Damning with faint praise?
 

I'm first on the list at my dealership to take delivery of an RX-8... actually, I am the ONLY person on the list, as of last month. The owner said she has not had any othe inquiries, which is surprising. (It's a small family-owned dealership, but the service and prices are great.)

That said, I read some of the recent previews and first drives of the RX-8 in C&D, MT, etc. Unlike the RX-8 preview that was on the cover of R&T last year, these articles have dimmed my enthusiasm for the upcoming RX-8. Not one raved about the drive or the handling, price is up all the way to $32k, and performance is down... I think C&D showed estimated 0-60 in 6.3 seconds. If that's all the quicker the car is, I will be passing without even taking a test drive, especially for $32k. It should at least be comparable to the 350Z, and noticeably quicker than my auto G35 sedan. (BTW, I drove the 350Z a week ago and I've scratched it off my list. Not remarkable at all IMHO.) I'm a newspaper columnist myself (consumer electronics) and I can tell when a writer is whitewashing with plain words to "be nice" when they don't have anything especially positive to say. That is what I sensed as I read the previews.

I know the magazines drove preproduction vehicles, but still, what I read dimmed my enthusiasm. I am no longer psyched for the RX-8 and am afraid that other than the engine, the driving experience will be quite ordinary. It's now likely I will pass on my RX-8 and trade my Miata in on a higher performance roadster.
I'm not trolling- I'm one of you guys, and a former 1st gen RX-7 owner and Mazda loyalist. I just want to see if anyone else feels the way I do. I was expecting more, especially in acceleration, and at $32k base for a 6.3 second o-60 time... I just don't think that's going to work for me.

What are you thoughts, and has anyone else had feelings similar to mine after reading the articles?

I am in the exact same boat, the RX name sake is one of very quick, great handling cars, and if mazda can't keep that namesake alive I too will pass. I really enjoy the look and overall usefullness of the 4 doors but if the sport is not a part of the equation then I could just buy a damn 350z, or on the other side an altima, or 6.

I think though that we will be surprised one reason being that I took a 6 cylinder 6 out for a test flog. It was one of the most rigid cars I have ever been in. The speed for a 4 door sedan was great, and the handling was wonderful but I could not fully test that as the weather was not the greatest for it.

Please mazda make us believers again, hopefully the detroit show will give us the shot in the arm we need...

Thanks for the reply, Fritts. I do think sport will be part of the equation; I just have a sinking suspicion that the car's driving experience is not going to be exceptional. 0-60 in 6.3 surely isn't, and M&T of all publications thought the car lacked that sharp handling edge. They are usually the last to disparage anything.

<<shrug>> let's wait to see the final spec to pass judgement.

I completely agree with you on this. I also realize these were pre-production models (silver one was the real one right?), but I did get the sense they all were using "plain words" to ' "be nice" ' as well. My biggest fear has been (and really grew with these articles) that this car was trying to be too many things to too many different people.

Specifically, the obsession with rear passenger comfort has irked me. The focus on headroom for the rear passengers has left us with the streatched out look and short butt. The ease of entry and exit for the rear passengers has left us with the suicide doors, which I feel are a gimmick and a waste. The rear passenger leg room goal left us with a realatively long wheelbase and a driving position that seems a bit too high. An odd-looking sports car is not a good thing (though if its due to some performance related reason its more fathomable).

These articles didn't seem to exude excitement as I have seen about other new sporty/sports cars in recent years. When writers first wrote about some of these cars (i.e. S2000, WRX, Celica GTS, ITR, Mazdaspeed Protege, etc.) they raved about "razor - sharp" handling, "adrenaline rush", etc. With these articles, the authors seemed to convey..its a nice, comfortable car, with some excitement...that will be a nice fit for a young family (say the family with 2 young kids?).

If this car is going to be able to be called a "sports car that happens to sit four people", it going to have to be (as the phrase suggests) a sports car first and foremost. That means acceleration, handling, braking and a subjective feel right up there with the sports cars in its price range. Otherwise, its gonna seem like a compromise car and lose enthusuasts that want some practicality. Believe me people are going to look to jump all over this car as being a compromise/gimmick (just read the beginning to the Automobile article). I know some will say to me "wait for the RX7", but I think it will be a car with zero practicality (i.e. 2 seats and a trunk). My main gripe has been with the level/type of practicality designed into this car. A 2 door, 2X2 (or hatch w/ no back seat..ala..1st and 2nd generation RX7) would have been the design I MUCH preferred.

