can we quit it with the mileage threads!
05-31-2004, 08:59 PM
#26
Momentum Keeps Me Going
bingo! check this site if you want some mileage complaints http://slashdot.org/articles/04/05/1....shtml?tid=126
It's not mazda, it's the epa test.
It's not mazda, it's the epa test.
Last edited by Spin9k; 05-31-2004 at 09:04 PM.
05-31-2004, 09:07 PM
#27
Originally posted by MyRx-8yourcar
So there not mazda's numbers, but mazda did the testing for the MPG? So how are those numbers not Mazda's? The U.S. government requires that the numbers be posted. They may even go as far as designing the testing for MPG figures. Maybe the MPG numbers are picked by an offical playing Keno in Vegas.
So there not mazda's numbers, but mazda did the testing for the MPG? So how are those numbers not Mazda's? The U.S. government requires that the numbers be posted. They may even go as far as designing the testing for MPG figures. Maybe the MPG numbers are picked by an offical playing Keno in Vegas.
I will do the research for you - but next time you bitch about Mazda when it has nothing to do with them, I will slap you around.
All vehicles - from gas-guzzling Hummer H2s to fuel-sipping Priuses - fare better on the test than they do on the road. But because mileage ratings are much higher for fuel-efficient cars, a small percentage discrepancy can translate into a big mileage difference between the test results and reality.
The discrepancy stems from an outdated EPA testing procedure that was created nearly 40 years ago and that does not reflect accurately today's driving styles or routes.
"It was developed in the 1960s, when there were limitations on the test equipment at the time," Hermance said in an interview at the recent EVS-20 electric vehicle convention in Long Beach, Calif.
"They couldn't even brake hard because the testing equipment couldn't handle it. It really is 50th-percentile driving. No one drives like that anymore."
Why are the official EPA numbers so different from reality?
A bigger penalty
The EPA city-driving test simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 mph and a maximum speed of 56 mph. The trip has 23 stops and includes time for the vehicle to idle at a standstill. The highway test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph. The maximum speed is 60 mph.
The EPA already adjusts the fuel-economy results from its dynomometer test to account for "road load" - the difference between controlled laboratory conditions and the actual road. For city driving, the penalty is 10 percent; for highways, it is 22 percent.
But certain loads, such as running the air conditioning, are not considered. Neither is cold weather, which disproportionately penalizes battery-powered vehicles more than internal-combustion ones.
The discrepancy stems from an outdated EPA testing procedure that was created nearly 40 years ago and that does not reflect accurately today's driving styles or routes.
"It was developed in the 1960s, when there were limitations on the test equipment at the time," Hermance said in an interview at the recent EVS-20 electric vehicle convention in Long Beach, Calif.
"They couldn't even brake hard because the testing equipment couldn't handle it. It really is 50th-percentile driving. No one drives like that anymore."
Why are the official EPA numbers so different from reality?
A bigger penalty
The EPA city-driving test simulates an 11-mile, stop-and-go trip with an average speed of 20 mph and a maximum speed of 56 mph. The trip has 23 stops and includes time for the vehicle to idle at a standstill. The highway test simulates a 10-mile trip and averages 48 mph. The maximum speed is 60 mph.
The EPA already adjusts the fuel-economy results from its dynomometer test to account for "road load" - the difference between controlled laboratory conditions and the actual road. For city driving, the penalty is 10 percent; for highways, it is 22 percent.
But certain loads, such as running the air conditioning, are not considered. Neither is cold weather, which disproportionately penalizes battery-powered vehicles more than internal-combustion ones.
05-31-2004, 09:09 PM
#28
Momentum Keeps Me Going
If you want to really understand just how *ukd-up it is get this, no ****, it's the law:
According to the EPA website, "The tests measure the waste substances emitted from consuming the fuel, not the actual fuel consumed. From the measurement of emissions, EPA can estimate the miles per gallon achieved by the vehicle on average."
EPA Estimates... yea right!
ps here's their informative little explaination http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/gasmel.pdf
According to the EPA website, "The tests measure the waste substances emitted from consuming the fuel, not the actual fuel consumed. From the measurement of emissions, EPA can estimate the miles per gallon achieved by the vehicle on average."
EPA Estimates... yea right!
ps here's their informative little explaination http://www.epa.gov/otaq/cert/dearmfr/gasmel.pdf
Last edited by Spin9k; 05-31-2004 at 09:14 PM.
05-31-2004, 09:11 PM
#29
heh. That is because it would be too easy to measure how much fuel you put into the car. Measuring it by exhaust is better because then they have something to do after lunch time.
