captain_pie

So, I've had my 2007 RX-8 for about 3.5 years (bought it used, but the previous owner put less than 4,000 miles on it and it still had the new car smell), I've put just over 23,000 miles on it and everything was going great right up until about a week ago.
After a little bit of driving around having a little fun (nothing extreme, only redlined it once and just barely at that), I'm on my way home slowing down for a stop light, got the clutch pushed in and the engine is at about 2,000 and dropping, and suddenly... crunch crunch rattle, engine stalls. I roll into the nearest gas station (oddly enough, right across the street from the dealer where I got the car). I try to start it and it cranks and I've got ignition but it just won't quite run and it's cranking unevenly. By this time I'm about 80% sure it just ate an apex seal. Hoping that it's just a bad ignition coil or two, I disconnect all the coils and try to start it again to see if it cranks evenly, it goes around about one time then THUNK. The engine is now completely locked up and won't budge. So I go across the street to the dealer and they have it towed there. It was about 15 minutes before they close so I leave and come back the next day around 5 PM. They haven't even touched it yet. So, I come back the next day around the same time and talk to the same guy and he says "we doing a compression tes- oh wait, no... uhh, the technician says he wants to try a few more things to make sure it's not the starter or something". Obviously not the starter but I humor him, say nothing, and wait until the next day. He tells me they talked to someone at Mazda and they want proof of oil changes. I had two of the oil changes done at the dealership but they can only find records of one and I lost the receipt for the other one, so I ask him what else would work and he tells me I can use the flaps off the oil filter boxes. I gathered up five of those, each has the date, mileage, filter model number, everything. So they fax the one receipt from the dealership and the five filled out flaps. Next day, I get a call saying Mazda won't accept that, but I can buy a new engine and send the old one back and if Mazda decides it wasn't my fault then they'll reimburse me.
They still haven't even done anything to the car yet so it seems all they're telling Mazda is that some guy guy came in with a seized engine and that they have no proof that I changed the oil at all. I got a 1-800 number to call for Mazda to see if I can get one of them who knows something about it to call me back, but I haven't called yet. I asked the guy at the dealership if they could take the engine apart and send pictures or pieces or samples, or take an oil sample and send that to prove I'm not lying but he just disimissed it immediately and says no without even checking.

TLDR: Dealership doesn't want to help me get a new engine that has been treated right, broke through no fault of my own, and is WELL within the warranty period unless I give them a few thousand dollars with no guarantee I'll get any of it back.

What do you think should I do?

Edit: I guess I should also mention that the guy I spoke to said the usual reason for people 'having this problem' is that they ran their car out of oil. He didn't sepcify that he was talking about the RX-8 in specific so he may have been just talking about cars in general. And, since there's only about 7-8 RX-8's in this entire town and I've never heard of this happening, I'm thinking he just guessed that's what the problem is and assumed that's what happened. I'm probably gonna call that number tomorrow and then depending on what I get from that, go see the manager at the dealer and figure something out.

Jedi54

iTrader: (7)

The dealerships are not allowed to open up the Renesis motors, those go back to the Reman plant for inspection / rebuilding.

It's unacceptable that you had oil changes done at the dealership and "they can't find it." Have you asked to speak with the service manager?
The extended warranty explicitly states that the owner is responsible for showing proof of maintenance so they need to find that 2nd work order and you should be allowed to supply the rest.

here's what I would do.
have you registered your car on mazdausa.com?
if not, grab your vin and register
there is a maintenance log on there, fill it out with the info off your filler tabs.
print, submit to mazda

we've seen other members do this and mazda has honored the warranty.

the trick is, don't start screaming and yelling. You seem like a cool customer so far and that'll be what get the job done when you speak to the dealership manager or Mazda.

RX8Soldier

iTrader: (24)

At how many miles did you usually change oil? What exactly was the cause of the failure?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Contact MNAO, probably that 1-800 number you have. The 6 "proof" bits you have, at the recommended high-demand change frequency of 5,000 miles is 30,000 miles. So that's more frequent than their recommendation (you have 27,000 now from my math?) At no point does warranty law require a specific form, or receipt, or anything more than a "log". The burden of proof is on them, not you. However, most dealers that try to bypass this use the 'fraud' explanation, indicating or claiming that you are lying or faking the records. This does often shift the proof back to you to prove you aren't. However, they still need a basis for that claim, and it doesn't sound like they do.

It's also possible that the dealer simply doesn't want to do the paperwork for one reason or another, and are claiming that it's denied. The "if Mazda decides it's not your fault" is BS. I've never heard of a post-replacement inspection or teardown that gets back to the owner of any type. If they are doing that at all, you would expect at least some are ones that Mazda decides against the owner and then bills them for it, and there hasn't been a peep of that at all on here. There would be owners screaming blood murder if that happened.

So, yeah. Call MNAO and discuss it with them.

captain_pie

@Jedi54
Haven't registered there yet... I'll try that.

