rx-8_or?

Rich: I'm not saying that 70% higher in engine torque MEANS 70% Faster in Speed. In the comparison btwn 11%(since u gave me the benefit of the doubt =p) more weight & 70% more torque I'm only saying that 70% in engine torque IS a big difference and I think that it should allow the Coupe to put more than 11% "torque at the rear wheels".

BTW I said that Coupe will be lighter because overall it will be a smaller car compared to the Sedan. YES the coupe does have the extra width but it is shorter in length.

I told YOU I knew about the gearing advantage.
What you are trying to say is this:

car A: 300torque @ 6000rpm
car B: 300torque @ 9000rpm

Car B will be faster in acceleration once car A has reached 6000rpm and has to shift into second gear because car B can keep going until it reaches 9000rpm.

I didn't use the equations and other blah blah blahs because it's too much trouble but didn't I get the overall concept correct??
Therefore you don't have to give me a lecture on something I ALREADY know. I told you I knew about the gearing already.
All I wanted to say from the last post is that you SHOULDN"T assume Rx-8 will be faster than the Coupe, that's all.
Anyways, can we end this argument now?

Rich

I never thought you did.
That's simply wrong. I've already explained it twice on this board. Looking at the peak torque values without looking at where they are produced is horribly misleading.
Perhaps. I don't know if it will be lighter, but I do know that the link that I provided above shows that it will be heavier. That's all I know. If you've got some other source, I'd take that one as well. The link doesn't seem to work now, I'll try again here. You can simply go to the Infiniti, g35, full review section to see it if the new link doesn't work.
No. This is wrong. This is, most emphatically, NOT what I was saying. If this is how you interpreted what I was saying, I can only ask that you read what I wrote again. It's tough stuff, and I probably didn't explain it as well as it could be explained.
You asked a question, I tried to answer it. There's no reason to get worked up about it. Based on what we know, the RX-8 could produce 3% less torque *at the wheels*, and is expected to weight at least 11% less. This means that it's entirely possible the RX-8 could be faster in a straight line. Then again, like I said before, we don't know enough to know for sure. We need the gear ratios, final drive ratio, final weights, full torque curves, drivetrain losses, etc., or we could wait for someone to drive them.
I never thought it was an argument, but if you want to end it, that's fine. I was simply trying to answer your question.

*** My apologies to the regulars here for flooding the forum with these long posts. I hope that I'm doing something positive by trying to answer people's questions, but let me know if it's just sounding like noise at this point. I don't want to be an obnoxious irritant. ***

Red Devil

Very informative Rich.

I say keep it up!

Toadman

Not a prob Rich. The 8 is still speculative. So everyone, let's keep an even keel until it's debut and we get some hard skidpad/dyno numbers, and save the comparisons until then.

KayakDaddy

They both seem like they will be great cars and here's one scenerio where they don't have to be competitors.

We are currently researching to replace my wife's BMW 328i with a larger but comparable car. Up until now I've been pretty much sold on getting a newer 5-series. I've had two BMW's and have been very satisfied with their great balance of sport and luxury. My wife drives like a grandma so I'd get a 528i instead of a 540i. For the price we are looking to spend, we'd be getting a 99-01 model.

Well I've been doing a little more reading and research and the Infinity G35 sedan has caught my eye. It won a recent comparison test in Road & Track between 11 world-class sports sedans. (see: http://www.roadandtrack.com/reviews/...?articleid=235 ) It's generally considered a competitor to the 3-series BMW but is a good deal less expensive than a 330i. The funny thing is, I've noticed that it has larger interior dimensions in every category than a 5-series BMW. It's trunk is also half again as large and has a larger opening. The Infinity also has a good bit more horsepower (260 vs. 195) and is about 300 lbs. lighter. To top it all off, I can get a brand new 2003 G35 for about the same price as a 2000 528i. I think we have a winner.

I plan on going to look at and test drive a G35 in a couple of weeks (there is no Infinity dealer in our town) and we plan on buying something for her before Christmas. I still think the BMW looks way better. We'll have to get a bright color to offset the G35's blandness.