05-31-2004, 09:15 PM
#30
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Originally posted by MyRx-8yourcar
Don't get me wrong I love the car and by no means did I think I was getting an econo-box. But I'm getting 10 mpg. I'm no where near Mazda's numbers. I don't know how they got that number unless the flinstoned their a$$ in the car. But when my 2900 lb car get the same gas milage as an H2.....there's something wrong.
Don't get me wrong I love the car and by no means did I think I was getting an econo-box. But I'm getting 10 mpg. I'm no where near Mazda's numbers. I don't know how they got that number unless the flinstoned their a$$ in the car. But when my 2900 lb car get the same gas milage as an H2.....there's something wrong.
05-31-2004, 09:36 PM
#31
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I agree with some of the reactions to the thread-starter here. I'd just have said it nicer. If you have no interest in mileage, ignore the threads. Some of us drive a lot of miles to work (my weekly total is at least 450 miles) or have other reasons to care about MPG. I, for one, would have sold mine back to Mazda last Sept if I'd been getting any less than 18MPG. The single largest problem that the owners seem to have is the VARIANCE in MPG. Granted, some drive 90-100% city and others 90% highway. But my single worst tank is better than the best others have had. Something else is going on here. If I drove some forum member's cars for a week instead of mine I'm sure my average would not increase from their 10 or 13 or 15 to my 21. CZ can vouch for the variation from car to car. The PCM is part of it but there's much more to the story than just that. Those who care, stay tuned. We'll be learning more about this through at least the end of this year (IMHO). Those who don't care, ignore them. OTH, if all you cared about was the performance of the car - why read about those threads if you're getting the performance you want. For that matter, if you have the car,why read ANY threads??
05-31-2004, 09:56 PM
#32
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Originally posted by JasonHamilton
You really should not be bitching if you don't even know what is going on. You're complaining about Mazda when it has nothing to do with Mazda, and even when you're told that it has nothing to do with Mazda, you start making up dumb jokes.
I will do the research for you - but next time you bitch about Mazda when it has nothing to do with them, I will slap you around.
You really should not be bitching if you don't even know what is going on. You're complaining about Mazda when it has nothing to do with Mazda, and even when you're told that it has nothing to do with Mazda, you start making up dumb jokes.
I will do the research for you - but next time you bitch about Mazda when it has nothing to do with them, I will slap you around.
"The manufacturer's data (or harmonically averaged data if more than one test is conducted) will be compared with the results of the administrator's test."
"Previous acceptance by the administrator of any fuel economy test data submitted by the manufacturer shall not limit the administrator's right to require additional testing under paragraph (h)(I) of this section."
Don't tell me the manufacture has nothing to do with it kid!
05-31-2004, 09:58 PM
#33
the Doctor
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ive become a rotorholic i come here to read what others have to say about this car. I love the tech garage section, lots of really neat info there that has been quite enriching knowledgewise...this forum also is a great place to get new news on the RX-8...plus a great waste of time at work haha.
i try to read a lot of threads and i was just speaking my conscience when i logged on today and noticed that like 3 of the top 5 threads (on the list) had something to do with mileage (fixing the mileage problem,asking about mileage, trading in a car over mileage). i kinda felt irked and wanted to complain. thats all, just trying to get back to the roots of talking about how great it feels to drive this car, and if people think thats sophomoric, foolish, or irrational then fine call me a fool for loving this car for what it was meant to do.
i try to read a lot of threads and i was just speaking my conscience when i logged on today and noticed that like 3 of the top 5 threads (on the list) had something to do with mileage (fixing the mileage problem,asking about mileage, trading in a car over mileage). i kinda felt irked and wanted to complain. thats all, just trying to get back to the roots of talking about how great it feels to drive this car, and if people think thats sophomoric, foolish, or irrational then fine call me a fool for loving this car for what it was meant to do.
05-31-2004, 09:59 PM
#34
Originally posted by MyRx-8yourcar
First off....don't make threats to me....it's rather funny. Second I'll some research for you. Below is taken straight from the law. I'd post the entire 65 pages but that might be overkill:
"The manufacturer's data (or harmonically averaged data if more than one test is conducted) will be compared with the results of the administrator's test."
"Previous acceptance by the administrator of any fuel economy test data submitted by the manufacturer shall not limit the administrator's right to require additional testing under paragraph (h)(I) of this section."
Don't tell me the manufacture has nothing to do with it kid!
