what happens to you in life you have the same opportunities as everyone else.

Instead what are we doing? We're paying for homes that people should never have bought in the first place, we're funding private companies that made bad business decisions and forced lending companies to give loans to risky customers. By forcing the "common good" on the people you're simply forcing the producers to support non-producers.

I want to help my fellow man out as much as I can. The United States is the most charitable country in the world by a HUGE margin. Second place is a distant second. There are tons of non-profit organizations which provide for the poor, sick and misfortunate.

Imagine if everyone woke up tomorrow and took responsibility for their own situation instead of blaming "the man". Wow, what a world we would live in.

robrecht

Yes, various forms of personalist or humanist philosophy profess that there is no person apart from the community. This is a higher level of discourse than merely speaking of an individual and a group. Personal rights and responsibilities are not merely individual. They are learned from the community and we are indebted to the community for our own personal existence. Everyone has a mother and a father. Most have brothers and sisters. Most have children. True persons are interpersonal, not merely individuals.
If you want to make the analogy work, ask yourself if you would ignore a starving child?
But in theory we have representative government. Take part in the government rather than just sit back and criticize. I live in a small enough town where that's not so difficult to imagine. I was approached to run for local office. They assumed I was a Republican--that was a bit funny--but when the mayor stopped by and asked us to join a couple of local committees I chose to get involved, try to make a difference. The more people that are involved in their government, the easier it is to keep it honest and to speak out for the priorities you want addressed.
Exactly. And part of our own individual situation is the community in which we live. We cannot truly take care of our own situation without being responsible to others.

Flashwing

I guess we simply disagree on this issue. The "community" didn't do anything to help me or my family when I was younger, nor did the community get me a job or send me to college or do any of the hard work I've done to get where I am today. I got here through my own ambition and the support of my family. When I've lost jobs the community didn't feed me, put gas in my car or job hunt. I did those things.

Of course I understand the basics that in order for people to survive they must work together. The primary problem is not everyone is pulling their weight and the burden is being further shifted to those who do. What's the incentive to provide for yourself when others do it for you? My whole generation is littered with 20somthings who live at home til they are almost 30 and get married cause they are too lazy to strike out on their own.

If the community as a whole all worked to produce, then your stance would be correct. The problem is too many are sitting back and enjoying the labor of others.

Ohhhh tugging at the heart strings huh? So the assumption is I should give all that I have to feed all the starving children of the world? What about my kids? What about me? If I want to feed the staving children of the world it should be my charitable choice, not forced upon me by the government. We already have hundreds if not thousands of organizations that support the poor and hungry through donations.

Should we all give our money to not only feed these children but pay for their college education and buy them a house and a car and health care? Where does it stop when it comes to forcing people to support others? People should be given the choice, not have the choice made for them.

I do take part. I vote, communicate with local and national representatives and stay informed. That's about 90% more than the majority of people in this country. Only a fraction actually stay informed on a daily basis with issues. Those that at least vote show up once every 4 years and cast a ballot for whomever makes them "feel" good.

I'm sure my methods sound harsh and cold but my political and life principles are guided by reason and not by emotion. I've been in plenty of very tough situations in my life and nobody came to rescue me. It was only by my own will and determination that got me through those tough times. I have my own divine beliefs and believe that I've had help along the way, but nobody swooped in to give me anything.

Thus, I've gained a unique and rare maturity for my ripe age of 26. I've demonstrated more real world thinking and maturity than people twice my age and it's because I've had to be responsible for myself, my actions and my situation.

I'm just asking others to do the same.

robrecht

Did you go to public schools? If so, your parents taxes alone did not pay for your education? Not even close. Did you go to a state university? By the way, when I said community above, I was including your parents, brothers, sisters, etc, not excluding them.

It may be the case that the loafers of your generation that you mention are a prime example of an overly individualist philosophy that does not recognize one's responsibility to others. When (if) you ever have kids what I'm saying may make more sense to you.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

You're right, but how much would the standard of living of that one group improve if they could keep that extra cash when compared to the standard of living the the second group? We've been doing the entitlement thing for about three quarters of a century now (ironically probably the most prosperous and productive years in our history), and it will never go away. Everyone seems to complain about it until they hit retirement age, or a !@#$ing disaster happens. When people know they don't have to save for a rainy day, or as much for their retirement, perhaps it frees those people to take greater risks than they would have otherwise, and as a result, it breeds innovation.

