JGard18

sorry, RSX isn't a sports car. It's a sport luxury coupe.

Think about it, how can it be a sports car if you can't easily control all four wheels. In RWD, gas controls the rears, wheel the fronts. FWD, gas controls the fronts, and hey, so does the wheel... heh...

Johnny

And there's no such thing as a 4-door sports car either, so even if the Rx-8 has two suicide doors it still has a total of 4 doors and 4 seats which falls under the family car category or sport sedan, and just because a car is FWD it dosen't make it unworthy for competing with other sports cars, i've seen one too many FWD cars walk all over RWD sport cars in autocross and 1/4's.

BTW there are FWD sports cars the Peugeot 306 GTi-6 is a FWD sports car and TRD is also in the process of designing a new FWD sports car. Don't be so closed minded now where did i hear that one before.....

JGard18

it's not being closed minded...it's knowing a thing or two about what affects a car's performance.

Sorry, but the number of doors won't change my 1/4 mile times, and it won't slow me down on an autocross track.

However, you try to put all the power to the ground on a FWD car, it won't happen. The only Peugeot sports car is the 206 rally car, 300hp, AWD. The 306, nah. Toyota? Nah, unless you're speaking of the MR-S. What good is a car that can't even efficiently put 120hp to the ground? I drove a Saturn for 6 months, when in between cars, and that thing could spin the tires through 3 gears. It was 124hp. I'd have to get on it in a new Maxima...you wouldn't be able to control the thing.

Oh, and understeer and torque steer are also lovely features. Something I think any sports car wouldn't be complete without

Do you participate in any driving events? cause statements like yours make it sound like you don't, but I want to give you the benefit of the doubt.

At the rally school I just took, there was one thing they were always telling us. Oversteer = good, understeer = bad. It's VERY VERY hard to oversteer a FWD car...let alone control that oversteer. At least you can control the whole car with rear or all wheel drive. In front drive, you have no control over your rear tires.

4 doors, though...come on...where's the basis of your arguement? Cause I haven't heard anything at all from you...

spwolf

I can see many faulty arguments here so I dont know where to start... what is sports car? Is it a fast car that handles well? Then sure, there are plenty of fine FWD cars...

Rally car is different breed of fastcar, sure it can be sports car but sports cars are not limited to rally cars either. Ask your instructors on what would make a better rally car, FWD or RWD... FWD wins any time, RWD is much harder to control on unstable surfaces. Give me Clio 172 and you go in BMW 330i in some gravel or mud road and we will see who wins.. if you make it to the finish.. or in rain... urgh...

306 GTI is a hot hatch... same as Clio 172 or any of those MG Rovers, even GTI 180 etc, etc... is it a sports car? It goes well, it handles well, but it aint a ferrari either.

Do you need to race car on the track in order for it to be a sports car? Definetly not... why would pay $50k for M3 and all its extras, just to trash it on the track...stupid. Get an SVT Mustang and enjoy yourself on the track w/o all those eletronic gadgets.

I think that what we all are looking is a sporty car, no matter if it is a hot hatch, 4x4 or Mazda RX-8.

Mini Cooper S is a nice car, hot hatch for sure, almost fully loaded it is around $24k... however, RX-8 will beat it in every possible acceleration test by a lot for $2k more plus it seats 4 and it is roomier. Nevertheless, Mini is all about style and handling and I like it.

Maxima a sports car? Sure engine is all right, but rest is shitty, including exterior looks and interior plastics that look like ones from Geo Metro.

JGard18 comparing Saturn to sporty FWD is ignorant really. You seem to think that WRX or EVO are only true sports cars... no they are not, they are shitty econoboxes with nice engine and AWD system... thats all it is.

Johnny

I agree, but the number of doors does change the class the car falls in.

Says who? You? Thats very untrue, if you're having trouble controlling a FWD vehicle then don't blame it on the car blame it on your driving skills. I understand thats its very difficult to oversteer a FWD car but people do it, so just because you can't oversteer fwd it dosen't mean no one else can, maybe you should take another school

Nah? Since when do you get to decide what a sports car is? The 306 is a Peugeot FWD sports car, get over it.


This goes back to how you drive your car, maybe you needed some new tires i don't know but its hard as hell to spin the tires in my FWD v6 cavalier, and i also had a saturn i would have to pop the clutch at 5,000rpm to get some minimal wheelspin. Just because your car had bald tires it dosen't make every FWD car horrible.