Like Fritts, I still hold alot of hope for the final production version. By all means, the 6 and the various proteges have been incredibly successful and are to their classes as I hope the RX8 will be to the ~ 30K sports car/sedan class. I do remember the pre-production mules of the 350Z had pretty poor reviews (I specifically remember Sport Compact Car's), but these reviews improved SIGNIFICANTLY when the production model was tested (though some of the improvement was due to more HP). So I do hold out a lot of hope. I eagerly anticipate the NAIS show in less than 2 weeks!

revhappy said:
Sadly, if the RX-8 is not successful, there may not be an RX-7 to wait for. Time will tell... but I for one would have liked to see an S2000 or 350Z competitor rather than this "pioneering" car. You know who the pioneers are... the ones with their arrows in their backs!

Time will tell as you say, but I think the RX-8 *is* competing with the 350Z and S2000. At least from my perspective it is. It might lose a few tenths in the quarter mile to those two, and perhaps won't be quite nearly as nimble as the S2k on an autocross course, but I betcha on a road course all three will be about equally as fast. The Honda and Nissan are strictly 2-seaters without much storage space, while the RX-8 is a full 4-seater with a decent size trunk (not to mention the unique rotary engine). In my eyes the RX-8 is going to be the best of the three. I don't think Mazda can afford to make the car a softie with no excitement.

Methinks the 6 should cater to those who are after more "sedan" than "sport", and the RX-8 should be for those who place more of an emphasis on sport and performance. I think Mazda knows this.

We know the C/D estimates are pretty conservative too. :) They're usually conservative to begin with, and did you see they estimated the weight at over 3,000lbs? We know the 8 will weigh less than that, and if it does come in right at 2,800lbs as some KG numbers have suggested, methinks a 0-60 under 6 seconds will be cake.

I'm still not buying this view that the RX7 (or other future rotary cars for that matter) are solely dependent on the success of the RX8. Mazda put a ton of R&D $ into this car....its a completely new design (chassis and powerplant). From an economic point of view, they are most likely going to have build several models off this platform to spread those R&D costs out. In addition, based on the power and torque curves and some of the fuel economy emissions figures thrown around, this is a VERY innovative engine. This is Mazda's VTEC/I-VTEC. However, if there are major reliability issues with the Renesis, then this could be disastorous for future rotary vehicles.

Believe me, if I thought the RX7 was solely dependent on the success of a "pioneering" car, I'd be bitching a helluva a lot more!

DonG35Miata,

I definitely know how u feel cuz I've felt the same way which I expressed about in my post "Performance of the Rx-8" in the media section.....

I too will wait for the final verdict of the "production" version of the Rx-8...

I'am thinking of alternatives such as a 3rd gen Rx-7 or a used S2000..

The well-roundedness of this car is uncomparable. It will surely be more sporty than the 6. The car looks great and the back end is MUCH mor refined than the Z (and look how that's selling!). The price Has to be less than 30k for the base inorder for the RX8 to be successfull. The fact that the "journalists" haven't used the words: adrenaline, razor-sharp, nitrously-fast is just fine by me. All the thought, planning and testing should produce a great car; we'll find out in a few months!

Right now there isn't an alternative for the RX-8 for me... the G35 Coupe perhaps, but otherwise nothing.

The BMW 330 is a great car but too much money, the G35 doesn't have four doors, nor does it have the build quality of the BMW or the Mazda6 (a good judge for the RX-8).

The RX-8 has everything I want in a package, and hopefully it will live up to what I want out of it. A 6 second to 60 (perhaps a bit less) car, RWD with good balance and SUPERB handling. I focus mainly on the handling so long as the power is adequate.

I've waited this long so I can wait longer if it's necessary.

I agree with the last two. I'm willing to trade in my what I consider a fairly new WRX and go through the whole new car financing gig to get myself a new RX-8, feeling that overall, this car will offer what I want. Great response and handling, a secure driving feel, and reasonably good acceleration.

There are caveats though: I'm counting on that ~$27,000 price tag, and I'll have to really feel good about the car after a test drive. I'm assuming these conditions will be met, but if not, I won't be able to justify buying any new car.

I didn't find many of the articles written as of yet helpful at all(Automobile is the only one that has me worried). So there is no way I could base any kind of opinion on the vehicle at all, as none of them really said anything (even the guy from Automobile, who seemed to hate it on principle). Most of them were stilted, as if they were just regurgitating facts and figures they were fed by Mazda. In addition, they were not testing the production car and were very limited in the time they were allowed to drive it, and, from the tone of most of them, limited in what they were allowed to say in the articles. I think they weren't saying anything nice not because they didn't *like* the car, but because there was nothing they *could* say based on the time and information they had. There was really a whole lot of nothing in most of them.