As for me, I'm still a RX-8 man. I love the thought of a light weight, great handling machine with the high-reving regenisis rotary. It will suit my driving style much better and I love the styling. As long as my wife has a good sized car, I can have a smallish one. I still need the flexiblity of the usable rear seat that the RX-8 will afford. I look to get mine in early 2004.

See, under this scenerio, Mazda and Infinity are both winners and so are we!

enjoy

I agree, Mazda's upcomming line-up of cars is great in quality, performance, and looks. Infiniti also has improved, in my opinion they have better products Lexus.

The G35 is a great car, If it were me i would go with the G35, just because its brand new and Nissan has great reliability with the V6 engines.

BlueAdept

Sorry... the G35 just doesn't do it for me... it is probably a very good car, but IMHO is looks plain and uninteresting.... I can 't see how it's a competitor to the RX-8 other than in performance.

Has anyone thought about comparing the Lexus IS300 or dare I say the IS430... as I don't know what these cost in the US... but they do look nicer than the G35.

rx-8_or?

Rich I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say. You made a statement:
I thought this might not be correct, just like you said
That is why I made my posts. I wasn't trying to argue that G35 Coupe will be faster than the Rx-8. Just that you don't know for sure Rx-8 will be faster. However you sounded like rx-8 will only be faster, but not slower, with the top statement.

But thanks for providing me with an answer and all the information. Your theories are also reasonable, no doubt. Although I have no knowledge of the outcome between eg. a 250tq @ 4000rpm and 150tq @ 8000rpm in reality, I understand it is possible for the 150tq car to beat the 250tq one.
I do hope you will *still answer* my questions in the future if you can, as I have learned valuable knowledge through these posts.

RX-pecting

I've recently graduated to Member! I never made it that far in forums because my attention span doesn't allow me to stay chatting about the same thing to the same people for a long time, and I must say one of the things keeping me here is how much I'm learning about rotaries, the car I'm in love with, and the physics behind engines.

In matters regarding the latter, Rich you have hands down provided the clearest, easyest to understand, and most ample information I've gotten out of this forum. You've done it in both a patient and non condescending manner. If you're a teacher, you're a damn good one, and your students are extremely fortunate (you can quote me to them).

You're DEFINITELY not sounding like noise to me, keep up the info. Only thing is I wonder how you have the time to write all this?

RX-8_or? , you have alot of fresh questions, I like that. Keep those questions coming (just don't adress them all to Rich, god knows the mans written loads already )

Basically, thanks for the QnA guys!

natev

You guys want to know something really interesting.....no one in freshalloy's G35 section has even brought the mere thought of a RX-8 being a competitor....the RX-8 is on line to be (quoted from R&T article!!) a 6 second car.....the G35Sedan is a 6 second car WITH AN AUTOMATIC....the G35 will be more a mid 5's car in the M6 Sport...no doubt a few secs slower than the 350z, but "ON PAPER" it will be quicker 0-60 than the RX......funny how you guys seem so excited for a Prototype engine that could take years to work the bugs out? (that is what ruled out the Renesis for me). While the VQ has been around and won numerous "best engine" awards in it's lifetime.....hmmm?

ps. I also think that the G35 Coupe is anything but "regular" looking as someone here posted?? Are you crazy man?? They (RX and Coupe) are both exceptionally styled sports cars with the Coupe edging it out IMO.

BlueAdept

Show me a picture I can like... otherwise, I'm sticking to that opinion... it doesn't have anything to distinugish it from so many other cars, it's even dull looking in the photo's I've seen...

I like the IS200/300 Sport so I'm at least partly open to other makes..... LOL...

Anyway, In answer to your points about the competition, and the "experimental" renesis....

The Renesis engine isn't experimental in the sense tht you think... Mazda has beed developing these engines since the 60's AND this one is closely based on the 13B, used in the RX-7's that several people on the board have had close to 300,000 miles out of..... The Turbo RX-7's WERE often unreliable... but I have become convinced from reading many a horror story that the problems were mainly with the turbo's and at least contributed to by the lack of skill of the dealers to diagnose the problems.... Which should be less of a problem these days.
Since the Renesis is normally aspirated, there shouldn't be nearly the problems that plagued the later RX-7's as the engine is left in a configuration that has very few moving parts and none that have given a problem in the past without the engine being out of tune... which should be next to impossible with modern ECU software. When did you last need the head taken off your car for "maintainance"... Unless you're talking about this level of work, then an engine is an engine... and I have become convinced that we are very likley to see a reliable unit in the Renesis.... if not, there will probably never be another production rotary, so you can bet that Mazda has tested it to within an inch of it's life.

