IKnowNot'ing

Mazda is a generic + niche auto-maker. It's not a premium brand. Add to that Ford upper management and you probably obtain some cost cutting here and there.

Nevertheless, I turned down a (second hand) Audi S4 V6T and a Lexus IS200 (it's a I6 2.0L 6MT around here) for my Lo Power RX8 5MT and I must admit it looks and feels like a premium brand product. So bye bye Audi after owning 5 of them.

Japanese car are usually well rated for reliability, not really on perseved quality (materials, textures...). But this is changing rapidly too.

And if flooding IS a real, wide-spread issue, expect a fix soon.

Elara

The problem here is that we have tons of people like Ike (no offense meant, Ike) that love to skew polls. There's no guarantee on any of those numbers. There's no way to know if anyone o here is making stuff up, just because they hate the car. These really aren't scientific polls, and it only takes 10 hating members to completely destroy any meaningful data on the subject.

With that said, I don't know if the flooding is an issue or not. In 10k miles, I've never had a problem, and I don't know of anyone else in Richmond, at least, who has either. Doesn't mean it isn't there, though. However, if you're worried about it, go buy something else.

RX8_GT

Flooding is an issue out there - I'm a three times RX owner and concerned - not because it affects me much although I have flooded once.

What the issue does is adversely affects the future of the rotary in the Americam market. The average RX8 buyer in the US is not and never will be an rotorhead - in 2004 Americans expect to turn the key and go - stop it when they're there - be it 300 miles down the road or 30 feet down the driveway.

I hope there is a way that Mazda can program the ECU around this real world issue.

John

PS I LOVE my RXs - plan on having them when I die or longer. Wife thinking about saving the money of a coffin and planting me at wheel pointing skyward or perhaps straight down.

Sue Esponte

In my opinion bang for the buck has more to do with features than quality or reliability. As far as...

1) Quality: Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti, Nissan, and even BMW and Audi, etc. offer competitve vehicles with comparable quality.
2) Reliability: Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti, Nissan, and even BMW and Audi, etc. offer competitve vehicles with comparable reliability.
3) Features: Here's where, in my opinion, Acura shines. From more powerful engines to electronics that are optional upgrades in competitive vehicles Acura's list of standard features is typically a bit longer than other comparably priced cars.
4) Performance: Toyota, Lexus, Infiniti, Nissan, and even BMW and Audi, etc. offer competitve vehicles with equal or better performance.

If someone's goal is to have "as many features as you can get" for the price of a moderate to sparsely optioned competitor...go for it. Then again, how much bang for the buck are you truly getting when you consider that an RSX is nothing more than a tuned Civic. If I was in the market for a TSX, I'd spend the extra cash on a 325. Having driven both, for me, a simple test drive tells the tale...but that's what makes the world go around.

-Eric

Sue Esponte

Audi may have a lot of problems but exploding 1.8T engines isn't one of them. The 1.8T is one of the most maleable and durable engines in the industry, and is offered across the VW/Audi line-up (Golf, Jetta, Passat, A3, A4, TT) not just the TT. Many 1.8T owners have experienced blown diverter valves (no big deal at all) but the issue was largely remedied by an upgraded Bosch component and the worst thing most owner's experienced from the malfunctioning valve was diminished power.

-Eric

srm858

I know there has been much discussion about the flooding problem with the 8. It seems at this point, most people feel it is not an issue. I must disagree.

This is my first rotary engined car, but I have years of experience with various Fiats, Hondas, VW's, etc. I have rebuilt engines, and transmissions and do all my own maintenance. I know cars and I love my RX8.

However, I have flooded the car twice in 5700 miles. The first time I thought the ignition got wet, because of heavy rain the day before or from washing the car. I started the car, backed it out of the garage, washed it, then pulled it back in. It would not start the next day or for 3 more days. I gave up and had it towed to the dealer. $300 later, I got my car back.

3 days ago, now fully aware of the flooding issue and the process to get it started, it again flooded. I had washed the car a few days before and the car had sat in the garage. It started right away and when I went to pull out, the brakes stuck slightly and the car stalled. It would not start again. I gave up and drove my 92 Accord to work.

