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Originally Posted by hoss -05
(Post 4513435)
http://memecrunch.com/meme/3DRC/not-...ling/image.png
It would not be a RX if it had anything other then a rotory. You're right about it not being an RX, but it would only "not" be to us RX fans. The rest of the world, if they even knew what a rotary was probably could care less if mazda dumped in a piston engine. Hows this for speculation. What if the RX was slated to be a new sort of pioneering car and they did something like what Tesla is doing? Would it still be an RX at that point? |
"gasoline engine that runs on diesel only". Ken |
If manufacturers always stuck with what was known to work, and not try something different and across the grain, we wouldn't have the car choices we do today. Mazda has a history of pursuing the impossible. They even achieve it from time to time.
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They would probably abandon the RX moniker as that will always have an association to rotary engines
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Originally Posted by RIWWP
(Post 4513448)
If manufacturers always stuck with what was known to work, and not try something different and across the grain, we wouldn't have the car choices we do today. Mazda has a history of pursuing the impossible. They even achieve it from time to time.
Some even attribute their innovation with the RE to the success of Skyactiv. |
For your information:
Poll about original or 2nd engine question of the official German RX-8 Forum: 74 units 192 hp 42,77% 99 units 231hp 57,23% 173 units total 100 % (all manual transmission because automatic transmission was not offered/sold in Europe) ............................................... of which 12,85% have a second engine (only 1:8) Specification of units x building year 19 x BJ 03 76 x BJ 04 33 x BJ 05 26 x BJ 06 11 x BJ 07 5 x BJ 08 2 x BJ 09 1 x BJ 10 Total: 15.893.921 km's (9.933.700 mls) For total running distance of each individual RX-8 see link: http://www.rx8forum.de/index.php?pag...7e03db0df6f3b9 |
Originally Posted by nogoer
(Post 4513405)
The day reporters fully research and confirm their information will be a great day for the world. What's that saying...believe none of what you read and half of what you see or something? Even if the reporter got the numbers right there is still the possibility the person who typed the article transposed information. Yeah i have my tin foil hat on, but the day i believe facts from reporters is the day they report my death.
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Originally Posted by nogoer
(Post 4513424)
I.E. design limitations, although i admit i originally meant rotary in general not renesis specifically. Mazda will never get the kind of performance from a rotary like they can from a piston engine and still have it cost effective.
Honestly i don't know enough about rotaries to understand why mazda even kept them around as long as they did. With the failures i'm sure they asked themselves the same question though. It'd be interesting to have seen what the RX8 would have been like had they opted for a FI piston engine instead. Maybe if the Rx series comes back we'll get to see just that. http://m.autoblog.com/2013/08/16/mazda-16x-rotary-engine-two-years-away-all-new-model/?post=1&icid=autoblog_river_article |
Originally Posted by nogoer
(Post 4513438)
They already had plants in japan so why build one in the US as building a new plant no matter how cheap still costs more than using or retooling what you already have.
My basis for that argument was having it in the US means its easier and cheaper to supply your largest market which is why i think they opted for it here even if they could have built it cheaper elsewhere. Building here and then building in the UK or Canada as well just adds to the cost instead of just shipping them out from the US. Point is they aren't going to build a plant in every country they need to supply remans for. Someone needs to supply the global demand even if it's shared. The failure rate being whatever it is can't possibly be a burden only the US cars have. Maybe japan is supplying the rest of the world maybe they aren't. Maybe they have secret plants built all over supplying supply for the plants we know of so they can secretly control the perceived rate of failures. We all know japan has fooled us once before. in the rest of the world they do not do reman engines, you would get a new one. |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4513112)
j9fd3s, I think you are wrong on the 09's, our local guy inquired (he was demanding a new engine) and instead he got a reman, they told him that was all they were required to do and the told him it was coming from the same reman plant. Mazda NA told him the same thing. There was also a thread here from an R3 owner who's story was very similar. They both got remans. I never did see his car though after the engine was replaced because he sold it. |
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
(Post 4513948)
We get reman engines in the US because Mazdas license for the wankel engine did not let them sell new engines in the US. in the rest of the world they do not do reman engines, you would get a new one. |
Originally Posted by J8635621
(Post 4513954)
Do you have anything to back up any of this? That sounds like complete bullcrap
and "mazda motorsports" page 16 oddly the other place it would show up, is with the class action lawsuit from the 70's where Mazda had to replace everyones Rx2/Rx3 engines, but i can't find any references to it. the winners write the history books. |
Does Mazda sell Wankels here via sub-license from Curtiss Wright? (Or John Deere, then Rotary Power International...I'm guessing the rights went along with the sale.) I'm curious about the arrangement that lets Mazda bring in the engines as part of a car but not as replacements.
