tallguylehigh

Hmm, I do not think you are the primary market. I think Mazda's primary market is the single 20-something that wants a sporty car, but also wants the ability to take friends with him. The fact that the 4 doors on the RX-8 makes it dodge a huge bullet with insurance companies is an added bonus. If you do a search, there have been previous posts, two come to mind, about the age group and status of buyers of the RX-8. For both situations, the 20-something single person won.

Also, the BMW 325i, A4 1.8t and WRX cover a rather wide range pricewise. Personally I think the RX-8 will fill in the gap between them, starting at 26K. Also, pertaining to the WRX, a new front end should be on our shores in the spring :D . It is the RX-8's closest competition for me.

Hercules

I can't compare an AWD car to a RWD car.. they are different driving experiences

revhappy

I don't think the car's target market will be 20 something singles. That target market would be covered by the sport coupes (i.e celica, rsx, eclipse, etc). This group is after "fun to drive", radical styling AND affordiabilty. Thus, they can live with some impracticality...ala..cramped rear seats. Think about it, if you are in your 20s, would you rather take your three friends to the club in one of these or your mom's buick?

Now as you go up the age spectrum..say to serious couples...going to get married/have young kids soon...they are going to look for more class, comfort, upscale...and image (this is america after all..well it is for a lot of us here!). Thus, they are going to go out with another couple and don't want them looking like pretzels in the back...AND they can afford to buy the sports sedan that will accomplish that. The same thing will go for fitting a baby seat back there. Like it or not, badge appeal is important to a lot in this group as well.

Then you have those oddballs...say in the late 20/30's that view marriage as Al Bundy retrospectively did. These are the ones that can pay more and want more performance than a sports coupe can offer, but don't want nor need the comforts/compromises of the sports sedans. These are your sports car buyers. Now, not all of them can live with the zero practicality of a true sports car, so they want something with a bit (but not too much) of a compromise. I am 28 and fall into this category, but know many in the two previous ones.

In my view (from what I have seen so far), the RX8 is mostly going after the serious/young married couples (with hopes of pulling some from the other 2 groups). The price will probobly be a bit too much for many in the first group i described (early- mid 20s and single) and they may possibly be put off by the "odd" look (I'll have to see it in person to determine if thats true) for the car to target this market. The third group (singles holdouts) would probobly think it makes too many compromises for them to be the target market.

I think the success of this car will be dependent on its ability to draw its primary market (i.e. serious/married couples). It will have to be practical enough and not be too "odd" looking or "weird." It will also have to be offerred at a discount vs. the competition since most have badge appeal (i.e. bmx. lexus, infiniti, etc). In addition, it will probobly have to draw a decent amount from the other two segments (and any others that it may indirectly target) to be successful. Thus, I beleive their is a fine line between mega success and major failure for this car.

tallguylehigh

Revhappy-

What exactly is your basis for the RX-8 being for young couples possibly with kids? For my basis I used Mazda's marketing goal, and that is to appeal to a younger (20 something) audience. And, like I said, there were a couple of polls that show that these are the groups that are in the majority in wanting the RX-8. I am sure the young couple with or without kids will want the RX-8, but in both polls, the demographic that I explained, that Mazda wants to buy the car were the majority.

As for the Mom's Buick, I don't know about you, but I don't have many 20-something friends still living at home, not to mention wanting to drive a Buick. I am a recent college graduate that has landed a lucrative job and want a car to reflect that. The comment about Mom's Buick almost borders on offensive, as some of my peers will attest to.

I am not flaming, just merely defending. I would like to see the evidence that you use to make the claim that married couples are in the majority in wanting the car, and that single 20-somethings are not. If anything, it hopes to bring your segment into the RX-8, not to mention that the RX-8's rotary is being aimed at young enthusiasts because of their semi-impartiality towards the rotary.

All I ask if for evidence to your claim, I thought mine was clear.

Zio

Not to mention usually people wont want this car if you have a family. But I suppose if you want a sports car or sports sedan and dont want the WRX or new Mitsu Lancer Evo VIII then this would be a good car. Theres also the Mazda6. They both have one extra seat and probably more room in the back. Plus they may have higher safety ratings that this car and many people with families prefer safer cars to faster cars.

revhappy

Tallguylehigh,

I thought Mazda's marketing goal was to produce the most fun to drive cars in all the classes it competed in? I think to target one age group for all its products would be a mistake.

