CradleTheFall

Hi guys, sorry about creating a new owner post, but none of them seem to answer my questions.

I am in the process of buying a 2004 RX-8 Hi Power 6 Speed Manual. The problem is that the apex seals need to be replaced. From what I've read this is normally because of a build up of carbon. But no where does it say just the apex seals go, it normally sounds like everything needs to be replaced when that happens. Am I buying a dudd car that the rest will all very quickly go wrong if it needs new apex seals?

Secondly, where can I get the PCM flash from? I live in South Africa and not 1 of the dealers here have even heard of the PCM flash. If I can find one on eBay will I be able to do the flash myself?

And then lastly, the flooding. From what I've read I am confused. Some say that turning the car off cold will flood it, others say that not letting the car warm up will flood it. Which is true? I work 30min away from my house, will I be able to jump in and go, or will I have to start the car and let it idle for a bit before I can drive it?

I have always loved the RX-8 ever since I saw it on Top Gear, it is also a really rare occurrence in South Africa. So no matter the problems I am prepared to live with them because of my love with this car.

yiksing

1. If apex seal is gone, u need an engine rebuild which means $$$ if the housings are also worn.

2. Flooding occurs if you turn off the car when it hasn't warmed up.

Whoever said "not letting a rotary engine warm up will flood it" is silly coz then you would have to put the engine on a stove to warm it before you can use it.

3. Worry about PCM after you get the car.

Don't buy this car.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Cradle, read the first several posts of this thread. It will help you a ton with the basics.

https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-forum-197/new-potential-owners-start-here-202454/

CradleTheFall

yiksing, you wouldn't buy this car then? What if the housing isn't worn? How could I check that?

RIWWP, thanks for the link, I've already read all of that, didn't see anything about the apex seals though.

yiksing, just to be sure, you're saying that I can just start the car and drive? No need to let it idle for a few mins? It's weird because 2 dealers here have told me that that is what you need to do with a rotary, I'd take your word over theirs anyday though.

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

The best way to tell if the engine apex seals are good is to get a compression test done at any Mazda dealership.

As with all cars you should keep the rev's down until warmed up (under 4k in this case), but it's just a waste of gas to sit at idle until warm.

terch1

iTrader: (2)

OP I wouldn't buy the car given what you stated in your opening post. You stated that the local dealers didn't know anything about a reflash. So my question is who is going to replace the apex seals and furthermore who is going to service the car when something goes wrong. Based on your current geographic location it does not sound like a car you should be purchasing. Even here in the states there are very few shops outside of the Mazda dealerships that know enough about the car to perform maintenance on it. Hell some of the dealerships don't know what there doing.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Sorry, i assumed you knew the connection between apex seals and engine failure.

Basically, the common loss of compression is due to apex seal wear, which is from lack of lubrication, which is in part due to mazda's insufficient cooling and oil injection. It is also possible to simply get an inferior build quality on the engine with too great of seal tolerances, which makes everything worse (power, lifespan, mileage, etc). Buying used is riskier for you than most due to rarity and distance. If you are set on an 8, then you need to get comfortable with the idea that your engine can fail, and have a plan. Whether shipping the engine elsewhere for rebuild, buying another engine, or learning how to do it yourself.

If you cant get comfortable with that, don't buy this car.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Just a question: how does the seller know the apex seals need to be replaced? What symptoms does it actually have?

CradleTheFall

Well, after talking a bit with the dealer, he says that there is a RX-8 technician in Cape Town, which is over 800kms away. But this technician is apparently the best guy to go to with anything Rotary in SA.

He told the dealer that the apex seals need replacing. After reading yiksing's post I contacted the dealer and as far as he knows there has been no damage to the housings. So will just replacing the seals be enough? Or am I looking at more trouble down the line?

The dealer is offering me a 2 year extended warranty on the car, which he assures me will cover anything that can go wrong with a rotary. But it is very expensive.

I've asked the technician that is working on the car to do a compression test once the apex seals have been replaced, what kind of results should I look out for?

RIWWP, if the apex seals get replaced before the engine fails, will the engine still be okay?

Huey52

iTrader: (2)

Loss of power due to low compression. Rotary apex seals are relatively similar in function to piston rings. If gases are leaking by the seals you lose compression.

Bigbacon

iTrader: (4)

don't buy any of the crap they are saying about the rotary tech guy 800km away unless you actually see some documentation saying that it was ripped apart and needs to be replaced....

Dealers will make **** up to get you into the car....

EDIT:
Stupid to buy the car with bad seals, asking for trouble and more $$$ just to get it fixed. DON'T buy it....

Honestly, find an 06+ unless you can be 100% sure that all the updates have been done and the engine is still well with in spec.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Your outlook improved greatly. You should find out if he has any experience rebuilding rotary engines. AND REFERENCES. Don't just take his word for it.