Not frequently, about six times a year.


Couldn't agree more.


I somewhat agree with that statement, but there's people out there and people i personally know that race FWD and pretty much mastered the FWD oversteer, and there's people who control FWD better than RWD just because they have been racing FWD cars for a long time, like i said earlier its all about your driving skills.

(read above statement) I will agree with you on that one from *my* driving skills, in my cavalier and old saturn i almost have to stop the car to make a simple turn, but again its easy for some people

My point is stop making the Rx-8 something its not. The Rx-8 is NOT a sports car, its a very, very sporty and great performing (from R&T drivers) 4 door (almost 2) sedan with a rotary Its like trying to say the Rx-3 was a sports car.......Keep them flames coming Jgard , this is the first Rx-8 small flame war

JGard18

first off, I never compared a POS Saturn to a sports car. I compared FWD to FWD. Even with an LSD, there will be traction problems. Simple issue of weight transfer. Nothing will make that go away.

Also, yes, there are quick cars out there that are on a FWD platform, but no, they are not sports cars.

I also never said the WRX and EVO were sports cars, and I never will say that. They are AWD turbocharged sedans.

Either way, there can be quick sporty FWD cars, but they are not sports cars.

a 911 Turbo is a sports car (if not a GT car), a Lotus Elise is a sports car. A VW GTI is not.

spwolf

There are not many differences left anymore, it used to be that Sports cars were fast cars and everything else is slow... now you can beat NSX for more than half the price, in every speed category... sports cars are not what they used to be anymore, so not calling RX-8 a sports car is nothing to moan about really...what you are basically saying is that sports car is a overpriced car that is hard to use in day to day life...

I think we are all talking about sporty/fast/quick cars here, and not classic definition of Sports Car from 80's. Lotus Elise and Porsche Turbo are as different as two cars can be... elise has 120 hp for god sakes and it is totally stripped out...

Call it what you want, we are in market for quick cars.

JGard18

johnny, no I didn't see your reply up there.

Anyway...

That saturn had good tires, not bald. Putting the power to the ground is somewhat a matter of driving skill, but the fact of the matter is, when you accelerate, all your weight goes to the rear of the car. Why would you not want weight on your drive tires? So, that being said, I don't care how good a driver one is, FWD will not put down power as efficiently as RWD. It's physics, plain and simple...you cannot argue it. It has little to do with the driver.

anyway, I wouldn't call this a flame war...just a difference in opinion

Johnny

I couldn't agree more, RWD is a million times better than FWD in every driving condition, i wouldn't race or autox a FWD thats just dumb in my opinion, but people do it, and some people are so good at it i just want to throw up. I had no intention whatsoever to say FWD is better than RWD, well i'm glad we settled our difference in opinion

spwolf

blah, FWD is much better than RWD in rain or snow, did you ever race a car or at least drive a car fast?

FWD sucks when car has more than 200 HP, although new cars use better weight distribution to eliminate wheel spin @ FWD cars. Dont diss mazda just on basis of being FWD car.. if it actually spins its wheels like crazy, then diss it... although I dont mind the spin, its all about balancing ;-)

veloceracing

The mini is very roomy. And the RX8 is only going to beat it in acceleration tests. But by less than a second (granted that is alot) how ever the MINI wil out handle the RX8 in every test and it IS FWD. Also the drive of the wheels does not affect wether or not it is a sports car or not. "sport" is a game or a challenge. Racing is a sport. Rally is a form of racing? so that means AWD can be sports car. AUTOX is a racing form and MINIs and many FWD cars do well there as well as RWD and MR cars. So the wheels dont designate what type of car it is. What is better? What ever suits the drivers needs and style. John Cooper was once criticized for putting the engine in the wrong place on an INDY car. Now all the engines are mounted behind the driver. Just as John Cooper had done by putting the engine in the "wrong place"

veloceracing

and for 2k More. You might not even get half the features. And it will still manhandle you on a nice twisty autox course, mountain road, traffic, city driving, buzzing around town.....

veloceracing

JGard In response to what you said. One of the biggest problems with FWD is the difference in size between the driveshafts. Not where the power comes out but how.

spwolf

Hey, I already like the Mini... we will see what happens when RX-8 comes out...RX-8 will have 90hp more... thats a lot... although I wont buy only for HP, package needs to fit right... Mini is really nice car that handles like nothing ever did before... I love small cars, so Mini has the advantage there, we will see

FritzMan

I hear ya SpyWolf, the Mini has caught my attention as well.