Ken |
Originally Posted by ken-x8
(Post 4514010)
Does Mazda sell Wankels here via sub-license from Curtiss Wright? (Or John Deere, then Rotary Power International...I'm guessing the rights went along with the sale.) I'm curious about the arrangement that lets Mazda bring in the engines as part of a car but not as replacements.
Ken |
Originally Posted by j9fd3s
(Post 4513950)
hmm could have sworn the reman list says that the 09 engines aren't remans. Mazda generally supplies new engines for the first year or two, and then switches to remans. occasionally they have a reman part number, but supply new assemblies, this has been the case with the FD engines. possibly for their license agreement, and possibly because there usually aren't enough usable parts in an FD engine after 100k to even bother rebuilding it
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I have a friend (more of a local autoX acquaintance actually) that had an engine failure in an 09 and the dealership told him that the replacement had to be a new engine
was the guy lying? maybe was the stealership lying? maybe but that was the story I was told |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4513085)
I know tons of RX-8 owners and I only know of one person who has not had an engine replacement and that is in her 07'. In our group we have had just about every year covered from 04-08 and all of them have had at least one engine replacement and many of them were bone stock and a couple of them have been low mileage 07's. We have had only one member with an 08' 40th and he is no longer around.
not everyone has bad luck with these engines |
Your recent 8's don't count they were not Mazda built engines. Your first one was a 6 port auto and you were the exception to the norm.
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aww man :(
ok only 130,000 miles then couple hundred track miles |
Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4514087)
It's very possible the 09+ engines are rebuilt using completely new parts but are still assembled by the reman plant thus considered a reman I guess.
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It's called anecdotal evidence
"A person sees several news stories about cats leaping out of tall trees and surviving, so he believes that cats must be robust to long falls. However, these kinds of news reports are far more common than reports where a cat falls out of the tree and dies, which could be more common."
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Yes, 5,000 Renesis rebuilds a year is nothing. :lol: How many miles are on your 8 again?
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4514346)
Yes, 5,000 Renesis rebuilds a year is nothing. :lol:
Seriously...wow! I'm still on my original engine with almost 40k miles... |
It's hit or miss, I have seen well maintained low mileage 07's lose compression with no warning. We recently compression tested an 04' RX-8 bought second hand that was a complete mess and not maintained well at all before the current owner bought it, and the compression numbers were the highest we have seen, :lol:
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so the trick is to not maintain the car? lol
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and rot gut gas lol
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Apparently I've gotten extremely lucky then. I picked up my 06 a month ago with 8.0+'s across the board. with 48k miles on it. Out of curiosity... I got a 4 year 48k bumper to bumper warranty slapped on her; are all engine replacements remans, or are just the ones done under the 8 year 100k Mazda warranty?
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pretty much all replacements are remans.
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Numbers that stood out to me until I read the story and that the plant is 130,000 sq ft! I'd always thought rotary engine assembly was hand done by a small crew in a clean room in Japan for all RX-8s produced. Watching too many utube videos of that process with like three guys assembling one I guess. However, 130,000 sq ft for a few assembly people? That doesn't pass the smell test....Hummm.