In order to make any kind of decision about this car, I want to see and drive it for myself- it's like the overworked cliche- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Maybe it should be something like "Perceived car performance is in the hands of the actual driver."

(On a side note- I have to say I am very happy Mazda is focusing on rear passenger comfort, however. It means (if I get one) I can carry more than myself and my husband around, and in a few years when they appear, I can toss the kid(s) in the back seat and I won't have to give up my "fun" car. There are plenty of sports cars for two people- but very few you can stuff a family in.)

The previews have really been mixed, the performance number predictions have varied widely. It's been repeatedly pointed out the the test cars are far from what the production version will be, and the magazines have been allowed only very brief test drives. In writing their articles, they really just don't have very much info to work with.

It's anyone's guess as to whether or not we'll be happy with the final result, so it's still too early to really draw a definite conclusion. It really could go either way, but my hopes are still high at this point.

Who knows.... with a car that has this much potential and a company like Mazda... anythings possible...
It could even end up faster then the Z and out corner a GTR

Yeah, I decided last week to hold off on the deposit and just leave my name on the waiting list at the dealership. I think I'll drive the car before I make my final decision, but I'm still VERY much in love with this machine and it's the only car out there that I truly have any passion for right now. The G35 coupe is sweet. I can appreciate the Z for what it is, but it's not my style. No offense to any owners but the WRX is flat out god-awful in my opinion in most categories other than the drive-train.

Besides all that, I love the versatility of being able to pile some friends in the back for a night out, or being able to take it down to an autocross track (the stadium parking lot here in San Diego) and revving it up. Also, my dad has a long history with Mazda and an extremely frugal mentality so it's the only car I could spend $30k on without getting an earfull from him about saving money ("You get rich by living benenath your means son, not by making millions of dollars a year").... Yeah, yeah, yeah.... :p

Amazing
 

When I mentioned the possibility of the RX8 being a let down. I was harassed and accused of being a troll. This is my first post since Thanksgiving. The reason why? The RX8 is not what I expected. Unless something drastic happens, the RX8 is close to being scratched off as a possible replacement for my 330i. What really scared me was the comparisons to the S2000, which I found to be a Torque-less, overrated, Buzz Bomb that would give anyone headaches if you drove it on the highway for more than 30 minutes. The Rotary may be smoother, but I’m not too comfortable having to redline the car to get some decent thrust out of the thing. I’ll wait for a real road test to make my final decision. But I doubt that the RX8 will perform as well as the G35 or a 330i.

My guess is that the RX8 will do 0-60 in the 6.8-7.2 seconds range, and the ¼ mile in 15.3 - 15.6s range @ 89mph -92 mph. The RX8 is not offering anything that the competition does not already have, except maybe suicide doors and a rotary engine. Will that be enough? We will see. One thing for sure is that the RX8 cannot claim “Class leading performance”.

The demographic here on the RX8Forum seems to be broken into 3 camps:

1) the handling type - "As long as it handles I don't care about acceleration".

2) the McGyver type - "let’s include a Tow-Hitch, Bike Rack and Station wagon version. Let’s turn the thing into a Swiss army knife".

3) Troll Type (me) - "Give the damn thing some Low end Torque, 330i, G35 type performance".

It seems that type 1 will get its wishes.
Type 2 should be looking into an SUV or a minivan.
Type 3 will not like the RX8. Without any good low end torque the RX8 will feel like any of the other average performing vehicles that are already out there. Nice handling is fun, but without any real force my fun meter will not come close to being pegged.

Spoonie, while I can understand your problems with the 8's torque and off-the-line accelleration, I think they are a bit unfounded.

As per your estimate of 6.8-7.2 seconds to 60, I have to laugh. My best guess is that it will be just shy of 6 seconds -- the 210 horsepower version might be in the 6.8-7.2 range. This puts it in good company.

As per accelleration, I think it will be quick, but no probably not as quick as a G35 or 350Z. I think where the RX-8 will shine is its handling characteristics. Mazda has been known to make very agile and nimble cars, that respond well to driver inputs and the suspension keeps tires in contact with the road. I've no doubt that the RX-8 will be a superb handler, as this is the make-it-or-break-it deal for Mazda in their rotary lineup.

It comes down to balance. The G35 has it, the 330 has it. Good power (accelleration), good handling, and a body and chassis that can handle all you want to put it in and abuse it that you can.