Thankfully, Mini comes with equal length driveshafts to eliminate torque steer. Here's a stat to see if the Mini is "sporty" or not. A popular mag (R&D or MotorTrend) ran a Mini (non S) through the slalom at a third quickest time ever for a stock vehicle. THe two quicker vehicles were Porsche turbos. Here's the kicker, the Mini was on four season tires!!!

Sure it's narrow, but that will give you lines in AutoX and lapping that larger cars could only dream about. The biggest fault about the Mini is that it doesn't come with a lsd (their traction control kills power, not reroutes it), and the 162 hp factory is simply not enough, even for a rather porky 2675 lbs vehicle (I'm sure it's more like 2500 lbs though). Sure, John Cooper has a 200 kit, but the S already comes at $30K Cdn. No doubt though, with a lsd, 200 hp, and gummy tires, this car will do lots of spanking on th AutoX.

Definitely gonna take one out though. I love small cars as well. I'd easily give up big hp for a more nimble vehicle. The fact that it's really safe, available this summer, and good on gas are bonuses as well.

DANNER

'03 looks like it's gonna be a great year for cars. Mazda with the 6 and the RX-8....Nissan with the 350Z, and the 6spd Maxima...Mistubishi with the EVOVII...I can't wait.

RX-7

Please...

maximas are FWD, and Ive heard crappy things about them. Pretty much a sporty accord.

The RX-8 will be lighter, RWD.

its competators should be more like a 325/330ci , WRX, Evo, and maybe 350z

cshepley

The Mini is not the end all be all of handling. That said, it's compact dimnsions will serve well at the autocross course, but on a real track I wouldn't be surprised to see a Mini way off the pace of an RX-8.

spwolf

hi,

you think 250 hp car can beat 163 hp car on the track? wow... thanks for enlighting us :D :D :D

Evolv

iTrader: (1)

Ok Ponder this:

The original RX-7 (all 3 generations) were destined to failure. Why? Because of the limited market of only having two doors and two seats. With this problem the sales volume was down and as emmision limitations were changing, so became the death of the RX-7.

The new Renesis engine is the answer, but in order to keep the cost down, there has to be a large volume of sales. That is why the RX-8 holds 4 people. (Bigger market - follow me so far)
Now Mazda is a very creative, smart company and to make the back seats more usable, they put in a 3rd and 4th door instead of adding an extra 2 feet to the front ones.

Now a Porsche 911, or 944, and 928 of the past all had back seats, and I defy anyone in this forum to make a stand and claim that those cars are not sports cars.

So what makes a sports car? That question has many possabilities, depending on who is answering. My opinion is that the 8 is a sports car.

It is reported to be faster then any of the 3 previous RX-7 models. Stiffer suspension, better handling, probably better breaking and WOW even better gas mileage.

If the 7 was a sports car, and the 8 is not because it has extra doors, then you're near sited and should step down from this forum, go buy a Honda Civic 2 door and see how you make out on a race track against an 8.

So until then, keep saving your hard earned bux and get ready for the best 4 door sports car the world has ever seen.

EVOLV

spwolf

lol... I doubt they will buy Honda Civic 2 door, more likely they will get 350Z or G35 Coupe or WRX... I could care less if RX-8 is marginally slower than any of those on the track, whats important is that it is usable, drivable, reliable (!) and nicely priced.

Grimace

I definately wouldn't call the previous RX-7's "failures". They sold very well for a niche sports car, and essentially proved rotaries were reliable (to all those that aren't close-minded).

Captainwow

Great information about the definition of a sports car.

I understand the effects that supply and demand have on price, and why people will pay a premium to have the only RX-8 in the parking garage for a year or so. The truth is that the RX-8 is entering a competitive market with well-established brands like BMW, Audi, or even Lexus for that matter.

The point:

RX-8 should take on the IS 300 and the new Z head on. That means under $30,000 US dollars. If Ford is allowing Jaguar (in my opinion the strongest brand in the Ford portfolio) to participate in this market with the X-type - it has to let (if not make) Mazda follow suite.

The weakness of my argument:

I have never driven a RX-8.

rvklein

Sure you can. It's called the Nissian Altima..

Strider

Wasn't this thread supposed to be about the cost at first? anyhoo-, Just wondering... :-)