On a funnier side note, I had a coworker of mine argue with me "against the necessities of government bureaucracies like FEMA" not even two weeks before he gladly accepted a check from them after tropical storm Faye flooded his house.

I would totally pay for someone else's meal if I had the means and they were hungry and did not have the means to pay for it themselves. Nothing wrong with that. Here's a funnier analogy.

What if I don't have a car? I don't want to pay for your !@#ing roads! We also pay taxes to support Fire Departments. Well screw that, if he sets his house on fire, that's his !@#$ing problem, not mine.

There are certain things that a society needs in order to prosper/progress. A smart energy policy is one of them. We can't depend on fossil fuels forever, and mandating higher fuel efficiency standards is a step in the right direction.

Not true. Many people have much greater advantages/opportunities than others. Some people are born into their positions, be they good or bad. For instance, if Obama had been a "C" student, he would not have been elected President of the United States. We've had "C" students be elected President, but they were usually born into great advantage:
http://www.depresident.com/george-c-...bush-video.asp

Yeah, a lot of people should not have bought homes, and banks shouldn't have gotten so lend-happy (but this is all free-market capitalism, at it's best ).

Extremely true:


Yeah, it's really easy to say that though when you're living the good life. When you're born into a family where a parent puts out cigarettes on your skin for sport, or molests you and your sister, or abuses drugs, or ... you get the picture, it's a little different.

Fortunately none of that happened to me, and I was able to concentrate on my schooling, marry an intelligent and beautiful woman, buy an RX-8, buy a Pettit Supercharger for it, and have the opportunity/privilege to provide the same opportunities to my children that my immigrant parents provided to me. If I as a privileged one can help give some of those same opportunities to someone less fortunate than I, then it makes me a better American, no, a better human being.

But who cares!? We're all going to die of swine flu anyway!

Edit:

Oh, and to put things in perspective, this chart shows how much more oil the oil companies will add to the supply by drilling offshore:



Barely enough to make a dent (and that dent won't even be apparent for many years), but that dent equates to billions of dollars which is why the ignorant "drill, baby drill" chant was conceived. We need our government to create an energy policy that works.

robrecht

Cute kids! They're lucky to have a Dad with a supercharged RX-8!

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

HAHA thanks. My kids love my car. My wife, not so much:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lQzBlcyUlvU

Flashwing

See, here we go with the excuses. You honestly think I or anyone for that matter grow up in a "normal" family without it's problems?

I don't tell the stories of my youth because I've never let them hold me back. Needless to say I understood what sickness, suffering and death were at an age when kids were still playing with their toys. I had to learn how to forget family disasters and go to school with a smile on my face like everything was ok.

I never had a childhood, I never got to play with other kids and do all the fun stuff kids do. Probably why I'm still single and not interested in doing anything but what I want to do right now. This is me making up for 14 years of hell.

Still, I managed to do great things for myself. Why is it wrong to expect the same out of other people?

The movement is to take responsibility out of the hands of people and move it onto other things. Why do you think there are so many conditions and such now? People need ways to deflect blame instead of accepting responsibility.

But would you sacrifice the lifestyle you and your family enjoy so someone else can sit around and do nothing to improve their own quality of life? That's what is going to happen when we hear about "sacrifice" these days. You should feel guilty for having a nice car and a great family cause there are all kinds of people out there who don't have those things. Shame on you!

I have no problem with helping people who help themselves.

I know that when/if I make the decision to have kids I'll do everything in my power to give them the life and experiences which will help them grow into independant and self sustaining people who think for themselves. My kids will understand if you want something you go out and get it.

Perhaps my perception is narrow and I don't take other people into consideration. I am not totally against working as a community to achieve a common goal or good. I simply ask that everyone pull their weight.

turbovtec

iTrader: (1)

I wonder how bad I'm messing up the air by having a straight pipe and no catalytic converter =] lol

robrecht

No, I was just trying to make your analogy a little more pertinent.
Uh, no one said that was wrong. Who exactly are you arguing against?
Do you honestly believe anyone here has argued for this? Flashwing, if you're such a rare and uniquely mature person, as you claim, maybe you could try not to twist and distort what others are saying. Also, why not answer the questions I put to you--did go to public schools? LOL, did you also delete your coil dyno thread? That's the way a normal discussion works. Otherwise, these discussion usually devolve into a bunch of Internet rants.

robrecht

LOL, just yesterday, I was driving behind an Evo guy who was trying to get me to race him. He obviously had no cat and his car smelled like crap. Gave me a headache to have all his exhaust coming in my car. As long as he was enjoying himself, who cares about anyone else.