I think though, that with the estimates you're putting out yourself you sell the RX-8 short. I'm willing to bet that Mazda will release the 8 with a claimed 0-60 time of 6 seconds. People hand timing the car have already put it under 6 seconds, and with the proper equipement can prove that fact.

As per your comments about the "three types" of people that post here... The first is simply false. If the case was that we didn't want power we'd all be buying a Miata instead of the RX-8. The RX-8 brings us more power, stiffer chassis and better handling.

Some of us also need that rear seat. I do personally dread the station wagon creations, tow bars, etc... I don't think they have any room on a car like this. However their reasons are not completely unfounded; they want a real world sports car, that will allow them to take their bikes along with them (which is why the tow bar was suggested). I can understand the notion, but I also feel that it's a silly thing to do on this car.

As per the last, the trolls... They look exclusively for power. Now I don't know which category to dump you into. Your own estimates put the RX-8 at 6.8-7.2 seconds to 60 which is for the most part, laughable. Your 'performance' indicators seem to prove that you look moreso for power rather than handling and for that I can say, you are in small company. I was looking at a 330i for quite a while until I heard about the RX-8. I was convinced that the 330i would be my next car -- I had gone so far as to start pricing it out and figuring out my packages.

However the 8 offers everything the 330i will in a sleeker, cheaper package. The straight line times will be nearly identical if not faster on the 8. The handling on both cars will be superb, but the RX-8 having a signifigant weight advantage on the 330 gives it a good deal more agility and tossability. The RX-8 seats four as well as the 330i, though in the 330 you can squeeze a 5th person back there if you really wanted to. The trunk on the RX-8 should be just about the same. Both cars to the eye, look great.

So in the end, it comes down to whether the RX-8 will actually live up to the hype. I think that it will because as I've said, it's Mazda's last chance to introduce (successfully) a rotary powered sports car that gives as good or better performance as the cars in its class. If it's priced at 31k loaded like I hope, does the dash to 60 as fast I think it will, and handle like it should, then it's a no brainer -- the RX-8 will be hands down, the best car for the money, and even then some.

The choice is yours.

Re: Amazing
 

While I agree with you Spoonie that a lot of people on this board might have unrealistic expectations, the acceleration numbers you posted here will not be true. My car with 200hp and 2960lbs weight does 6.8-7.1 and 14.9-15.2. So the RX-8 with 250hp and ~2850 weight should produce numbers very close to the S2000, about 6.0-6.3 and 13.9-14.2 depending on the driver and gearing.

I have refrained so far from getting into these threads about RX-8 will be this or that.. for the simple reason nobody has tested a FINAL PRODUCTION version. Until that time it's all speculation and while it is fun to do that in anticipation, any heated arguments are moot and a waste of time. shrug... I've got better things to waste my time on. :) Let's wait and see..

And I second it. Until the final version is out for real test no one trully knows what to expect.

True, but if Mazda actually looks at this forum (as we all hope they do) then it can't hurt to mention the desire for more power.

I don't see why people argue over whether more power is right for the RX-8 or if handling is more important. It's not like the car won't handle as well if it has more low end torque.

the RX-8 does not need more power, the WRX does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds with less HP (227). It needs better acceleration, which calls for more torque.

And is about 500lbs heavier to.

Many of you have it all wrong
 

The RX-8 is more sports sedan than a sports car with 4 doors and 4 seats and that's perfectly fine with me. I have a sports car and I don't plan on replacing my RX-7 with a RX-8. What I do plan on doing is replacing my 626 ES V6 5spd with either a MazdaSpeed 6 or a RX-8 (will only consider the MazdaSpeed RX-8 if it comes with factory FI and >320 HP).

I think I'm a good example of the primary market for the RX-8. I'm young (30), married, middle/upper middle class, with a kid (maybe two in a couple of years). I commute 60-80 miles a day which includes taking my dauther to and from daycare. I want 4 big doors and 4 real seats, but I also want my drive to work or anywhere else to be fun and invigorating.

My girl is young (8 months) and requires a car seat. Actaully, she will probably require a car seat for many more years. This is where the rear doors come into play and this is exactly why I would never consider a coupe or any two door like the G35 or S2000 are an option for my daily commuter, though they are both very nice cars in their own right.

I think the RX-8 will compete with the likes of 325i, A4 1.8T, and Subaru WRX in terms of size, performance and price. To be perfectly honest, on paper, the WRX is one of the best deals out there that would fit my needs, but I'm not too enamured with its looks and I'm very much a Mazdaphile.