I came home and followed the procedure exactly. Floor the gas, then crank for 10 seconds. Turn off the car, take foot off gas and crank for 10 seconds. It did this procedure for 20 minutes (giving a little time in between to let the starter cool) and it still wouldn't fire up. The battery started to die, so I quit and put it on a charger.

I came back in an hour and tried again. After about 15 minutes it finally came to life with a huge amount of smoke. It seems to be running fine, but now I'm paranoid about stalling at startup. If I had not been in my garage, the car would have ended up being towed.

If this was a Ford Taurus with this problem, there would be a huge recall and many pissed off people. There is no excuse for a modern car to act this way, rotary or not.

I have written Mazda about this and hope to hear a response from them. Right now I am very concerned about letting my wife or anyone else drive the car. If they stall at startup, they are stuck.

My current plan is if this happens again, to have it towed to the dealer. After 3 times and they have not fixed it, Massachusetts lemon law comes into play. I have told Mazda this, also.

No matter how much I love the car, I am not going to live in fear of it not starting and leaving me stranded. When a 92 Accord with 180k miles is more reliable, it's sad. Especially, since I bought the Accord for $1500 to drive as a winter car, because the 8 is so expensive to fit snow tires with wheels, and pressure monitors.

I was recommending this car to everyone. Now, I can no longer do that. I'll say, stick with a Honda, they always start.

Scott Martin

sferrett

I can say exactly the same thing about my rx8 - except with only 10k miles on it. So, like I said, IMO it's not an issue. I don't worry about it and it doesn't worry me.

I've done some cold shutdowns as a test and never experienced the problem, however I do know that it's a possibility, so I just take heed to the short trip procedue. As far as not wanting to wait 5 mins before shutting the car down, that's only in the case where you're destination is less than 5 mins away - which is quite rare. If most of your trips are sub 5-mins then I would recommend against buying this car.

Psylence

Robert, you are a fool. Sure your 86 GTS will always start BECAUSE IT DOESN'T HAVE THE SAME KIND OF EMISSIONS REQUIREMENTS THAT A NEW CAR DOES.

Damn. Are we clear on that **** yet?

Sue Esponte

Dude, again with the hostility. Ever hear of prozac?

From everything I've read about this problem, modern emissions requirements aren't the problem. They may not help the cause, but they're not the cause of the flooding. Besides, as I've said before, I've owned (and own) several modern cars for which flooding isn't a problem. As I understand it, flooding is more a result of the nature of a rotary and the way fuel is fed into the engine....which is why flooding was also n issue for an '86 RX7 owner (whereas it wasn't for the Celica owner).

If the flooding issue isn't an issue for you, then just move on to the next post, nothing to see here. Like I've said before, the issue hasn't deterred me...but that's just me. Everyone's entitled to their concerns...and this is definitely a legitimate one. Let it go dude.

-Eric

Sea Ray

The first question I have to ask, did you warm the car up before turning off each time. I assume you did since it sounds like you have read all the threads on here.

My service dept manager says they always rev the car to 3k and turn it off and have no problems so he recommends that when turning off. I have not flooded, about 2400 miles so far, and I usually don't rev it at shut down but the car is always fully warmed up.

Don't give up yet because they supposedly are working on a means of detecting if the last shut down was cold, then automatically stop fuel flow for a few seconds upon the next start up. However some, and maybe you too, have reported flooding even with a warm engine, so who knows if that is the cure all.

Good Luck.

Gord96BRG

This first incident doesn't count - you did exactly what you're NOT supposed to do. Hardly the car's fault, is it? If you had been aware of the flooding issue, you would never have done that (start, back up, stop; start, pull in, stop).

Regards,
Gordon

Aratinga

Scott, was the car warmed up completely before you shut it down after pulling it out of the garage to wash it??? You don't mention allowing the car to idle up to operating temps either time. Now, if you had it idling the whole time you washed it, and the engine was fully warm when pulled it back into the garage and turned it off, you can tell me to #$%^& off -- but I'm betting it was a cold shutdown both times.

The "Quick Tips Reference Guide" (the little softcover tabbed booklet) that you should have received with the car clearly states on the "Getting Started" page what to do.

I don't question your expertise with piston engines... but comparing them to a rotary is apples to oranges. Warming it before shutting it down is a simple way to avoid flooding in the future. Try it.