Then I read on further that there were originally 20 full time and 29 temps there, and that, "The plant also has a power steering pump line, a dealer training center and an information call center. The plant has remanufactured more than 150,000 pumps in 11 months, and Mazda said it expects to produce almost 200,000 pumps in support of the recall." That's a bit more plausible, but seems like a lot of real estate for that work. As to the remans themselves, it is also true that the plant also tests and distributes new Japanese sourced rotary engines, such as the one I got at ~35K miles. Sleepy-z wrote to me after I asked him my particular engine-to-be and sent me the compression test results on it and told me they had run out of remans and so was sending along this all new JDM engine. So to me it is unclear if the numbers coming from the plant are 'real' remans or just engines being shipped out, and so could include 'new' replacements as well. As to the number of engines remanded being "sad" or somehow indicting a failure by Mazda, I guess it depends on whether you look at it as a glass half full or half empty story. My take is that in engineering anything - failure is just an inevitable part of eventual success, Mazda wanted to learn from this situation i.e., "An investigation group at the site also analyzes the parts for any failures and provides feedback to the company to improve future designs.". They could have just shipped new engines in and given up on the rotary, but they wanted to improve things. The S2 was part of the resultant improvement, that shows some of what they learned, and I'm sure they are honing their knowledge as they gather statistics over time. Nothing like doing autopsies on each dead subject to teach exactly why they did expire. Let's hope this supposed future rotary build is the charm ... Mazda 16X rotary engine two years away, will arrive in all-new model - Autoblog |
Spin, you realize that article you linked is complete bunk, right?
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Originally Posted by RIWWP
(Post 4514663)
Spin, you realize that article you linked is complete bunk, right?
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https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...y-dead-247961/
Originally Posted by RIWWP
(Post 4513902)
That article is complete bs. Just someone else feeding on someone else's belief in the rumor mill.
- '16X' name was dropped a few/couple years ago - the dimensions of it were known - the name for the engine is currently 'Sky-R' - the oil consumption comments prove the ignorance and how that couldn't have been from Mazda - zero comment on SkyActive tech Mazda had previously mention |
All the information about the 16X engine has been known for over 2 yrs. The timeline for introducing a new car is too short.
If the news source was really from Mazda North America Operations, they have been a notoriously unreliable source of information about future vehicles. Remember the electric supercharged Mazdaspeed RX8? |
Sounds right, total cow flap stuff I imagine - I don't read these things carefully anymore as the rotary appears only a historical curiosity at this point anyway. I've got two 10 yrs old cars and one 14yr old one. I'll likely be upgrading before anything rotary ever arrives (doubtful anyway) which will close the door for me as I trade so infequently.
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Originally Posted by RIWWP
(Post 4514668)
https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discuss...y-dead-247961/
I'm not the only one with that opinion in the thread about the article. |
Sounds like a rhetorical question. Especially in light of completely fabricated "facts" in the article.
What about CNN? They are bonafide aren't they? How much do you believe them: https://www.rx8club.com/lounge-4/cnn...s-work-247865/ While a standard engine is powered by a belt connected to the crankshaft, a turbo engine runs on its own exhaust steam, making it more energy efficient. |
i like how they rebuild 200,000 power steering pumps a year, and we don't care, but 5,000 engines is a lot...
there was some recall on the mazda 3 pumps, i think they are replacing ALL of them. |
Mazda definitely seems to handle problems like these reasonably well. I was relieved to receive my remans early on after my standard warranty was up because had I had to pay for an engine rebuild back then I would have been in a tough spot due to my finances back then. I got my last reman with 96,000 miles on the odometer.
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Originally Posted by 9krpmrx8
(Post 4515585)
Mazda definitely seems to handle problems like these reasonably well. I was relieved to receive my remans early on after my standard warranty was up because had I had to pay for an engine rebuild back then I would have been in a tough spot due to my finances back then. I got my last reman with 96,000 miles on the odometer.
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Not sure if this affects the reman numbers at all, but I know Mazda also sells the Renesis for other uses besides the RX-8. I know for a fact that there is (or at least was) a stadium truck series that used the 13B-MSP as the spec motor. They are also used in kit planes and helicopters. Whether these ever pass through the reman factory, I have no clue.
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Never heard of a truck series that uses it?