@RX8Soldier
Changed the oil about every 3k miles (can't really change it too often, can you?)
As for the cause, I have no idea. I think I did everything right and it appears one of the apex seals was defective or broken from the factory and just broke to pieces and jammed between the housing and rotor, or is stuck in one of the ports. They haven't done anything with it yet so I won't know for sure for at least a week, assuming they even tell me at all.

@RIWWP
Yeah, it seems to me like the dealership is the problem. I haven't read any horror stories here on rx8club about Mazda trying to get out of a warranty for no good reason. I'll let you guys know what I find out after talk to them. It'll probably be sometime tomorrow.

Thanks for the advice, guys

RX8Soldier

iTrader: (24)

well, if you have the records of your changes, then you shouldn't have an issue.
I'm curious how the apex seal was damaged like that. Was your car throwing any CEL's prior to the damage?

captain_pie

@RX8Soldier
It gave no warning at all. Everything sounded fine, no power loss, no check engine light... just made some nice breaking metal noise and stopped running.

captain_pie

Update: I just got off the phone with the Mazda rep, and she basically told me that what I submitted was acceptable proof and that it did not specify on her computer that they had denied it as proof. She said she'd have to contact the local representative and talk to him to find out exactly what his response was and that she'll call me back some time today or tomorrow. I'm on my lunch break right now so it will be a bare minimum of 4 hours before I find out what their response is and let you guys know how it's going.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Sounds about right.

The unfortunate part is that the rep will take the dealer's word over yours, even if they lie through their teeth. For example, the dealer could tell the rep a story about you that isn't accurate, the rep agrees, tells you it's denied, the dealer tells you it's denied, and you don't hear the actual reason for it. So here is hoping that the dealer isn't going to be telling incorrect statements.

Good luck with it.

captain_pie

Another update: I got a call back from the Mazda rep and she says the dealership technician said that I had run it out of oil. I know with absolute certainty that this has never happend. I'm quite angry right now, but I bit my tongue and went in and talked to a manager at the dealership. I explained to him what's going on and that I needed to have them prove to Mazda that I did NOT run it out of oil. He mentioned that if it comes to it, he can have them take some oil out of the oil coolers to prove that I did not add any after the fact. He said he was still waiting on a response from Mazda and that he would be contacting them tomorrow morning to tell them I am adamant that I did not run it out of oil and that they would be willing to test the oil to show that. He seemed like he was interested in helping me and that he was going to actually put some effort into this, but you never know.

Basically, the dealership says Mazda is the one causing trouble and Mazda says it's the dealership that told them it's my fault... I don't even know who to be mad at, but right now I'm quite pissed off.

I'm gonna go google some anger managment techniques.

Edit: The manager also mentioned that the dealership mechanic said that running it out of oil is pretty much the only reason a rotary engine would be locked up like that (from excessive heat). But again, there was no temperature warning, no trouble codes before it happened, etc. If they're still trying to fight honoring my warranty tomorrow, I'll see if I can get them to pull the oil pump and injectors to see if that was the cause. If so, it's still clearly not my fault and should still be covered by the warranty.

Edit 2: After talking to my dad about it and looking at my records a bit closer, I'm becoming more confident that there was some kind of oil pump or injector problem. After a bit of googling, it seems my car was using an abnormally small amount of oil (around 1 quart every 3-4,000 miles), suggesting that maybe an injector was clogged or something. That would tend to agree with what the dealership mechanic said about not enough oil causing excessive heat and breaking seals, and it definitely make sense that it could cause that, and that it's not something that I did wrong other than not expecting it to use more than it did.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Yeah, it's a crappy situation. I had one similar with Toyota in the past. Dealer pointed at warranty work (extended warranty company), warranty company pointed at dealer fault, corp wouldn't point at anyone and refused to get involved.

jasonrxeight

FYI, if it did run out of oil, the oil pressure would be gone before the engine seize up.

captain_pie

@jasonrxeight
I'm sure...

Anybody care to share some numbers about how much oil your cars are burning? I tried searching for it (here, and on google), but can't really find any consistent numbers, just people saying "wow this thing uses tons of oil!".
I'm feeling more and more confident there was some problem with the OMP or injectors, and it'd be kind of comforting to know that 1 quart every 3-4k miles is too little.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

It is. 1 quart every 1,000 to 1,500 miles is the "normal" range. You likely had the OMP nozzles clogged. People who seafoam through the OMP instead of just through the LIM service ports report having low consumption issue go away and it returns to the normal 1-1.5k range.

You aren't likely to get much traction that direction with Mazda though, because the OMP isn't covered under the warranty, and they won't want to agree that it can clog or fail anyway.

Bladecutter

Besides, if your dealer is trying to say that your car was low on oil, and failed that way, then that means your low oil light would have had to been on.

Have them test the low oil light to see if it works (as simple as them draining the oil pan, and turning the ignition to on, IIRC).