Reeko

Re-read his post.
The first time it sounds like you are right, he shut it off cold.
But, the second time, he basically stalled the car right after startup.

Personally, I think it is not an issue, and definaltely not a lemon. Because, worst case, you could let the car warm up a few minutes before driving.
I have never flooded mine, but I always make sure to shut it off cold. I have never stalled it cold, because I am careful to get the revs up before slipping out the clutch. Even if the brakes are locked, you should be able to tell before the car stalls.

AF-RX8

I think we are all wondering this as well ... I will admit that the whole flooding issue is always on my mind and I am always happy when my car starts !!!

2 days ago I had to move the car twice only a few feet, once at my office and once at my home and both times I had to leave and drive around a little bit to make sure the car wasn't cold, I wait for the temp gauge to get 2 or 3 marks from the 'C' and then shut down . .. it is a little crazy to have to do this just to avoid flooding but I love the h*ll out of this car so I am willing to put up with it.

srm858

I agree, the first time was my fault, but I still couldn't get it started again.

The second time, the car started just fine. It was idling and when I went to back out of the garage it stalled. The brakes had rusted a bit after the wash and sitting, grabbed, then let go. I knew I was screwed and the car was flooded. But, it would not start again during the short time I tried. I had to get to work and did not have time to mess with it.

I don't see how reving the engine before shutdown would help in this situation. I wasn't planning to stop the car, I wanted to go to work.

My concern is the car starts fine from cold, then is accidentally stalled shortly after. You know, you forget the brake is on and you try to back out, or you foot slips on the clutch, or any of a dozen things that can happen when you first start out. This is only going to happen once in awhile, but when it does you are in big trouble from my experiences.

willhave8

I think the point is - Why should we have to even worry about such a phenomena with a modern car?

Yes, we are all aware of it. Yes we know we should make sure it is warm before shutting it off. But geesh, it really doesn't feel right to even have to worry about it. This is not a cheap or low tech car.

I too love my 8, but I am not going to be happy when it floods for the first tme and I have to pay $300 to get it fixed. It should simply not be - period.

Sea Ray

If that happens it would not hurt to hold the gas petal down for 5 secs or so then release. That should allow any excess fuel to either be burned or removed. Also try using 87 or 89 octain gas.

The reason behind reving it up and turning it off is that the rotors will continue to spin for a few moments with the fuel pump off, this will clear excess fuel. So at next start up you don't have 'extra' fuel sitting in there. This is how I understand the basic issue, others may have better understanding I'm sure.

If and when mine ever does flood, I plan on holding the petal down for several 10 secs durations before trying it with gas being injected. And if possible I will have a battery charger hooked up, or have the car jumped, so that the engine is being turned over with full power. But I hope not to have to see if that works

Sue Esponte

$300?! This isn't covered under warranty?

-Eric

Elara

yes, it is, so your dealer obviously needs a call from Mazda corporate. And can we PLEASE stop opening new threads about this? There are so many already, that this could have just been added to....

edit

I went ahead and merged this with the latst "problems" thread...

desmo996

I flooded my car once. Asked people in the forum how to solve my problem. Got resolution and moved on. Now I know what to do in order to minimize flooding. Can we beat this dead horse a little harder (add sarcasm).

Trx8

Originally posted by Robert

I expect more from a brand the caliber of Mazda, particularly in their flagship model. It's simply unacceptable in today's market.


Yes, I had the same reaction when I first heard about the "flooding problem", it was, at first, unbelievable. It was one of the reasons that I decided not to buy an RX-8, and that is a legit position to take. For sure, some people have had flooding problems with their RX-8s. I complained to dealers, complained to Mazda, etc. Then I gave up and walked away from the RX-8, determined to buy a different car.

Except, I wanted an RX-8, and try as I might, that was an unescapable consequence. As I would browse the web looking for other cars, these (damn) reviews of the RX-8 would keep appearing in my search engine. I looked at BMW, Lexus, Mercedes, Acura, Nissan, Hyundai, Mitsubishi, Audi, VW, Honda, Saab, and Jaguar (probably more that I have forgotten). The closest competitor was an Audi A4, and it was very distant 2nd place.

