DonG35Miata

I'm first on the list at my dealership to take delivery of an RX-8... actually, I am the ONLY person on the list, as of last month. The owner said she has not had any othe inquiries, which is surprising. (It's a small family-owned dealership, but the service and prices are great.)

That said, I read some of the recent previews and first drives of the RX-8 in C&D, MT, etc. Unlike the RX-8 preview that was on the cover of R&T last year, these articles have dimmed my enthusiasm for the upcoming RX-8. Not one raved about the drive or the handling, price is up all the way to $32k, and performance is down... I think C&D showed estimated 0-60 in 6.3 seconds. If that's all the quicker the car is, I will be passing without even taking a test drive, especially for $32k. It should at least be comparable to the 350Z, and noticeably quicker than my auto G35 sedan. (BTW, I drove the 350Z a week ago and I've scratched it off my list. Not remarkable at all IMHO.) I'm a newspaper columnist myself (consumer electronics) and I can tell when a writer is whitewashing with plain words to "be nice" when they don't have anything especially positive to say. That is what I sensed as I read the previews.

I know the magazines drove preproduction vehicles, but still, what I read dimmed my enthusiasm. I am no longer psyched for the RX-8 and am afraid that other than the engine, the driving experience will be quite ordinary. It's now likely I will pass on my RX-8 and trade my Miata in on a higher performance roadster.
I'm not trolling- I'm one of you guys, and a former 1st gen RX-7 owner and Mazda loyalist. I just want to see if anyone else feels the way I do. I was expecting more, especially in acceleration, and at $32k base for a 6.3 second o-60 time... I just don't think that's going to work for me.

What are you thoughts, and has anyone else had feelings similar to mine after reading the articles?

fritts

I am in the exact same boat, the RX name sake is one of very quick, great handling cars, and if mazda can't keep that namesake alive I too will pass. I really enjoy the look and overall usefullness of the 4 doors but if the sport is not a part of the equation then I could just buy a damn 350z, or on the other side an altima, or 6.

I think though that we will be surprised one reason being that I took a 6 cylinder 6 out for a test flog. It was one of the most rigid cars I have ever been in. The speed for a 4 door sedan was great, and the handling was wonderful but I could not fully test that as the weather was not the greatest for it.

Please mazda make us believers again, hopefully the detroit show will give us the shot in the arm we need...

DonG35Miata

Thanks for the reply, Fritts. I do think sport will be part of the equation; I just have a sinking suspicion that the car's driving experience is not going to be exceptional. 0-60 in 6.3 surely isn't, and M&T of all publications thought the car lacked that sharp handling edge. They are usually the last to disparage anything.

wakeech

<<shrug>> let's wait to see the final spec to pass judgement.

revhappy

I completely agree with you on this. I also realize these were pre-production models (silver one was the real one right?), but I did get the sense they all were using "plain words" to ' "be nice" ' as well. My biggest fear has been (and really grew with these articles) that this car was trying to be too many things to too many different people.

Specifically, the obsession with rear passenger comfort has irked me. The focus on headroom for the rear passengers has left us with the streatched out look and short butt. The ease of entry and exit for the rear passengers has left us with the suicide doors, which I feel are a gimmick and a waste. The rear passenger leg room goal left us with a realatively long wheelbase and a driving position that seems a bit too high. An odd-looking sports car is not a good thing (though if its due to some performance related reason its more fathomable).

These articles didn't seem to exude excitement as I have seen about other new sporty/sports cars in recent years. When writers first wrote about some of these cars (i.e. S2000, WRX, Celica GTS, ITR, Mazdaspeed Protege, etc.) they raved about "razor - sharp" handling, "adrenaline rush", etc. With these articles, the authors seemed to convey..its a nice, comfortable car, with some excitement...that will be a nice fit for a young family (say the family with 2 young kids?).

If this car is going to be able to be called a "sports car that happens to sit four people", it going to have to be (as the phrase suggests) a sports car first and foremost. That means acceleration, handling, braking and a subjective feel right up there with the sports cars in its price range. Otherwise, its gonna seem like a compromise car and lose enthusuasts that want some practicality. Believe me people are going to look to jump all over this car as being a compromise/gimmick (just read the beginning to the Automobile article). I know some will say to me "wait for the RX7", but I think it will be a car with zero practicality (i.e. 2 seats and a trunk). My main gripe has been with the level/type of practicality designed into this car. A 2 door, 2X2 (or hatch w/ no back seat..ala..1st and 2nd generation RX7) would have been the design I MUCH preferred.