If you had been checking your oil level on a regular basis, you would know how much oil you have been using, and had kept the oil level topped up. I, roughly, check my oil level every 900 miles, and usually have to add a quart at that point, but mine's a 2011 car.

I also include my oil level check and top up in my owners log of the car, as a couple of members can tell you.

As they said, they can pull an oil sample from what's in the oil pan, and in the oil coolers, to look to see if they are roughly the same consistency. If they are close, then that proves you didn't run the engine dry, have it seize up, and then topped it off to make it look like you weren't a moron when you brought the car in with a fracked motor.

They are just covering their bases.
Chances are they probably asked you some questions, and didn't like your answers to certain ones, which makes them think you probably weren't checking/changing the oil level enough during the time you owned the car.

BC.

captain_pie

I've got more news. This time, it's potentially good. I think the dealership is on my side now!
I don't know why I didn't think of this, but my dad went down to ask about it (he's a machine mechanic), someone mentioned the spark plugs which reminded him that he's got a bore scope, and the dealership did too. So, they pulled the plugs and stuck the camera in and took a look around. Seems they found that the front rotor was the one that went and the rear rotor looked just fine (front had scratches and gouges all over it, rear had an even layer of carbon). While I was arguing with them to convince them I did not run it out of oil, the mechanic was insisting that when it does get run out of oil, it's always the rear rotor that goes first. So, the fact that the rear rotor is fine and the front one is the problem, that seems to be pretty good supporting evidence for what I've been telling them all along. The manager said he's going to be talking with Mazda about this, possibly sending them pictures and whatnot, and that he'll probably be calling me tomorrow.

I think I know what happened that caused the whole idea of me running it out of oil... when I brought it in and said the engine was locked up, he mentioned that he's only heard of this happening when it's been run low on oil, and the rear rotor doesn't get proper lubrication and is pretty much always the one to go. So, he probably thought that that's exactly what happened and only told Mazda what they would need to hear to have reason to agree with him, without checking to see if it actually was the rear rotor or testing the oil to prove that it was not added after the fact. Because of that, they decided that it was most likely that it was run low on oil and since the technician didn't provide them with any evidence otherwise that's probably what happened and refused to warranty the engine unless I could absolutely prove them wrong. Now that they've seen that this engine did not fail in "the usual way" like they initially thought, they will have better reason to believe me and warranty the engine.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

From your description, one of the broken bits of the apex seal that failed is wedged against another apex seal acting like a "door stop", preventing it from turning.

There used to be occasional reports of engines getting carbon locked after a decarb, where a flake of carbon big enough would do the same thing, though I haven't heard of it for several years.

If they can rotate the engine backwards by hand, I'm betting they would be able to locate the seal bits with the borescope. The engine certainly has terminal damage, but if they can get the larger bits out, they would be able to crank it at that point, and actually get a normal compression test done.


Seizing from running out of oil is not a seal problem, and would seize at one of the central e-shaft bearings.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

^ for sure......rotary engines don't have seal failure from running out of oil

The only thing that lubricates the apex seals is the OMP......

Sounds like the mechanic is not too versed in rotary engines ( my way of being politically correct...read between the lines )

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I doubt he would read that to care one way or another. That thought does make me wonder how many dealer mechanics (of whatever brand) actually spend time on forums for the cars they service, learning about them. REALLY REALLY few is the obvious answer, but the question remains in my head anyway.

Bladecutter

I doubt that a service manager or a dealer mechanic is going to look up a forum to find the answer for a problem with a motor instead of trusting their Manufacturer Supplied databases and troubleshooting tools, or the knowledge and experience of their peers in the shop.

Its a rare breed that looks outside of those tools to find more information.

That, and they're usually way too busy getting cars in and out of the shop as quickly and profitably as possible, just to state the obvious.

BC.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Agreed.

captain_pie

@RIWWP
He said he put a 3 foot bar on it and tried to move it by hand and could only get it to move like 1/8 of an inch in either direction, so it's jammed pretty good.

@dannobre
His explanation for a lack of oil seizing it is that when there's no oil on the seal the friction makes it heat up so much that it becomes brittle and cracks and breaks apart.


I didn't get any phone call today, so I went in and ask how it was going. The manager and the mechanic I talked to weren't there but the service manager that didn't seem to give a crap before told me they'd probably know something on Monday. He said they were pullin' for me... I don't know if that's true or not but at least he was trying to look like he cared this time.

911SC

OK, am I missing something here? I believe I read all the posts. They say you ran out of oil, you were right across the street and they towed it in. All you have to do is check the dip stick, no? What's so complicated about that?

captain_pie

@911SC
They thought the oil looked "too clean" (even though it only had ~1,200 miles on it), as if I had run it out of oil, checked it after the engine went then poured some more in to hide it or something. I told 'em to take an oil sample from one of the coolers to prove it's not freshly added, but they wanted to save that as a last resort for some reason.

Joe-the_tattoo_artist

My oil always "looks clean".