Then, out of frustration, and with the help of this forum, I read everything I could read on the "problems" with the RX-8, and internally resolved that each of these problems was manageable. Yes its possible the engine may flood, no I don't want it driven by valet parking, if it gets backed out of the garage and turned off, it may flood, and no its not a Honda Accord -- when you turn the key ...it runs. Well, actually my Honda Accord blew a radiator, 300 miles from home, on a Sunday morning. My Honda Odyssey's transmission self-destructed once when my wife and son were driving it. Those were unfortunate events and huge distractions, but we fixed them and moved on. Our cars have also been hit by other drivers, and those were even more unwanted events we needed to deal with. Hence a problem free car isn't realistic.

For the 99.xyz% percent of the time that a car isn't giving you trouble, what do you want to drive, how are you willing to adapt your expectations, what risks are you willing to take? Yes, the RX-8 is an imperfect car, and arguably some of its imperfections are surprising, maybe shocking, but for me anyway, over time, they became minor issues to protect against and to be on-guard for, forewarned is forearmed ... then move on, pick the options and buy the car!

I bought an RX-8 with the exact options I wanted, yes it may ding me sometime (as did my Hondas), I learned about the car, figured out what was important to me, and took steps to minimize problems. I drive it everyday and I love it. Its not like one of the six previous Hondas I owned, but I didn't really like those cars anyway, they were transportation from A-to-B. I like owning and driving my RX-8.

You may not get to comfort on the RX-8 ever, and the unstructured exchange in this thread may not be providing you with the critical mass of information you need to formulate a solid perspective. My guess is this forum (and other places) have that information, but it will take some effort to find it and internalize it.

Sue Esponte

Couldn't have said better myself...except for the part about owning one...I don't...yet

-Eric

787B

this is really a non issue. In my experiance of 5 Rotary Mazdas, i really wouldnt be worried AT ALL. Many cars will flood after being started up and moved, then shut down within 25-60 seconds. It is NOT a good move for any car, and should be avoided. Thats not to say that we dont all do it for convience, but that we should, if possible not do it, as it is pretty catastrophic for teh cars longevity.
That said, i have never STARTED MY rX, STALLED IT, AND THEN NOT BEEN ABLE TO START IT. NEVER. So, dont sweat this.

Habeeb

It is a possibility 787B, that your 5 older rotary cars are not comparable with the RX8. You and others make comparisons to how reliable the rotary has always been. That is basically true if the car has been properly maintained. This car however, has the first major engine design changes in decades and comparing the Renesis to an older rotary may not apply. The flooding IS an issue because it happens. Maybe not to your vehicles but it does with the 8. Mazda again has dropped the starter speed to 175 rpm, your older rotaries spin much faster. The CCA rating on the batteries is 300 or so, hardley enough to offer serious cranking power. The new side seal to corner seal clearances, while specs remain the same, are much wider, as people are just finding out. The side seal to corner seal clearances are crucial for starting. The Renesis has so many new developments, flat housing exhaust, cut off seal, tapered side seals and on and on. The comparisons you make to the older rotaries may, again, not be valid here. I fact, I may be so bold in saying, they do not apply.

sferrett

Exactly my thoughts (except I haven't managed to flood it) - just either accept it as a risk (or not) and move on with your life. If it happens, then I'll deal with it. Until then, I'm not going to worry about it.

The beat-a-dead-horse thing is really what gets me going, seems like every 4th day some other prospective owner asks "what about getting stranded in nowhereville when I flood" and I suppose it's just getting kinda old.

As to comparing older rotaries reliability to the renesis - excellent points, but it works both ways. If you're going to discount the longevity of a well maintained non-turbo 13B because of the differences in the renesis engine, then you cannot also compare to the twin-turbo 13B in the FD which was more prone to early failure and then paint the renesis with that same brush either.

Srm858 points out a possibly valid concern, except that stalling a cold engine does not imply that you will flood it. I spent a week doing just that and was able to restart the cold engine just fine in every case. So stopping a cold engine does not guarantee in any way that it will flood, however the chance is greater and it sounds like you got the wrong side of the coin...

And now we've got some more lovely dis-information by willhave8 about $300 to get it fixed - I just can't wait until someone new starts yet another thread with that in it as fact. I agree you shouldnt have to worry about flooding, which is precisely why I don't.

Simon