Like Fritts, I still hold alot of hope for the final production version. By all means, the 6 and the various proteges have been incredibly successful and are to their classes as I hope the RX8 will be to the ~ 30K sports car/sedan class. I do remember the pre-production mules of the 350Z had pretty poor reviews (I specifically remember Sport Compact Car's), but these reviews improved SIGNIFICANTLY when the production model was tested (though some of the improvement was due to more HP). So I do hold out a lot of hope. I eagerly anticipate the NAIS show in less than 2 weeks!

DonG35Miata

revhappy said:
Sadly, if the RX-8 is not successful, there may not be an RX-7 to wait for. Time will tell... but I for one would have liked to see an S2000 or 350Z competitor rather than this "pioneering" car. You know who the pioneers are... the ones with their arrows in their backs!

BryanH

Time will tell as you say, but I think the RX-8 *is* competing with the 350Z and S2000. At least from my perspective it is. It might lose a few tenths in the quarter mile to those two, and perhaps won't be quite nearly as nimble as the S2k on an autocross course, but I betcha on a road course all three will be about equally as fast. The Honda and Nissan are strictly 2-seaters without much storage space, while the RX-8 is a full 4-seater with a decent size trunk (not to mention the unique rotary engine). In my eyes the RX-8 is going to be the best of the three. I don't think Mazda can afford to make the car a softie with no excitement.

Methinks the 6 should cater to those who are after more "sedan" than "sport", and the RX-8 should be for those who place more of an emphasis on sport and performance. I think Mazda knows this.

We know the C/D estimates are pretty conservative too. They're usually conservative to begin with, and did you see they estimated the weight at over 3,000lbs? We know the 8 will weigh less than that, and if it does come in right at 2,800lbs as some KG numbers have suggested, methinks a 0-60 under 6 seconds will be cake.

revhappy

I'm still not buying this view that the RX7 (or other future rotary cars for that matter) are solely dependent on the success of the RX8. Mazda put a ton of R&D $ into this car....its a completely new design (chassis and powerplant). From an economic point of view, they are most likely going to have build several models off this platform to spread those R&D costs out. In addition, based on the power and torque curves and some of the fuel economy emissions figures thrown around, this is a VERY innovative engine. This is Mazda's VTEC/I-VTEC. However, if there are major reliability issues with the Renesis, then this could be disastorous for future rotary vehicles.

Believe me, if I thought the RX7 was solely dependent on the success of a "pioneering" car, I'd be bitching a helluva a lot more!

xkpbreaker

DonG35Miata,

I definitely know how u feel cuz I've felt the same way which I expressed about in my post "Performance of the Rx-8" in the media section.....

I too will wait for the final verdict of the "production" version of the Rx-8...

I'am thinking of alternatives such as a 3rd gen Rx-7 or a used S2000..

HitUpOlas

The well-roundedness of this car is uncomparable. It will surely be more sporty than the 6. The car looks great and the back end is MUCH mor refined than the Z (and look how that's selling!). The price Has to be less than 30k for the base inorder for the RX8 to be successfull. The fact that the "journalists" haven't used the words: adrenaline, razor-sharp, nitrously-fast is just fine by me. All the thought, planning and testing should produce a great car; we'll find out in a few months!

Hercules

Right now there isn't an alternative for the RX-8 for me... the G35 Coupe perhaps, but otherwise nothing.

The BMW 330 is a great car but too much money, the G35 doesn't have four doors, nor does it have the build quality of the BMW or the Mazda6 (a good judge for the RX-8).

The RX-8 has everything I want in a package, and hopefully it will live up to what I want out of it. A 6 second to 60 (perhaps a bit less) car, RWD with good balance and SUPERB handling. I focus mainly on the handling so long as the power is adequate.

I've waited this long so I can wait longer if it's necessary.

KKMmaniac

I agree with the last two. I'm willing to trade in my what I consider a fairly new WRX and go through the whole new car financing gig to get myself a new RX-8, feeling that overall, this car will offer what I want. Great response and handling, a secure driving feel, and reasonably good acceleration.

There are caveats though: I'm counting on that ~$27,000 price tag, and I'll have to really feel good about the car after a test drive. I'm assuming these conditions will be met, but if not, I won't be able to justify buying any new car.

Elara

I didn't find many of the articles written as of yet helpful at all(Automobile is the only one that has me worried). So there is no way I could base any kind of opinion on the vehicle at all, as none of them really said anything (even the guy from Automobile, who seemed to hate it on principle). Most of them were stilted, as if they were just regurgitating facts and figures they were fed by Mazda. In addition, they were not testing the production car and were very limited in the time they were allowed to drive it, and, from the tone of most of them, limited in what they were allowed to say in the articles. I think they weren't saying anything nice not because they didn't *like* the car, but because there was nothing they *could* say based on the time and information they had. There was really a whole lot of nothing in most of them.