First off....don't make threats to me....it's rather funny. Second I'll some research for you. Below is taken straight from the law. I'd post the entire 65 pages but that might be overkill:
"The manufacturer's data (or harmonically averaged data if more than one test is conducted) will be compared with the results of the administrator's test."
"Previous acceptance by the administrator of any fuel economy test data submitted by the manufacturer shall not limit the administrator's right to require additional testing under paragraph (h)(I) of this section."
Don't tell me the manufacture has nothing to do with it kid!
Birthday November 16, 1977 - You've got nerve calling me a kid.
05-31-2004, 10:23 PM
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How does it not change the fact if mazda supplies their own numbers? Yes the numbers are printed by the EPA and the law clearly states that if the manufacturer's numbers are in agreement with the administrator's, those of the administration will be used to represent the vehicle. With that in mine it is clear that the manufacturer DOES play a big part in MPG ratings. What I quoted is incontravertable. And yes I do have alot of nerve...
05-31-2004, 10:32 PM
#36
Momentum Keeps Me Going
Originally posted by MyRx-8yourcar
How does it not change the fact if mazda supplies their own numbers? Yes the numbers are printed by the EPA and the law clearly states that if the manufacturer's numbers are in agreement with the administrator's, those of the administration will be used to represent the vehicle. With that in mine it is clear that the manufacturer DOES play a big part in MPG ratings. What I quoted is incontravertable. And yes I do have alot of nerve...
How does it not change the fact if mazda supplies their own numbers? Yes the numbers are printed by the EPA and the law clearly states that if the manufacturer's numbers are in agreement with the administrator's, those of the administration will be used to represent the vehicle. With that in mine it is clear that the manufacturer DOES play a big part in MPG ratings. What I quoted is incontravertable. And yes I do have alot of nerve...
05-31-2004, 10:39 PM
#39
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Incontrovertable or not, the fuel efficiency numbers which exist in the U.S. are not Mazda's numbers:
"The Environmental Protection Agency is responsible for testing the fuel efficiency of automobiles to be marketed in the United States, and for reporting the corporate average fuel economy rating of each manufacturer's sales fleet to the Department of Transportation."
Center for Auto Safety v. Thomas
806 F.2d 1071, 1072-73 (D.C. Cir. 1986).
"The Environmental Protection Agency is responsible for testing the fuel efficiency of automobiles to be marketed in the United States, and for reporting the corporate average fuel economy rating of each manufacturer's sales fleet to the Department of Transportation."
Center for Auto Safety v. Thomas
806 F.2d 1071, 1072-73 (D.C. Cir. 1986).
05-31-2004, 10:48 PM
#40
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Actually the only time the numbers are solely the EPA is when the administrator feels the manufacturer's numbers were unrepresentative. I am familure with the CAS v. Thomas case. Note is was litigated in 1986. The law I am quoting was amended in 1995.
06-01-2004, 03:07 AM
#44
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All I know is... gas is expensive right now...my rx-8 drinks gas like a pig... I ran my s2000 for the last wee, hard...and got 21mpg.
Am I complaining? Nah... does it suck? Yup.
Am I complaining? Nah... does it suck? Yup.
06-01-2004, 07:55 AM
#47
This is the first time I've had to argue with someone about EPA numbers... here's my last attempt. It both validates and invalidates your stance on the EPA.
A brief description of the EPA test cycles is here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates
Suggested reading: http://www.bluewaternetwork.org/repo...falsehood2.pdf
"FUEL ECONOMY FALSEHOODS: How government misrepresentation of fuel conomy hinders efforts to reduce global warming and US dependence on foreign oil" by the Bluewater Network, 2002
I also wanted to point out that Toyota would be in deep **** over their hybrids ... Toyota KNOWS the actual fuel consumption of their hybrids, but cannot change the EPA numbers posted. This is a dual edged sword. On one hand, their customers are disappointed in the actual gas mileage, on the other, they aren't responsible for the numbers so they don't face any repercussions for it, as they would be if they mislabeled other numbers on the car (a la mazda rx-8 hp figures)
A brief description of the EPA test cycles is here:
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/info.shtml#estimates
How are fuel economy estimates obtained?
The fuel economy estimates are based on results of tests required by
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). These tests are used
to certify that vehicles meet the Federal emissions and fuel economy
standards. Manufacturers test pre-production prototypes of the new
vehicle models and submit the test results to EPA. EPA re-tests about
10% of vehicle models to confirm manufacturer's results. The vehicles
are driven by a professional driver under controlled laboratory
conditions, on an instrument similar to a treadmill. These procedures
ensure that each vehicle is tested under identical conditions;
therefore, the results can be compared with confidence.
