Dick Carlson

Yep, already PM'd them and they are on it.

Zeltar

CEL came on again last night. Boy - that was the longest it has EVER stayed off. Friday Night through Monday afternoon. Almost 1800 miles now, of which 1700 had the CEL on. Took it back to the dealer again (the new one). Looks like my car just got all its credentials as a lemon. Suitable for yellow, I suppose.

I think I'll see how they do this time. If it comes on again, I'll bypass the dealer services and mail the copies to the lawyer.

JaChTsai

Damn Zeltar. When you thought you were in the clear... that sux, man... So Mazda will pay for your lemon lawyer? Also, I didn't keep all my repair orders, but that shouldn't be too big of a problem right? considering I had all my work done at the same dealership. Also, what are you gonna do? Opt for a new rx-8?

Zeltar

The attorney needs the repair orders and the purchase agreement in order to make the case. That is the evidence. I wouldn't want to depend on Mazda to build a lemon law case against themselves. Last half hour, I had a talk with a neighbor (coincidently an attorney) who has returned two cars because they were lemons. But, in her case, she negotiated with the dealers to buy the cars back. I was also thinking about doing this, because they have incentive. That is, if it actually "Lemons" through court, then it must be disclosed on resale AND if the car has the same problem only 1 more time in a year, it again qualifies as a lemon. If they buy it back, then they can sell it as a used car. Since you didn't keep the evidence, and Mazda does not know this, then I would try and get Mazda to buy the car back as it's more advantageous for them to do such.

On counterpoint, letting Mazda buy-it-back is like giving the lemon problem to someone else. Though it's not my problem anymore, I'm not sure that is fair to the next buyer.

Zeltar

Oh yeah, forgot this part of your question... I'm debating with getting another RX-8 (this time with the Navigation system, but delete the floor mats; delete the alarm shock sensor that should not have been sold to me in the first place according the service bullitens; delete the spare tire which is collecting dust in my garage; and delete the cassette play of which I can't imagine using. That ought to just about cover the cost variance.

The other options may be the G35, the 325i, or the Saab 9.5. I don't think they are as fun, but I need reliablity over anything. Except, I keep wondering if I don't want to try performance on the other end of the spectrum - mileage... which begs the question is the Toyota Prius something to look into.

compaddict

I just picked up my second RX-8 (I did the buyback on the first) with the NAV and love it. Some more advice.. I would get a RX-8 with a late build date of 10-2003 or later. My new car is quite a bit different/better than the old.

Vince

Nubo

Huh? "only" 12.4 volts? It's a 12-volt battery, right?

Alternators put out around 14V or so IIRC, but 12.4 sounds ok for the battery. When the engine is running electric demand is satisfied by the alternator, not the battery.

zoom44

first let me say that i feel your pain. my car tripped the cel for the first tiem this morning. i only hope mine can be corrected quickly. we'll see.

second- i don't think throwing a cel 4 times is enough to qualify as a lemon. my understanding of the law is that it has to be the same problem 4 times that goes unresolved. or a variety of problems that keep the car out of service for whatever the set time limit is without resolution. but see a cel isn't a problem, it is an indicator of a condition that the computer has been told to warn you about. the cel could trip 10 times but each time for a different condition, which wouldn't qualify it as a lemon. especially if it tripped, for instance, every time right after you refueled because you weren't tightening the gas cap properly. or because you ignored the low oil light long enough to trip the cel, several times. so the important thing it would seem to me, would be to document the reason the cel tripped each time it does.

Zeltar

Thanks Zoom44. I'm aware of the provisions, and have consulted an attorney just to make sure I don't misinterpret the law. Here is a link to the California law:

http://www.lemonauto.com/lemon_laws/text_ca.htm

For paragrah (b) which reads
I believe this section applies:
and nonconformity in the law is defined as:
Your point is well taken. Does CEL mean substantially impairs the use, value, or safety of the new motor vehicle. I'm thinking yes, because if it's a false indication, then the fact that it is on will cover up a real problem if one were to exist. Also, it will be difficult to sell a vehicle at a competitive value if it has a warning light on.

Also, I do not believe that the dealer can claim that any of their fixes brought resolution. Since, the light came on either before I left the service department parking lot, or within 72 hours of leaving the dealership every time. This is a strong indication that their guess at what should fix the problem was incorrect each and every time! They can reset the light and give me the car stating they solved the problem. But, that doesn't hold water. Part of the CEL test, according to the Mazda mechanic, happens at engine shutdown - but it doesn't do the test everytime. Various "events" trigger the tests. According to one Mazda Service Department, they are reseting the CEL on cars not sold yet - just to get them out the door.

zoom44

thanks zeltar for the clarifications. so if the service is incompetent or lazy and you ask for lemon status can mazda then say "well wait give us a chance! let us send our techs over to fix it right" can you legally refuse that or do they have a right to correct it?

edit: did they tell you what error codes they were getting on your car?