Cheers

The WRX is only 3085lbs

Hmm, I do not think you are the primary market. I think Mazda's primary market is the single 20-something that wants a sporty car, but also wants the ability to take friends with him. The fact that the 4 doors on the RX-8 makes it dodge a huge bullet with insurance companies is an added bonus. If you do a search, there have been previous posts, two come to mind, about the age group and status of buyers of the RX-8. For both situations, the 20-something single person won.

Also, the BMW 325i, A4 1.8t and WRX cover a rather wide range pricewise. Personally I think the RX-8 will fill in the gap between them, starting at 26K. Also, pertaining to the WRX, a new front end should be on our shores in the spring :D . It is the RX-8's closest competition for me.

I can't compare an AWD car to a RWD car.. they are different driving experiences :)

I don't think the car's target market will be 20 something singles. That target market would be covered by the sport coupes (i.e celica, rsx, eclipse, etc). This group is after "fun to drive", radical styling AND affordiabilty. Thus, they can live with some impracticality...ala..cramped rear seats. Think about it, if you are in your 20s, would you rather take your three friends to the club in one of these or your mom's buick? :)

Now as you go up the age spectrum..say to serious couples...going to get married/have young kids soon...they are going to look for more class, comfort, upscale...and image (this is america after all..well it is for a lot of us here!). Thus, they are going to go out with another couple and don't want them looking like pretzels in the back...AND they can afford to buy the sports sedan that will accomplish that. The same thing will go for fitting a baby seat back there. Like it or not, badge appeal is important to a lot in this group as well.

Then you have those oddballs...say in the late 20/30's that view marriage as Al Bundy retrospectively did. These are the ones that can pay more and want more performance than a sports coupe can offer, but don't want nor need the comforts/compromises of the sports sedans. These are your sports car buyers. Now, not all of them can live with the zero practicality of a true sports car, so they want something with a bit (but not too much) of a compromise. I am 28 and fall into this category, but know many in the two previous ones.

In my view (from what I have seen so far), the RX8 is mostly going after the serious/young married couples (with hopes of pulling some from the other 2 groups). The price will probobly be a bit too much for many in the first group i described (early- mid 20s and single) and they may possibly be put off by the "odd" look (I'll have to see it in person to determine if thats true) for the car to target this market. The third group (singles holdouts) would probobly think it makes too many compromises for them to be the target market.

I think the success of this car will be dependent on its ability to draw its primary market (i.e. serious/married couples). It will have to be practical enough and not be too "odd" looking or "weird." It will also have to be offerred at a discount vs. the competition since most have badge appeal (i.e. bmx. lexus, infiniti, etc). In addition, it will probobly have to draw a decent amount from the other two segments (and any others that it may indirectly target) to be successful. Thus, I beleive their is a fine line between mega success and major failure for this car.

Revhappy-

What exactly is your basis for the RX-8 being for young couples possibly with kids? For my basis I used Mazda's marketing goal, and that is to appeal to a younger (20 something) audience. And, like I said, there were a couple of polls that show that these are the groups that are in the majority in wanting the RX-8. I am sure the young couple with or without kids will want the RX-8, but in both polls, the demographic that I explained, that Mazda wants to buy the car were the majority.

As for the Mom's Buick, I don't know about you, but I don't have many 20-something friends still living at home, not to mention wanting to drive a Buick. I am a recent college graduate that has landed a lucrative job and want a car to reflect that. The comment about Mom's Buick almost borders on offensive, as some of my peers will attest to.

I am not flaming, just merely defending. I would like to see the evidence that you use to make the claim that married couples are in the majority in wanting the car, and that single 20-somethings are not. If anything, it hopes to bring your segment into the RX-8, not to mention that the RX-8's rotary is being aimed at young enthusiasts because of their semi-impartiality towards the rotary.

All I ask if for evidence to your claim, I thought mine was clear. :confused:

Not to mention usually people wont want this car if you have a family. But I suppose if you want a sports car or sports sedan and dont want the WRX or new Mitsu Lancer Evo VIII then this would be a good car. Theres also the Mazda6. They both have one extra seat and probably more room in the back. Plus they may have higher safety ratings that this car and many people with families prefer safer cars to faster cars.

Tallguylehigh,

I thought Mazda's marketing goal was to produce the most fun to drive cars in all the classes it competed in? I think to target one age group for all its products would be a mistake.