Anyhow, my logic was as follows. Starting at the lower end, you have sport compact cars (i.e MP3 Protege, Focus SVT, etc.)...what is the age group that buys these? I would say college - couple of years out of college (lets say about 18 - 24). These cars are around or a bit under $20 K.

Then you got your sports coupe/hatchbacks (i.e. celicas, RSX, eclipse, etc) that are a bit more expensive. I would think this age group would be about 20 - 28. When the RSX came out, honda/acura was repeatedly quoted as they were looking for a slightly older/unscale crowd from the integra...specifically the 27 year old male in corporate america. Look at the very successful (though I hate the car) eclipse....the commericals all show 20 something hip singles going to the club. Both the RSX and Eclipse are around 23- 24K.

If you figure the RX8 is gonna be around $30 K (with options), then you are looking at a different target market based on price alone.

Now in terms of practicality, I assume you are around 22 as a new college grad and single. You would probobly not place as much value on rear passenger comfort as say...the 28 year old guy...with a serious girlfriend who routinely take couples out on saturday night. Same thing would go for having enough rear seat room for a baby seat! In your scenario (since you also live in North Jersey), you may need just enough room to squeeze three friends to go to Hoboken on a saturday night. Since you are going to Hoboken, you are probobly looking to meet (or bring some with you) some ladies...then you may likely place more value on the car's looks..than the married couple. Thus, you may very well likely prefer coming in with that more hip sports coupe than say a new camry (BTW..I wasn't insinuating that you or your friends were mooching off your parents..I was making an exagerrated comparison between image and practicality).

My point is that this car's PRIMARY market is the 30-40K sports sedan crowd..who in my opinion are mostly older singles (many of which are in serious relationships) and young married couples with and without kids. That is based on the price (mazda's price will have to be lower to be competitive with the badge value of these cars) AND the practicality built in (which costs $ in R&D and in production costs). I do beleive that this car will also need to get a certain amount from other markets to be successfull.

Certiainly, some younger people will have more $ and be able to afford something better. Some may just want a higher end car more than the average person and would be more willing to pay more. So, yes, these are huge generalizations and overly simplistic, but I think it gets the main point across.

revhappy

What was the source of your polls? Was it from the forum? If so, those are unscientific...as your population is going to be skewed towards those on the board AND very enthusuastic about sports cars/rotaries. A random selection of the population at large (perhaps a phone survey with a sufficient sample size and random selection) would be a better source of the target market.

tallguylehigh

Revhappy-

I do not doubt your logic. All I am asking for is the evidence that you have that allows you to make this conclusion so adamantly. You say that "My point is that this car's PRIMARY market is the 30-40K sports sedan crowd." What evidence do you have to make that point?

I understand and respect your opinion, but all I want to know is where you got your information from. I have a marketing statement from Mazda as to the target audience and goal of the RX-8, later confirmed by Road and Track, and to a lesser degree (price, power, etc.) Mazda USA's management at Sevenstock. This does not even take into account the polls taken on this site, which, although unscientific, do provide if nothing other than a modicum of information about the RX-8 buyer.

You make some interesting points, I would just like to know if there are other sources of information that led you to this conclusion, or if this is simply your own personal opinion and logic.

No hard feelings though

revhappy

Tallguylehigh,

No hard feelings taken! What did these statements from Mazda say exactly? The R&T article states the folowing:

"Although prices have not yet been announced, it's no secret that Mazda is aiming at the 20- or 30-something customer who needs the flexibility of 4-passenger seating, but isn't necessarily ready to sacrifice his soul to a sport-utility or minivan. Therefore, Mazda admits it will keep the price of the RX-8 as "competitive as possible." I played a sneaky game of process of elimination with different members of the Mazda team and came up with this figure: $26,000. A fully-equipped, top-of-the-line model, with a 4- or 5-speed automatic could come below or at the $30,000 mark."

To me that sounds alot like the late 20s/30s guy in a serious relationship or married with one or two young kids. A single young guy in his 20s would not have that worry (though some may like suvs for other reasons, but would never consider this car anyway). In addition a near $30K price tag may be tough for a lot of early 20s guys with student loans, etc.

For as long as I can remember, noone (car mags included) could put this car into any existing class. There has been much debate as to what this car is, who its customers would be and what cars it should be competing against?

Thus, until I see something from Mazda saying, "Our target audience for the RX8 is X", I'm left to logically deduce it myself because the car doesn't neatly fit into an existing class. Based on price, performance and utility...the closest competitors imho have been the 30-40K sports sedans.. I think a few others have said this as well. Thus, those customers would be its largest or primary market. However, given the high amount of r&d $, the heavy competition in this segment and the fact its not a true sports sedan, I would expect it needs to grab some customers from other segments as well. Thus imho, the car's success is dependent on hitting just the right spot where all those customer segments I described (possibly others too) could be happy with it.