Also, performance is a moot point, the car will be quick... even very quick... and frankly I don't care if it beats another given car on paper. The reason is simple, it's a sports car... and on the road it's all about handling, feel and FUN. Half the RX-7 horror stories I have read resulted in people buying ANOTHER RX-7, because they loved the car so much dispite it's faults, and this can really only be due to the rotary engine which brings us back to the issues above. I'm sure it's gonna have the chasis and handling it promises... but the rotary is what drives people and it does have special magic all of it's own on top of the novelty value. Dare to be different.

natev

From the editor at R&T: "When the G35 Coupe was brought onstage at the NYIAS, everyone in attendance stopped and gawked. The new 2 door is striking with a low aggressive stance that befits a Sports car" - hmm how much press did teh RX get after the same show?

see attached:

Time will tell all.....and then some.
Do you plan on driving the RX at a constant 8000 RPMs or what? LOL..... ;o). They are both going to be extremely capable, freshly designed machines. I was just saying that I would NEVER buy a "prototype" first year engine. I actually had the first deposit in New England on the RX until I saw the G Coupe. I also currently drive a 2000 Millenia S, so yes, NNA converted me. To each his own.

ps: this is from a member here (Ozone):I do intend to purchase this car at some point, but I plan to wait at least a year, maybe two, to actually purchase. I have found it is usually a good idea to wait when a brand new model is released, especially with an unproven engine. Waiting will also give the hype a chance to die down and any initial quality problems to get sorted out. Case in point, my wife wanted to get the new Jeep Liberty when it came out last summer, but we decided to see how the reliable the cars turned out to be. Sure enough, there were some issues. DC got their act together, fixed the problems and I believe our Liberty is a much better car than the original models off the production line.

That's all I was trying to say. I'd wait until the gremlins are gone.
Anything good or bad to do with Renesis (on a long term basis) is pure speculation.

KayakDaddy

Hmmmm....
That picture of the G35 coupe just looks like a big Acura RSX. That's not a bad thing, just nothing ground breaking.

The Infinity will be an excellent car. I've already posted that I'll probably end up getting the G35 sedan for my wife. I'm OK with her driving a bland car, especially one that nice. It is bland though, I passed one today on the way to work, and I didn't get excited, even though I want one. I can't see me not getting excited the first time I pass a shiney new RX-8

The more I study them, the less I think Infinity and Mazda are going after the same demographics. The G35 coupe should be a refined and world class GT crusier/sports coupe and the RX-8 looks like it will be more of a pure sports car, only with four seats. Both of them should be great at what they do, but just made for different people.

BlueAdept

Our opinions on the looks of the cars aside...

I still argue that the Renesis engine is purely an evolution of a proven concept.... it is a simply a 13B in essence and as such isn't "experimental" any more than developments on other engines are.... The engine in the Honda S2000 is unique, but it is just an evolution on previous VTEC versions, for example. People are far too quick to brand somthing like this as excentric and "experimental" which is why it's never been truely accepted.

Not that I don't agree that there are probably going to be a few (hopefully) minor problems to be resolved in the beginning of the production... there often are. On the other hand, Mazda must be aware of the importance of this car to their future.... and I'm betting that it's been tested very very well, which may be why the concept has taken so long to realise.

The previous Mazda cars aside, NSU successfully marketed their rotary models from 1964 to 1977 (When they were absorbed into VW) and were ready to continue with new 3 rotor versions.... I don't quite follow... are you describing the rotary engine as experimental, or the Renesis as experimental... since the former has been well proven since the early 60's and the latter is the latest evolution of the well proven 13B.

ZoomZoom

I do not know about the “same show”, but I do recall the April 2002 R&T article (page 53):

I think they liked the rx8 styling. :D

zoom44

hehehe.... i just love that quote:D

ZoomZoom

Yes… it’s one of my favorites. :D

Rich

Why would anyone get one and not keep it pegged at the redline? :D
That's how I drive my Miata! Other than 1st, the engine never sees the area below 4k.