Flashwing

Yes the coil dyno thread was removed. I posted it simply to show results I obtained via two different dynos using two different setups. People have been trying to read too deeply into it when I was simply posting information on what happened. The interesting part was other vendors got more mileage out of it than I did.

I apologize if you felt I was twisting your words around. Perhaps it comes down to having different world views generated from different experiences.

Hidef1080

I think the overall idea/question here is should the government mandate higher fuel mileage or should we leave it up to the free market to address this issue, if it is in fact an issue which I think it is.


The more I think about it when the price of gas hit 3.50 to 4 dollars a gallon, SUV and truck sells fell because people were looking for smaller, lighter more fuel efficient cars, thus the Smart Car came to the US. In this example the free market was working and rather quickly too.
The people wanted and asked for better cars and Smart USA stepped up to the plate and a number of Japaneses car makers were already in a slightly better position with more fuel efficient cars than the Big 3.


However, California tried to raise their standards years ago but the government along with some auto makers and lobbyist fought it in favor of the current standard.
The current standard that helped to place us in the position we find ourselves in now.


So we had a government along with the auto industry fighting against change but when the cost of gas was high enough that people stopped driving or sold their SUV's or looked for and bought smaller cars...
The change started.
It started with the people.


I know this is leaving out many other factors like OPEC, the hurricanes that shutdown some of our refineries, the housing market meltdown and AIG.


But again I say when people are in enough pain or when people feel the need for change for whatever reason change will come.


And please don't think the word “change” is in anyway a shout-out to Obama but I'm not anti-Obama either.


We do need better cars and we do need to find better fuel supplies.


My 2 cents.

Flashwing

The free market is going to make the decision anyway. When the automakers make a bunch of cars nobody wants to buy they will go somewhere else. That, or used cars will end up being in demand.

robrecht

No apology necessary, I wasn't personally offended, just trying to keep the discussion from devolving into typical Internet rants aimed at no one in particular and everyone in general.

If you guys keep deleting threads when you feel misunderstood, or taken advantage of, or unfairly treated by the moderators, you run the risk of losing credibility or alienating people or just discouraging as thoughtful input by others. It's frustrating when a group of people have an honest discussion, learn from each other, spark new areas of awareness, only to have that discussion deleted by one person who no longer liked where others in the group were going. Just a thought.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

I asked Flashwing to delete it because dyno sheet threads devolve into exactly what you are trying to prevent from happening in this thread. There is plenty of information that can be gleaned from dyno sheets but most people are not educated in how to interpret them. The sad part is the ignorant are usually the ones who have the most to say about what they THINK they see. The other reasons we were deleting threads is because Atlas Shrugged and much of that info was becoming irrelevant, anyway.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

That's great. I'm glad things turned out well for you, and it's totally ok for you to expect the same out of other people as long as they have the same situation as you.

And what are we sacrificing exactly? Can you quantify it? How much of your paycheck are you losing?

Yeah, I disagree here. I don't feel what we pay in taxes is much of a sacrifice considering the standard of living we enjoy. The more money you make, the more taxes you pay, and that amount is really not that high relatively speaking. More of the money we pay in taxes goes towards military spending than other social programs (yes, we have a socialized military! OoOoOOoH!!! ). Not that I'm complaining, but it helps to put things in perspective.

The standard of living that the average person enjoys in this country is INCREDIBLE when compared to most of the rest of the world's people. Also, the gap between rich and poor is growing steadily, so I don't see how anyone's sacrificing their standard of living.

I've been married for 10 years now, and have seen a lot of !@#$ed up stuff (so I know I have it good). Your situation will make your kids more fortunate than most in that they have someone to teach them the right from wrong, amongst other things.

Charles R. Hill

iTrader: (7)

Imagine how prosperous we would be if the government were to get out of the way and let us flourish. Then, we could solve social problems via charity rather than taxation, beauracracy, and redundant government programs.

Bastage

iTrader: (1)

Both situations have been realized. American automakers are already making a bunch of cars nobody wants to buy (that's the problem), and used cars are already in higher demand. The used car business is doing WAY better than the new car business.

I'm surprised this thread hasn't been shut down yet. I thought just using a word like "socialism" in a thread would be enough to kill it. Glad I was wrong.

It's easy to imagine, but not realistic. What's more likely is that we educate/learn from each other and work to improve our government so that it works for us.