Believe me, I want this car to 100% directed at single 20s guys (me!!), but I just don't think thats the case. Price is not that much of a limiting factor (but would have been a few years ago) for me, but I imagine it would be for some of the younger guys. However, I think we may be happy...if its still delivers most of what we want. Time will tell...I am hopeful!

xkpbreaker

I'm 19 and Im planning on buying this car!
:D

droidekaus

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! "out corner a GTR." That's priceless. Have you even seen what a R34 will do to other cars like the E46 M3, 350Z, S2000, Boxster S on the track? MURDER.

AWD, all-wheel steering. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Gideon

I agree with most that has been said on this thread. But I think that we are all missing something here. I understand the enthusiasm of a new car that no one has driven and the fun that goes with speculating about what it will and will not be and for whom and who's pocketbook. I also understand the urge to request that Mazda put a few more "ponies" under the hood or tweak and improve torque to maximum capability. But this is all a microscoping peek into the car which is tweedling over ounces and tenths of seconds. Not that there's anything wrong with that =Þ. But take me for instance,...

I'm 21, and about to graduate college in the spring. I'll be 22 then, but not important. I won't have a huge amount of money, but I live responsibly enough that I could swing a low $30s price tag if I really wanted to. So I could afford the car. But this thread has been concerned with why I would want it. I want it because it's so cool. And I don't mean that in the, "I'll bet chicks will be crawling through the windows to get to me" kind of cool either. It's a sharp car with a great body, neat design and ergonomics, powerful rotary engine and sweet color options. It'll look great in my driveway or when I decide to save up for valet parking. But wait, lo and behold, I can put two extra friends in the back and something in the trunk. This is where this thread seems to be hung up. There is no reason that my next logical thought would be, "Well, I guess I won't get that sweet looking Mazda with a great engine that's probably a blast to drive cause, you know what, I just really don't want the practicality of a four-seater with a trunk. It just really hurts my image". If the RX-8 is what it claims to be, the extra seats won't stop me from getting it. The trunk won't stop me getting it. And it being just a bit practical won't stop me from getting it. A sports car doesn't have to be inconvenient to be smooth.

And furthermore (I know, can you believe how long this post is. And a first one at that!) I currently drive a '90 3rd-Gen Prelude. It is fun, it handles alright. And I can almost squash an entire person into the backseat. It also has a whopping 100 hp. Now I'm not saying that you should all be happy with 250 (or 240 or 244 or whatever) horses just because it's two and a half times as powerful as my little prelude. I'm just saying that I'm a young guy. I want a car that's cool. I don't want to limit my choice of friends to contortionists. So the RX-8 is all that I would want and more. Sure, more torque wouldn't hurt. Neither would an extra 500 horses. Or free gas. Or a batcave. But I still think the RX-8 is great and I just wanted to say that I am still very excited about this car, no matter what. I may buy it, I may not. But a 250hp rear-wheel drive rotary engine Mazda with suicide doors and cool colored leather seats really makes me giggle like a little girl. I hope I'm not the only one.

droidekaus

As a complete outsider and someone who has recently gone through everything that you are, waiting for the final specs of the RX-8, let me just say... SLOW DOWN! You are all getting worked up a little too early in the game. We did the same thing on the Z boards. THE EXACT SAME THING. Wait a little bit longer for hard numbers, then make a decision.

As far as the pricing goes, can I be frank? If anyone is wavering over a couple of grand pricing them out of the car, they really need to have a sanity check and realize that they probably can't afford the car. Hundreds of people ordered Zs only because they were "cool" or "neat" only to NOT take delivery once the car came in. You should have a range in mind that you want to pay, not what you can pay. Don't be stupid. The economy is still in the sh*tter and everyone needs to be smart about a car purchase right now. If you run into problems and can't afford the car, there's a VERY HIGH probability that there's a lot of other people in your situation that won't be able to take it off your hands.

tallguylehigh

Gideon-

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on graudation this spring. I graduated this past spring and the real world has been... interesting .

As for the post- perfect, I could not have described my reasons for wanting the RX-8 better myself. Plainly put, it is just a cool car.