Anyhow, my logic was as follows. Starting at the lower end, you have sport compact cars (i.e MP3 Protege, Focus SVT, etc.)...what is the age group that buys these? I would say college - couple of years out of college (lets say about 18 - 24). These cars are around or a bit under $20 K.

Then you got your sports coupe/hatchbacks (i.e. celicas, RSX, eclipse, etc) that are a bit more expensive. I would think this age group would be about 20 - 28. When the RSX came out, honda/acura was repeatedly quoted as they were looking for a slightly older/unscale crowd from the integra...specifically the 27 year old male in corporate america. Look at the very successful (though I hate the car) eclipse....the commericals all show 20 something hip singles going to the club. Both the RSX and Eclipse are around 23- 24K.

If you figure the RX8 is gonna be around $30 K (with options), then you are looking at a different target market based on price alone.

Now in terms of practicality, I assume you are around 22 as a new college grad and single. You would probobly not place as much value on rear passenger comfort as say...the 28 year old guy...with a serious girlfriend who routinely take couples out on saturday night. Same thing would go for having enough rear seat room for a baby seat! In your scenario (since you also live in North Jersey), you may need just enough room to squeeze three friends to go to Hoboken on a saturday night. Since you are going to Hoboken, you are probobly looking to meet (or bring some with you) some ladies...then you may likely place more value on the car's looks..than the married couple. Thus, you may very well likely prefer coming in with that more hip sports coupe than say a new camry (BTW..I wasn't insinuating that you or your friends were mooching off your parents..I was making an exagerrated comparison between image and practicality).

My point is that this car's PRIMARY market is the 30-40K sports sedan crowd..who in my opinion are mostly older singles (many of which are in serious relationships) and young married couples with and without kids. That is based on the price (mazda's price will have to be lower to be competitive with the badge value of these cars) AND the practicality built in (which costs $ in R&D and in production costs). I do beleive that this car will also need to get a certain amount from other markets to be successfull.

Certiainly, some younger people will have more $ and be able to afford something better. Some may just want a higher end car more than the average person and would be more willing to pay more. So, yes, these are huge generalizations and overly simplistic, but I think it gets the main point across.

:confused: :confused:

What was the source of your polls? Was it from the forum? If so, those are unscientific...as your population is going to be skewed towards those on the board AND very enthusuastic about sports cars/rotaries. A random selection of the population at large (perhaps a phone survey with a sufficient sample size and random selection) would be a better source of the target market.

Revhappy-

I do not doubt your logic. All I am asking for is the evidence that you have that allows you to make this conclusion so adamantly. You say that "My point is that this car's PRIMARY market is the 30-40K sports sedan crowd." What evidence do you have to make that point?

I understand and respect your opinion, but all I want to know is where you got your information from. I have a marketing statement from Mazda as to the target audience and goal of the RX-8, later confirmed by Road and Track, and to a lesser degree (price, power, etc.) Mazda USA's management at Sevenstock. This does not even take into account the polls taken on this site, which, although unscientific, do provide if nothing other than a modicum of information about the RX-8 buyer.

You make some interesting points, I would just like to know if there are other sources of information that led you to this conclusion, or if this is simply your own personal opinion and logic.

No hard feelings though :cool:

Tallguylehigh,

No hard feelings taken! What did these statements from Mazda say exactly? The R&T article states the folowing:

"Although prices have not yet been announced, it's no secret that Mazda is aiming at the 20- or 30-something customer who needs the flexibility of 4-passenger seating, but isn't necessarily ready to sacrifice his soul to a sport-utility or minivan. Therefore, Mazda admits it will keep the price of the RX-8 as "competitive as possible." I played a sneaky game of process of elimination with different members of the Mazda team and came up with this figure: $26,000. A fully-equipped, top-of-the-line model, with a 4- or 5-speed automatic could come below or at the $30,000 mark."

To me that sounds alot like the late 20s/30s guy in a serious relationship or married with one or two young kids. A single young guy in his 20s would not have that worry (though some may like suvs for other reasons, but would never consider this car anyway). In addition a near $30K price tag may be tough for a lot of early 20s guys with student loans, etc.

For as long as I can remember, noone (car mags included) could put this car into any existing class. There has been much debate as to what this car is, who its customers would be and what cars it should be competing against?