KayakDaddy, you took the words right out of my mouth. While both should be fantastic cars, I don't think there will be any contest for enthusiasts. I do think the auto rags are going to compare the two. They need to put the RX-8 in a comparison with something, and I bet the G35 coupe will be one of the standards in the price class.

natev

zoom zoomie, I only wrote in that quote b/c the RX (in yellow) was being displayed at the same NYIAS. It just didn't get any press for being there. And yes, I think we have all read that R&T quote....remember, that was almost 5 months ago though....LOL....j/k

Donny Boy

Nice body, uninspiring interior, blubbery weight, yet still good performance and Nissan reliability. Still, I'll take the RX-8 any day.

mach

Has anyone read this month's issue of Road and Track magazine? They have a great article on the G35 Sport Coupe with the 6-speed manual transmission. The G35C actually had better performance numbers around the track than the 350Z, but suffered a bit in acceleration due to its weight. The author (Sam Mitani, same fellow who wrote the article praising the RX-8) seemed to like the car quite a bit, saying it was very much a true sports car in contrast some of the other "Luxury Sports Coupes" out there.

Just a quick comparison of stats:
Stat = G35C vs. RX-8
Transmission = 6 M/T vs. 6 M/T
Horsepower = 280 @ 6200 RPM vs. 250 @ 8500 RPM (-30 HP)
Torque (ft-lbs) = 270 @ 4800 RPM vs. 162 @ 7500 RPM (-108 ft-lbs)
Curb Weight = 3435 lbs. vs. 2970 lbs. (+465 lbs.)
Weight Dist. = 54/46 vs. 50/50 (est.)
Wheelbase = 112.2 in. vs. 106.3 in. (-5.9 in.)
Length = 182.2 in. vs. 174.2 in. (-8 in.)
Width = 71.5 in. vs. 69.7 in. (-1.8 in.)
Height = 54.8 in. vs. 52.8 in. (-2 in.)
0-60 = 6.1 sec. vs. 6.0 sec (-0.1 sec.)
0 - 1/4 Mile = 14.6 sec. vs. 14.5 sec. (-0.1 sec.)

Please keep in mind that all of these statisics come from Road & Track, but the RX-8 stats are estimates only. However, you can see that the G35C is a significantly larger car than the RX-8, so the large differences in torque and power don't mean much when it comes to performance. I fully expect the RX-8 to be even with the G35C in straight-line performance, but to out-handle it in any given situation. The RX-8 is coming from the same company that build an economy car (Protoge MP3) that was compared to Ferraris and Porsches for high-speed handling! Imagine the handling of a purpose-built sports car from the same company. I expect it to be nothing less than phenominal.

So what it comes right down to is personal perference... both are great cars, both are very fast. Looks are in the eye of the beholder, though I personally think the RX-8 is much better looking than the G35C. In the end, all I can say is if you think you might like both, wait a couple of months and test drive the RX-8 and G35C back to back. Buy the car that makes you the happiest.

boowana

You know mach, i think you're right on the money. The reason I believe that Mazda is being so secretive about performance, etc; is that they want to blow the competition off the map when the cars finally hit the Auto mags and then the street. They are probably looking for maximum impact by announcing phenomenal performance and handling stats at or right after the launch. Nothing will help sales better than to have all the major magazines come out weith glowing reports. Let's hope that's the case.
Elsewhere i posted a performance comparison to the 3rd Gen RX-7. mazda has already told us that the RX-8 out handles (performs?) the 7. If that's the case, then my comparison might actually be close to real. Here's hoping.:D

irresistibo

Thats being real optimistic dog, but i hope your right, wouldnt it be amazing if they kept the weight under 2800lb and boosted power to 280 hp like they were supposed to do.

m477

Um, when did Mazda say that? Mazda said the 8 was more rigid, and rigidity does affect handling, but I really really doubt the 8 will pull 0.98g or be faster than an R1 around a track.

Grimace

Although I personally didn't see it, there was a video shown at SevenStock where a RX-8 was chasing a RX-7 around the track. While on the straights the RX-7 pulled away, the RX-8 actually made up time in the corners, and was able to hang with it.

Not many cars can out corner a 7... can't wait to drive this thing!