Take it easy.

roachman

Gideon,

Great Post. I totally agree. I have a boxster with 217 hp and it is a BLAST to drive and I do have girls all over it :o)

The Boxster is my third car. I have a Land Rover Disco, my wife a Ford Explorer, and I have two girls. I am tried of having three cars and having that money in the drive way all because I want a sports car and be able to pick my kids up.

I am 33 and I feel that the RX-8 was designed by me for me!!

Can't wait to see the news and picture from the show in early Jan.

Roachman

xkpbreaker

BWAHAHAHAHA???

If u didn't know drifting on a AWD skyline is much harder then a RWD one...
not to mention....... boxter s, 350z, S2000 is crap anyway on a track

I've seen a race with 2 evo, 2 nsx (type-S, type-0), 2 Skylines (R33, R34 GTR Vspec 2), and a RX-7 RS on a race track...

1st place - RX-7!!!! (BEAT CARS 4X ITS VALUE)
2nd place- Skyline R34 GTR Vspec 2

If u still won't belive it then I'll leave dat up to u
not to mention cornering really depends on the driver....

revhappy

Gideon,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the insightful post. I completely agree with you in that if a car can be fun/cool AND practical then that's great. Unfortunately, in engineering, like it or not, there are compromises inherent in different design goals. The big question is did the design goal of practicaility compromise too much of the sports car goals (i.e fun/performance/looks)?

Thus, the fruits of this practicality goal are the stretched roof line, shortened/higher angle rear window, short butt and suicide doors. The compromise would be the "odd" look some have expressed and probobly some extra weight and bigger overall dimensions. It also resulted in a somewhat higher driving position.

Now, to some those compromises may not impact the car's coolness or fun factor. To others it may. That's what this whole debate is about.

I'll have to wait to see the car in person to see if I like the looks and wait for the final reviews and a personal test drive in regards to the fun factor. Thus, this is all speculation (albeit based on some facts) so we will just have to wait and see.

Perhaps I'm being overly critical, but to me a $30 K expenditure (notice I didn't say investment!) is most likely going to be one of the largest I make in my life. So, as I see it, I'm not spending that kind of $ for something I'm not happy with. Who knows...maybe some big wig at Mazda is reading this! But that's just my opinion and I recognize others will probobly differ.

Gideon

RevHappy,

I also agree with your post about concerns with compromise. Nobody wants a car that's trying to be everything to everybody. We all want the car we want, the dream car, the perfect car, the car without AudioPilot (ha!). But I think the process is reverse from what many people on these boards think it should be. Mazda did not put this board on the web so we could tell them what we wanted in a car, although that's not a bad prospect of this site being extant. This site exists because a whole bunch of us are excited about a car that they made before we put the letters R and X with the number 8. I think it's fine to talk about design issues and weight and power to weight ratio and all of the things that are great and make our moms say "Whatever" when we spout them out like a mantra, but I also want to retain the joy of just embracing the car and loving it, goofy little side doors and all.

droidekaus

Nice ebonics. Drifting IS NOT racing! An S2000 on R compounds will hand many a car it's *** on a track. Cornering depends on the tires, the car, the drive wheels (FF, FR, MR, RR), THEN the driver.

Again, drifting IS NOT RACING!!!

xkpbreaker

The real race wasn't a drfiting race.... either way rx-7 beat a R34 GTR in the end

xkpbreaker

all the cars dat i mentioned was either RWD or AWD in the race

Hercules

That's true drifting is NOT racing however..

RWD is the platform of choice for all drivers that drive professionally (aside from rally and some others)... Because the steering feedback is the best and properly driven, is better at cornering and exit speeds than AWD.

Look at it this way, an AWD car can take a hard turn and get good power off the exit.

In a RWD car you can make up lap time by getting the exit sharp and adjusting your turn with throttle, a luxury you can't get in AWD... it shaves tenths of a second away and that's what will win the race

droidekaus

Try telling that to Michael Galati who's won the SPEED GT Driver's title two years running in the Champion Audi S4.

Macabre

But, since we're comparing to the GT-R, it's a bit more complicated. The GT-R is a RWD car that happens to give some power to the front wheels when a variety of sensors (including lateral and longitudinal g-forces, boost pressure, throttle position, etc) decide it would deliver the best performance. You can absolutely drift or adjust your line with the throttle in a GT-R and still have the benefit of splitting your tractive force between 4 wheels on corner exit. The GT-R is quite possibly the best real world sports car ever made. Too bad it cost ~$80k in USD..

Hercules

Good point made there

On launch or low speeds the GT-R will give power to all four wheels instead of just the rears... at speed though, the car becomes fully RWD.