In order to make any kind of decision about this car, I want to see and drive it for myself- it's like the overworked cliche- "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder." Maybe it should be something like "Perceived car performance is in the hands of the actual driver."

(On a side note- I have to say I am very happy Mazda is focusing on rear passenger comfort, however. It means (if I get one) I can carry more than myself and my husband around, and in a few years when they appear, I can toss the kid(s) in the back seat and I won't have to give up my "fun" car. There are plenty of sports cars for two people- but very few you can stuff a family in.)

m477

The previews have really been mixed, the performance number predictions have varied widely. It's been repeatedly pointed out the the test cars are far from what the production version will be, and the magazines have been allowed only very brief test drives. In writing their articles, they really just don't have very much info to work with.

It's anyone's guess as to whether or not we'll be happy with the final result, so it's still too early to really draw a definite conclusion. It really could go either way, but my hopes are still high at this point.

xkpbreaker

Who knows.... with a car that has this much potential and a company like Mazda... anythings possible...
It could even end up faster then the Z and out corner a GTR

RotorMotor

Yeah, I decided last week to hold off on the deposit and just leave my name on the waiting list at the dealership. I think I'll drive the car before I make my final decision, but I'm still VERY much in love with this machine and it's the only car out there that I truly have any passion for right now. The G35 coupe is sweet. I can appreciate the Z for what it is, but it's not my style. No offense to any owners but the WRX is flat out god-awful in my opinion in most categories other than the drive-train.

Besides all that, I love the versatility of being able to pile some friends in the back for a night out, or being able to take it down to an autocross track (the stadium parking lot here in San Diego) and revving it up. Also, my dad has a long history with Mazda and an extremely frugal mentality so it's the only car I could spend $30k on without getting an earfull from him about saving money ("You get rich by living benenath your means son, not by making millions of dollars a year").... Yeah, yeah, yeah.... :p

Spoonie

When I mentioned the possibility of the RX8 being a let down. I was harassed and accused of being a troll. This is my first post since Thanksgiving. The reason why? The RX8 is not what I expected. Unless something drastic happens, the RX8 is close to being scratched off as a possible replacement for my 330i. What really scared me was the comparisons to the S2000, which I found to be a Torque-less, overrated, Buzz Bomb that would give anyone headaches if you drove it on the highway for more than 30 minutes. The Rotary may be smoother, but I’m not too comfortable having to redline the car to get some decent thrust out of the thing. I’ll wait for a real road test to make my final decision. But I doubt that the RX8 will perform as well as the G35 or a 330i.

My guess is that the RX8 will do 0-60 in the 6.8-7.2 seconds range, and the ¼ mile in 15.3 - 15.6s range @ 89mph -92 mph. The RX8 is not offering anything that the competition does not already have, except maybe suicide doors and a rotary engine. Will that be enough? We will see. One thing for sure is that the RX8 cannot claim “Class leading performance”.

The demographic here on the RX8Forum seems to be broken into 3 camps:

1) the handling type - "As long as it handles I don't care about acceleration".

2) the McGyver type - "let’s include a Tow-Hitch, Bike Rack and Station wagon version. Let’s turn the thing into a Swiss army knife".

3) Troll Type (me) - "Give the damn thing some Low end Torque, 330i, G35 type performance".

It seems that type 1 will get its wishes.
Type 2 should be looking into an SUV or a minivan.
Type 3 will not like the RX8. Without any good low end torque the RX8 will feel like any of the other average performing vehicles that are already out there. Nice handling is fun, but without any real force my fun meter will not come close to being pegged.

Hercules

Spoonie, while I can understand your problems with the 8's torque and off-the-line accelleration, I think they are a bit unfounded.

As per your estimate of 6.8-7.2 seconds to 60, I have to laugh. My best guess is that it will be just shy of 6 seconds -- the 210 horsepower version might be in the 6.8-7.2 range. This puts it in good company.

As per accelleration, I think it will be quick, but no probably not as quick as a G35 or 350Z. I think where the RX-8 will shine is its handling characteristics. Mazda has been known to make very agile and nimble cars, that respond well to driver inputs and the suspension keeps tires in contact with the road. I've no doubt that the RX-8 will be a superb handler, as this is the make-it-or-break-it deal for Mazda in their rotary lineup.

It comes down to balance. The G35 has it, the 330 has it. Good power (accelleration), good handling, and a body and chassis that can handle all you want to put it in and abuse it that you can.