My concern here is the part that is bolded. I assume he got a compression test done, and the compression came back low, and is ASSUMING that it is just apex seal wear. Don't get me wrong, it's a good assumption. But unless he disassembled the engine, he can't know what is or is not wrong within it. Well. Maybe. Technically with a lighted small camera, you can feed it into a spark plug hole and look, and you can check each apex seal from each side, but you will only see about half of the housing this way and none of the side seals, so you still can't know if they need replacing. No quality engine rebuilder I have ever heard of talks about it this way, or makes that assumption.

Realistically, until the engine is disassembled for a rebuild you CAN NOT know that everything else is perfectly fine. Even if it is, then the "little bits" (as I call them) still should always get replaced every time the engine is pulled apart. Oil control rings, side seals, etc... You CAN get by without replacing them, but the act of disassembling and reassembling isn't something they were designed for, and it's easy to damage used ones further.

I also suggest you get away from thinking about it as "replacing the apex seals". Even if that is all you are doing, it is technically an engine rebuild. Pulling the engine out of the car, putting it on a table, disassembling it completely, replacing seals and control rings, then incredibly carefully reassembling it and reinstalling it. There are a few self-build threads on here that you can read up on to see how easy it is to mess something up and have to start over.

Unless it's more expensive than paying for a pull and rebuild, or you get that rebuild prior to purchase, then it's probably worthwhile paying for. All non-engine stuff is ridiculously easy to work on or fix yourself. Engine stuff is where it gets tricky. Small simple engine keeps costs down, but rarity means not many people know how to do it, which drives cost up.

Depends on if you are getting PSI or BAR readings. In BAR, you should have greater than 8.0 on all faces at a crank speed of 250rpm. Increase cranking speed increases compression on this, reducing crank speed reduces compression. There is a normalization chart. If you get better than 9.0 you have a fantastic engine. Mazda failure point is 6.9s.

HOWEVER, keep in mind that over the first few hundred to few thousand miles, the seals wear in to match the housing, so a few engine rebuild can have poor compression until it finishes bedding in. By 5,000 miles it's done though.

If the engine gets rebuilt at all, by a quality builder with the correct things replaced, then it should be good for quite a long time. Being South Africa, I would HIGHLY recommend getting the cooling modifications to keep it cool. It's so much of the battle to keep the engines lasting a long time. Heat breaks down the oil too fast, and our engines run really hot.

A bad rebuild, with even a tiny thing wrong or out of place and you could have another failure within literally 5 miles. Another owner on here got his rebuilt engine back and it was already dead from a tiny shift in position of one of the bearings, though rebuild or damage during shipment is still in question.




If it seems like I am trying to scare you, I apologize, I'm not.

But you need to go into this purchase with your eyes as wide open as possible. There are risks even where Mazda provided the 100k warranty, lots of local dealers, and specialized GOOD rebuilders. Your location makes the risks alot more dangerous, and costly.

yiksing

Best case scenario of worn out apex seals:

Engine well maintained but apex seals wears out over time, car loses power or mpg minutely over long time then one day compression goes too low, you can't start engine...

Worst case scenario:

Apex seal broke off during operation of engine at high rpm, piece that broke off gets wedged somewhere and took out the housing.

In order to check the housing, they would have to tear the engine apart and measure, only then they know what is needed for a proper rebuild.

I have watched the whole 2 hour video of a 13B rebuild by someone from rx-7 forum, while the process is generally easy (small number of parts involved) but experience of rebuild plays a greater part. There are some attention to detail involved and one mess up is all it takes to kill a newly rebuilt engine.

So if your dealer or whoever is doing a rotary rebuild is not experienced, this car or any rotary car is a "Don't buy".

slayer22

mind sending me the link to this? or posting it on here.. im curious lol

CradleTheFall

I'd just like to thank everyone that posted here and explained everything to me.

I never knew that replacing the apex seals involved disassembling the whole engine. And then it takes real experience to put it back together right.

I think because of that I am going to go for this car. It is a little too risky.

Currently there are about 7 of these for sale all around the country. I think I've found a pretty decent one, seeing that the first one is out of the question. This one has done around 85 000 miles, but has an aftermarket exhaust system on it. From what I've read I think I will try find a standard exhaust for it, although I highly doubt the availability of these.

RIWWP, could you let me know the exact name of the cooling mod? I'll have to try find it on eBay.

Thanks again for all your help. I'm driving my gf mental because now that I can afford a RX-8 it's all I want. She wants something sensible, reliable and preferably, not that fast...

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I told me wife that the 8 wasn't that fast, it's peak torque is lower than her van's. Use that excuse

There are a variety of reliability mods that you should consider seriously. Unfortunately all of them are located in the US, so shipment is something to take into consideration, but both ship internationally as well, and are fantastic vendors and will work with you on the details. I would also highly highly recommend you go direct to them. They don't rob you blind, they don't overprice their products, and they offer first class support and assistance. Getting it from anywhere else will demand close to full price for their products anyway, without the service, support, and with a chance at getting scammed.