The fuel economy estimates are based on results of tests required by
the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA). These tests are used
to certify that vehicles meet the Federal emissions and fuel economy
standards. Manufacturers test pre-production prototypes of the new
vehicle models and submit the test results to EPA. EPA re-tests about
10% of vehicle models to confirm manufacturer's results. The vehicles
are driven by a professional driver under controlled laboratory
conditions, on an instrument similar to a treadmill. These procedures
ensure that each vehicle is tested under identical conditions;
therefore, the results can be compared with confidence.
Suggested reading: http://www.bluewaternetwork.org/repo...falsehood2.pdf
"FUEL ECONOMY FALSEHOODS: How government misrepresentation of fuel conomy hinders efforts to reduce global warming and US dependence on foreign oil" by the Bluewater Network, 2002
I also wanted to point out that Toyota would be in deep **** over their hybrids ... Toyota KNOWS the actual fuel consumption of their hybrids, but cannot change the EPA numbers posted. This is a dual edged sword. On one hand, their customers are disappointed in the actual gas mileage, on the other, they aren't responsible for the numbers so they don't face any repercussions for it, as they would be if they mislabeled other numbers on the car (a la mazda rx-8 hp figures)
06-01-2004, 10:05 AM
#48
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Re: can we quit it with the mileage threads!
Originally posted by MazdaspeedFeras
i know this thread's prolly a waste of space and irrelevant, but c'mon people no one bought this car for the mileage, you bought this car as a speedy car that is like superglue in the curves. If i wanted a car with great mileage id be driving a civic hybrid...
i bought this car specifically as a toy, not as a practical car, specifically because im fed up with 4 cylinder sedans and coupes. i dont care paying 30 bucks every 3-5 days for gas...thats fine, its a fast car it eats gas...period. This car puts a smile on my face every day, and even though im only getting 13-14 mpg i dont care, i live for the speed i live for the curves, who cares how much it costs to get that smile every day...its fun...thats it!
im just confused about seeing a new gas mileage thread every day...its kinda annoying
i know this thread's prolly a waste of space and irrelevant, but c'mon people no one bought this car for the mileage, you bought this car as a speedy car that is like superglue in the curves. If i wanted a car with great mileage id be driving a civic hybrid...
i bought this car specifically as a toy, not as a practical car, specifically because im fed up with 4 cylinder sedans and coupes. i dont care paying 30 bucks every 3-5 days for gas...thats fine, its a fast car it eats gas...period. This car puts a smile on my face every day, and even though im only getting 13-14 mpg i dont care, i live for the speed i live for the curves, who cares how much it costs to get that smile every day...its fun...thats it!
im just confused about seeing a new gas mileage thread every day...its kinda annoying
06-01-2004, 10:13 AM
#49
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after my roadtrip to va this weekend im up to around 16.7 total, but that includes almost 70% hw driving. i did 1200 miles in the last few days, 1150ish of them highway and the avg mpg 19.8, with 21.1 being my best tank (ever, actually.) by the sticker numbers that should put me at 22.2 for the life, which is a significant difference.
i didnt buy the car for mileage, but when a car says 18/24 i expect to get that when babying it. with the cost of gas thats almost an extra grand a year, which would give me a great new suspension setup. for those that have an 8 as a toy thats fine, but for us daily drivers its a significant financial drain.
i didnt buy the car for mileage, but when a car says 18/24 i expect to get that when babying it. with the cost of gas thats almost an extra grand a year, which would give me a great new suspension setup. for those that have an 8 as a toy thats fine, but for us daily drivers its a significant financial drain.
Last edited by kellybrf; 06-01-2004 at 10:16 AM.
06-01-2004, 12:10 PM
#50
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good point kellybrf.....
For most normal people who drive an 8 as their daily driver and not some "toy", gas mileage is at least somewhat important. It's a significant cost and having bad mileage can severely drain your pocket over time. If you don't like this fact than don't open the threads dealing with mpg. It's that simple.
I like many, many aspects of the 8, but the gas mileage talk has kept me from making a serious attempt at buying one. I'm grateful to the people on this forum who have discussed this topic fairly and honestly.
For most normal people who drive an 8 as their daily driver and not some "toy", gas mileage is at least somewhat important. It's a significant cost and having bad mileage can severely drain your pocket over time. If you don't like this fact than don't open the threads dealing with mpg. It's that simple.
I like many, many aspects of the 8, but the gas mileage talk has kept me from making a serious attempt at buying one. I'm grateful to the people on this forum who have discussed this topic fairly and honestly.