Zeltar

You know zoom44, it's been in the shop the last two full days and I still don't have it back. I guess, we'll all find out together - as I'll keep updating this thread as events unfold.

It's my understanding that this is their last chance. By putting my VIN in their computer, they can see all the service across dealerships. I've been saying to friends orally that if I we're Mazda, and I knew this was my last chance - I'd now keep the car as long as possible to make sure I took care of the problem (since I have around 2.5 weeks left for the 30 day limit).

The Service guys did not orally share the code(s). But, looking at my documentation, they printed them on the receipts. That's good enough for me.

Zeltar

Your words are inspiring. I just may follow in your foot steps.

Zeltar

I'm not sure about this. Seems to me that all my cars put out about 13.5 volts. And, even when I was heavy into CB Radio, the DC Converter (if you used a mobile as a base) also put out 13.5 volts. Based on my memory of this, I didn't question the mechanic when he showed me that it was low. But, then again, I thought the alternator charged the battery, and that the electronics were run off the battery itself. Also, that the regulator determined how much charge the battery needed.

Zeltar

Mazda tech line won't let them release the car! Looks like I was unintentionally correct - they want to make sure they got it right. Maybe flying some tech's out from Japan to look at it.

compaddict

What VIN range is your car?

Vince

Zeltar

0109xxx where xxx is beteen 000 and 999.

compaddict

Thanks, I was just wondering!

Vince

JaChTsai

My car has been out for almost a week now. Cumulatively, it's been out for about 13, 14 days. They're dropping a new engine in, but I wonder if it's going to solve anything.

Nubo

Car batteries are generally 12 volts and are made up of 6 cells in series. Each cell puts out about 2 volts. That's a result of the electrical potential of the materials that make up the cell (lead/acid). That's why batteries can come in many sizes and all have the same basic voltage. I just checked the battery in my car and it reads 12.5V with no load.

The alternator has to put out enough voltage to charge the battery. It has to be higher than the battery's voltage before it can cram more electrons into the battery. Car's systems tap the battery, yes. But once the alternator is running, the resulting voltage to the car's systems is higher than what you'd get from the battery alone. This is probably where your remembrances of higher readings comes from. So, things that take car's electric power are designed with the running voltage in mind, like your CB. Since it could expect 13.5 volts in practice, it was designed for that power level. When using it as a base station, the power supply was designed to replicate that "normal" voltage.

Depending on the vehicle this can be noticeable, for instance if you park with your lights hitting a wall, turn off the car with the lights still on you will probably notice a distinct dimming of the lights. I can also note it distinctly when I run my portable air compressor. It's considerably peppier if I have the engine running.

This is why I was doubtful when I read they'd given you a new battery based on its reading of 12.4 volts. For one, that sounded fairly normal, and secondly the car's electrical is running at the alternator voltage when underway so it didn't seem likely to explain a CEL coming on during a ride.

Now perhaps I've misunderstood or there's been some miscommunication at the dealer and maybe they were talking about running voltage. But in that case I'd still be surprised that a battery swap was the only action taken.

I am rooting for them to get it right this time so you can put this all behind and enjoy your car.

Woodman

What is better about it? Mine is an August build with absolutely no problems. VIN 12XXX

Zeltar

Nubo - you didn't misunderstand a thing. I stood over the mechanic while he showed the service advisor and me the code, explained what Mazda and Ford said the code meant (they apparently have dual meanings) of which he trusted Mazda's definition more, proceeded to check the battery voltage and stated it was low. The car was not running. Thanks for taking time to provide a detailed explanation - it helps!

Zeltar

Update:
Very interesting. My car is no longer at the dealer I took it to. Nope. It was taken to Mazda North American headquarters in Irvine. I must admit, I'm a little impressed. I guess the Tech Line got tired of working through the field mechanic, and wanted to see it for themselves.

Keeping you all in the loop.

Zeltar

Update Again
Still driving a rental car. Currently suffering from RX-8 withdrawel symptoms.

The findings: One of three vacuum control switches is bad, which is throwing a PCM code. They replaced the switch. They did this late last week. But, have been keeping the car to make sure the fix works. Since they are keeping it so long, I went ahead and asked them to replace the oil pan (it's in the Bulletin VIN range). Hopefully, I get the car back tomorrow. We'll see.

Lemon Law count down: This is the 4th attempt of a total of 4 allowed (i.e. they must get it right). I need to compute exactly, but I think we are over 50% through the out-of-service count of 30 days.

compaddict

Good luck!

Vince

Nubo

Hopefully this will do the trick! Have fun