Mods: (prices in US)
From Mazmart (Mazmart.com, also "Mazmart" user ID here if you want to PM them)
REmedy Thermostat - $65 + shipping - Reduces the temperature that coolant is allowed to flow through the radiator at. OEM is too high, around 210 I think
REmedy Waterpump - $265 + shipping - OEM water pump for 2004-2008 model years is a poor design and cavitates the coolant at high RPM, dramatically reducing coolant flow in high RPM. This waterpump has redesigned vanes that resolve this problem. 2009+ model years OEM water pump was redesigned to be similar to this mod, but they also changed the bolt pattern so it's not a direct swap between the years
REmedy Oil Pressure Pellet - $55 + shipping - Prior to the 2004 RX-8, all RX-# had oil pressures of 110 to 150psi range OEM. For some reason they dropped this to 40-80psi for the RX-8, but raised it back again for 2009 model year +. This pellet is a hybrid between an RX-7 pellet and the RX-8 one, increasing the series 1 oil pressure back up to match all other rotaries.

From Black Halo Racing (Blackhaloracing.com), "Charles R. Hill" + other employees on the forum here
- BHR Ignition upgrade - $485 shipped within US, your shipping is probably additional - Eliminates the coil failure problems from the OEM RX-8 coils, as well as improving the stability of the ignition spark across the entire RPM range. How much of a gain you will see in HP and MPG depends on how bad yours currently are, but brand new OEM to BHR is still a faint increase reported. BHR will not market to either power or MPG on this, as that is not the intent, but many people report increases in both.


There is also the COBB AccessPORT, which is discontinued, so you will have to find a used one from members here. Don't go the Ebay route for them. You want one that was coded for RX-8s specifically, including MazdaManiac's RX-8 improvements such as lower temp fan trigger speed and increased oil injection rate. You generally get a power boost on top of those reliability points.

CradleTheFall

Amazingly someone actually put an 06 Hi Power on sale last night. BigBacon seemed to suggest that an 06 wouldn't give as many problems? It's going for the same price as the 04 that5 I was first interested in.

Can you guys let me know what changes were made to the 06? Would it still need all the mods to cool it down?

I'd just like to thank you guys for helping me with the one with the apex seals, I was a few min away from putting a deposit down on it.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The 2004 and 2006 are fundamentally the same.

The difference is, the 2004 spent at least a year to a year and a half with a bad flash from the factory that didn't inject enough oil. The 2006 had it from the start.

There are other minor changes too though, like the improved tailight gasket so they never got the tailight moisture problem 2004s and 2005s did. The new upgraded starter was in place for all 2006 builds, vs only some of the 2005s and non of the 2004s.

That initial flash makes alot of difference in the life of the engine though, 2006 is a better option if you can afford it.

Bigbacon

iTrader: (4)

I wouldn't even worry about all the mods unless you really really want to do them. least to me, reliability of the car isn't something you can really fix or change. Lots of people have kept great care of theirs and added mods and what not and are still on engine #2 or #3....

There are still plenty of 8s out there that don't have those mod and are still running strong.

yiksing

Its a torrent link so i'm not sure i can post it up on forum but have a search on your favorite torrent sites for "Rotary Engine Assembly Class". It took me about 3 weeks to fully download it coz there are only 1 or 2 seeders left.

Never L8

iTrader: (5)

It's been said a millions times already, but just allow me to reiterate the point here...

DO NOT PURCHASE THIS CAR!

The is the best advice you will receive from any member here on your situation.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I have no problems recommending that someone purchase it, as long as they understand the risks, differences, and etc... about the car. Going into it with your eyes closed is where the problems start.

I'd rather buy a car that I expect the engine to fail and can plan for than one that I have no idea at all that it might and then it does. (Toyota Corolla...)

CradleTheFall

So, a 1997 RX-7 Efini twin turbo 13b just came on the market here. Are they any easier to live with than a RX-8?

I'm sure I saw somewhere that the RX-7s are a better car, besides being faster, they were not messed with because of global warming. I'm sure I read that because of this there were no downsides to owning one like the 8.

I'm having a really tough time deciding what to do here. I think the RX-7 must just be my saving grace.

RX8_R3

I understand your obssesion with this car. Went to a local dealership a while back and plucked down mucho dinero for a brand new 2009 R3 (can't fight love at first drive). That being said, what 25 years of car ownership has taught me is: spend extra money for a car that runs flawlessly. you will actualy save money in the long run. You might have to wait a bit to find one, but just like finding the perfect girlfriend, you will save yourself a sh&tload of problems by being patient.

RX8_R3

Unless someone knows something I don't, the 8 is a much better car.