Thus, until I see something from Mazda saying, "Our target audience for the RX8 is X", I'm left to logically deduce it myself because the car doesn't neatly fit into an existing class. Based on price, performance and utility...the closest competitors imho have been the 30-40K sports sedans.. I think a few others have said this as well. Thus, those customers would be its largest or primary market. However, given the high amount of r&d $, the heavy competition in this segment and the fact its not a true sports sedan, I would expect it needs to grab some customers from other segments as well. Thus imho, the car's success is dependent on hitting just the right spot where all those customer segments I described (possibly others too) could be happy with it.

Believe me, I want this car to 100% directed at single 20s guys (me!!), but I just don't think thats the case. Price is not that much of a limiting factor (but would have been a few years ago) for me, but I imagine it would be for some of the younger guys. However, I think we may be happy...if its still delivers most of what we want. Time will tell...I am hopeful!

I'm 19 and Im planning on buying this car!
:D

BWAHAHAHAHA!!! "out corner a GTR." That's priceless. Have you even seen what a R34 will do to other cars like the E46 M3, 350Z, S2000, Boxster S on the track? MURDER.

AWD, all-wheel steering. NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

Relevency of practicality
 

I agree with most that has been said on this thread. But I think that we are all missing something here. I understand the enthusiasm of a new car that no one has driven and the fun that goes with speculating about what it will and will not be and for whom and who's pocketbook. I also understand the urge to request that Mazda put a few more "ponies" under the hood or tweak and improve torque to maximum capability. But this is all a microscoping peek into the car which is tweedling over ounces and tenths of seconds. Not that there's anything wrong with that =Þ. But take me for instance,...

I'm 21, and about to graduate college in the spring. I'll be 22 then, but not important. I won't have a huge amount of money, but I live responsibly enough that I could swing a low $30s price tag if I really wanted to. So I could afford the car. But this thread has been concerned with why I would want it. I want it because it's so cool. And I don't mean that in the, "I'll bet chicks will be crawling through the windows to get to me" kind of cool either. It's a sharp car with a great body, neat design and ergonomics, powerful rotary engine and sweet color options. It'll look great in my driveway or when I decide to save up for valet parking. But wait, lo and behold, I can put two extra friends in the back and something in the trunk. This is where this thread seems to be hung up. There is no reason that my next logical thought would be, "Well, I guess I won't get that sweet looking Mazda with a great engine that's probably a blast to drive cause, you know what, I just really don't want the practicality of a four-seater with a trunk. It just really hurts my image". If the RX-8 is what it claims to be, the extra seats won't stop me from getting it. The trunk won't stop me getting it. And it being just a bit practical won't stop me from getting it. A sports car doesn't have to be inconvenient to be smooth.

And furthermore (I know, can you believe how long this post is. And a first one at that!) I currently drive a '90 3rd-Gen Prelude. It is fun, it handles alright. And I can almost squash an entire person into the backseat. It also has a whopping 100 hp. Now I'm not saying that you should all be happy with 250 (or 240 or 244 or whatever) horses just because it's two and a half times as powerful as my little prelude. I'm just saying that I'm a young guy. I want a car that's cool. I don't want to limit my choice of friends to contortionists. So the RX-8 is all that I would want and more. Sure, more torque wouldn't hurt. Neither would an extra 500 horses. Or free gas. Or a batcave. But I still think the RX-8 is great and I just wanted to say that I am still very excited about this car, no matter what. I may buy it, I may not. But a 250hp rear-wheel drive rotary engine Mazda with suicide doors and cool colored leather seats really makes me giggle like a little girl. I hope I'm not the only one.

As a complete outsider and someone who has recently gone through everything that you are, waiting for the final specs of the RX-8, let me just say... SLOW DOWN! You are all getting worked up a little too early in the game. We did the same thing on the Z boards. THE EXACT SAME THING. Wait a little bit longer for hard numbers, then make a decision.

As far as the pricing goes, can I be frank? If anyone is wavering over a couple of grand pricing them out of the car, they really need to have a sanity check and realize that they probably can't afford the car. Hundreds of people ordered Zs only because they were "cool" or "neat" only to NOT take delivery once the car came in. You should have a range in mind that you want to pay, not what you can pay. Don't be stupid. The economy is still in the sh*tter and everyone needs to be smart about a car purchase right now. If you run into problems and can't afford the car, there's a VERY HIGH probability that there's a lot of other people in your situation that won't be able to take it off your hands.

Welcome
 

Gideon-

Welcome to the forum, and congratulations on graudation this spring. I graduated this past spring and the real world has been... interesting :cool: .

As for the post- perfect, I could not have described my reasons for wanting the RX-8 better myself. Plainly put, it is just a cool car.

Take it easy.