I think though, that with the estimates you're putting out yourself you sell the RX-8 short. I'm willing to bet that Mazda will release the 8 with a claimed 0-60 time of 6 seconds. People hand timing the car have already put it under 6 seconds, and with the proper equipement can prove that fact.

As per your comments about the "three types" of people that post here... The first is simply false. If the case was that we didn't want power we'd all be buying a Miata instead of the RX-8. The RX-8 brings us more power, stiffer chassis and better handling.

Some of us also need that rear seat. I do personally dread the station wagon creations, tow bars, etc... I don't think they have any room on a car like this. However their reasons are not completely unfounded; they want a real world sports car, that will allow them to take their bikes along with them (which is why the tow bar was suggested). I can understand the notion, but I also feel that it's a silly thing to do on this car.

As per the last, the trolls... They look exclusively for power. Now I don't know which category to dump you into. Your own estimates put the RX-8 at 6.8-7.2 seconds to 60 which is for the most part, laughable. Your 'performance' indicators seem to prove that you look moreso for power rather than handling and for that I can say, you are in small company. I was looking at a 330i for quite a while until I heard about the RX-8. I was convinced that the 330i would be my next car -- I had gone so far as to start pricing it out and figuring out my packages.

However the 8 offers everything the 330i will in a sleeker, cheaper package. The straight line times will be nearly identical if not faster on the 8. The handling on both cars will be superb, but the RX-8 having a signifigant weight advantage on the 330 gives it a good deal more agility and tossability. The RX-8 seats four as well as the 330i, though in the 330 you can squeeze a 5th person back there if you really wanted to. The trunk on the RX-8 should be just about the same. Both cars to the eye, look great.

So in the end, it comes down to whether the RX-8 will actually live up to the hype. I think that it will because as I've said, it's Mazda's last chance to introduce (successfully) a rotary powered sports car that gives as good or better performance as the cars in its class. If it's priced at 31k loaded like I hope, does the dash to 60 as fast I think it will, and handle like it should, then it's a no brainer -- the RX-8 will be hands down, the best car for the money, and even then some.

The choice is yours.

Quick_lude

While I agree with you Spoonie that a lot of people on this board might have unrealistic expectations, the acceleration numbers you posted here will not be true. My car with 200hp and 2960lbs weight does 6.8-7.1 and 14.9-15.2. So the RX-8 with 250hp and ~2850 weight should produce numbers very close to the S2000, about 6.0-6.3 and 13.9-14.2 depending on the driver and gearing.

I have refrained so far from getting into these threads about RX-8 will be this or that.. for the simple reason nobody has tested a FINAL PRODUCTION version. Until that time it's all speculation and while it is fun to do that in anticipation, any heated arguments are moot and a waste of time. shrug... I've got better things to waste my time on. Let's wait and see..

Spining Ncnratr

And I second it. Until the final version is out for real test no one trully knows what to expect.

Fëakhelek

True, but if Mazda actually looks at this forum (as we all hope they do) then it can't hurt to mention the desire for more power.

I don't see why people argue over whether more power is right for the RX-8 or if handling is more important. It's not like the car won't handle as well if it has more low end torque.

Zio

the RX-8 does not need more power, the WRX does 0-60 in 5.3 seconds with less HP (227). It needs better acceleration, which calls for more torque.

Spining Ncnratr

And is about 500lbs heavier to.

max_stirling

The RX-8 is more sports sedan than a sports car with 4 doors and 4 seats and that's perfectly fine with me. I have a sports car and I don't plan on replacing my RX-7 with a RX-8. What I do plan on doing is replacing my 626 ES V6 5spd with either a MazdaSpeed 6 or a RX-8 (will only consider the MazdaSpeed RX-8 if it comes with factory FI and >320 HP).

I think I'm a good example of the primary market for the RX-8. I'm young (30), married, middle/upper middle class, with a kid (maybe two in a couple of years). I commute 60-80 miles a day which includes taking my dauther to and from daycare. I want 4 big doors and 4 real seats, but I also want my drive to work or anywhere else to be fun and invigorating.

My girl is young (8 months) and requires a car seat. Actaully, she will probably require a car seat for many more years. This is where the rear doors come into play and this is exactly why I would never consider a coupe or any two door like the G35 or S2000 are an option for my daily commuter, though they are both very nice cars in their own right.

I think the RX-8 will compete with the likes of 325i, A4 1.8T, and Subaru WRX in terms of size, performance and price. To be perfectly honest, on paper, the WRX is one of the best deals out there that would fit my needs, but I'm not too enamured with its looks and I'm very much a Mazdaphile.

Cheers

Macabre

The WRX is only 3085lbs