Gideon,

Great Post. I totally agree. I have a boxster with 217 hp and it is a BLAST to drive and I do have girls all over it :o)

The Boxster is my third car. I have a Land Rover Disco, my wife a Ford Explorer, and I have two girls. I am tried of having three cars and having that money in the drive way all because I want a sports car and be able to pick my kids up.

I am 33 and I feel that the RX-8 was designed by me for me!!

Can't wait to see the news and picture from the show in early Jan.

Roachman

BWAHAHAHAHA???

If u didn't know drifting on a AWD skyline is much harder then a RWD one...
not to mention....... boxter s, 350z, S2000 is crap anyway on a track

I've seen a race with 2 evo, 2 nsx (type-S, type-0), 2 Skylines (R33, R34 GTR Vspec 2), and a RX-7 RS on a race track...

1st place - RX-7!!!! (BEAT CARS 4X ITS VALUE)
2nd place- Skyline R34 GTR Vspec 2

If u still won't belive it then I'll leave dat up to u
not to mention cornering really depends on the driver....

Gideon,

Welcome to the forum and thanks for the insightful post. I completely agree with you in that if a car can be fun/cool AND practical then that's great. Unfortunately, in engineering, like it or not, there are compromises inherent in different design goals. The big question is did the design goal of practicaility compromise too much of the sports car goals (i.e fun/performance/looks)?

Thus, the fruits of this practicality goal are the stretched roof line, shortened/higher angle rear window, short butt and suicide doors. The compromise would be the "odd" look some have expressed and probobly some extra weight and bigger overall dimensions. It also resulted in a somewhat higher driving position.

Now, to some those compromises may not impact the car's coolness or fun factor. To others it may. That's what this whole debate is about.

I'll have to wait to see the car in person to see if I like the looks and wait for the final reviews and a personal test drive in regards to the fun factor. Thus, this is all speculation (albeit based on some facts) so we will just have to wait and see.

Perhaps I'm being overly critical, but to me a $30 K expenditure (notice I didn't say investment!) is most likely going to be one of the largest I make in my life. So, as I see it, I'm not spending that kind of $ for something I'm not happy with. Who knows...maybe some big wig at Mazda is reading this! But that's just my opinion and I recognize others will probobly differ.

Itty bitties
 

RevHappy,

I also agree with your post about concerns with compromise. Nobody wants a car that's trying to be everything to everybody. We all want the car we want, the dream car, the perfect car, the car without AudioPilot (ha!). But I think the process is reverse from what many people on these boards think it should be. Mazda did not put this board on the web so we could tell them what we wanted in a car, although that's not a bad prospect of this site being extant. This site exists because a whole bunch of us are excited about a car that they made before we put the letters R and X with the number 8. I think it's fine to talk about design issues and weight and power to weight ratio and all of the things that are great and make our moms say "Whatever" when we spout them out like a mantra, but I also want to retain the joy of just embracing the car and loving it, goofy little side doors and all.

Nice ebonics. Drifting IS NOT racing! An S2000 on R compounds will hand many a car it's ass on a track. Cornering depends on the tires, the car, the drive wheels (FF, FR, MR, RR), THEN the driver.

Again, drifting IS NOT RACING!!!

The real race wasn't a drfiting race.... either way rx-7 beat a R34 GTR in the end

all the cars dat i mentioned was either RWD or AWD in the race

That's true drifting is NOT racing however..

RWD is the platform of choice for all drivers that drive professionally (aside from rally and some others)... Because the steering feedback is the best and properly driven, is better at cornering and exit speeds than AWD.

Look at it this way, an AWD car can take a hard turn and get good power off the exit.

In a RWD car you can make up lap time by getting the exit sharp and adjusting your turn with throttle, a luxury you can't get in AWD... it shaves tenths of a second away and that's what will win the race :)

Try telling that to Michael Galati who's won the SPEED GT Driver's title two years running in the Champion Audi S4. ;)

But, since we're comparing to the GT-R, it's a bit more complicated. The GT-R is a RWD car that happens to give some power to the front wheels when a variety of sensors (including lateral and longitudinal g-forces, boost pressure, throttle position, etc) decide it would deliver the best performance. You can absolutely drift or adjust your line with the throttle in a GT-R and still have the benefit of splitting your tractive force between 4 wheels on corner exit. The GT-R is quite possibly the best real world sports car ever made. Too bad it cost ~$80k in USD.. :mad:

Good point made there :)

On launch or low speeds the GT-R will give power to all four wheels instead of just the rears... at speed though, the car becomes fully RWD.