Star Mazda does though.... |
Yeah I posted about a couple years ago in this thread:
https://www.rx8club.com/general-auto...-dirty-211848/ Direct link to the article: How You Can Arrive, Drive and Race a Super Lite Championship Truck – RoadandTrack.com - Road & Track I'm guessing its defunct now though. |
Hmm. Interesting.
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I think the rotory is a generation or two behind, I wanna steal all there info, then go back in time and give it back to them 30 years ago. so the first rx7 had the renisis, etc...
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There was one company that built the engines for the superlite series but I can't remember the name now. But that was a while ago and the series no longer exists since it was not real popular. I imagine some of those engines would eventually end up at the reman plant but they were pretty small numbers so I doubt those numbers were significant. The Star Mazda engines were new engines built for that series, not a standard Renny.
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Gotta love google, a quick search found me this kit plane site:
FAQ's Sorta off topic, sounds like they mostly get them from the junkyard. Q. What horsepower can I expect to get from the Mazda rotary? A. A relatively stock 13B two-rotor engine used in the RX-7 will deliver from 150-200 hp in aircraft service. You may hear stories about 400 hp or more from other sources. When modified, this kind of power can be had for racing and other short duration uses but it has no relevance if you want to fly with this engine. When turbocharged, up to 275 hp could be used for take-off & initial climb but continuous power should be limited to around 170. The exact horsepower you get will depend on your choice of intake systems. A very simple manifold like the one I originally used with three Mikuni motorcycle carbs will produce about 160 hp at 6000 rpm. The somewhat better tuned manifold I now use with the EC2 EFI system produces about 180 hp at the same speed. Construction of this manifold (built from pieces of the stock system) was covered in our newsletter, “Rotary Aviation News.” An optimally tuned manifold will get you close to 200 hp. By using an RD-1C gear drive and increasing engine rpm to 7200, I was able to get about 200 hp for the Sun 100 race in 2004. Exhaust tuning is not as critical as the intake system on the rotary. Any low restriction type system will work adequately. I do recommend a muffler as the exhaust note from the rotary at full song can be un-nerving. I originally built a simple muffler using a 15 inch length of 6 inch diameter pipe which makes my RV-4 quieter that the Lycoming powered version. Details of manifold & exhaust construction are in the conversion guide we publish. All rotary exhaust systems should be constructed from 321 stainless tubing (or better) due to the higher EGT of the rotary. Don’t use the massive (18 pound) cast iron exhaust manifold from the car. Update 7/31/04: I eventually built a tuned header exhaust system and gained about 6 hp and fuel economy improved a bit as well. If you need more than 200 hp, you should look to the Mazda 20B three-rotor engine. These are more expensive and harder to find but they will make 240 to 300 reliable hp when normally aspirated. Update 7/31/04: The availability of the Renesis (RX8) engine provides another option if you need slightly over 200 hp. This the engine I am installing on the RV-4 and I expect around 225 hp. Note! Our power estimates are based on “as installed” test results comparing the rotary powered RV-4 with other RV-4s powered with 150 to 180 hp Lycomings. None of our engines have even been near a dynamometer. BACK TO TOP. Q. What is the highest time on a rotary in aircraft service? A. I have the highest time in an airplane that I know of. (1400+ hours as of 07/31/2004) Jim Mayfield had about 2500 total hours on a rotary powered gyrocopter. BACK TO TOP. Q. How much does the rotary weigh? A. Weight was one of the primary reasons I chose this engine. The only thing that really counts is what the total system with re-drive, cooling systems, engine mount, etc weighs. This is called firewall forward (FWF) weight. In my case, this is about 345 pounds. From my research, it appeared to be the only auto engine available which would equal the weight, power and reliability of the O-320 or O-360 Lycoming. ANY automotive V6 piston engine will be much heavier. Update 7/31/04: By careful attention to details, I have reduced the FWF weight by about 30 lbs in the Renesis installation. Here is the breakdown of system weights in my airplane. This list is a bit out of date because it does not reflect many changes I have made (like the EFI system) but will give you a good idea of what you can expect. Mazda 13B Engine Core 180 lbs. (incl. water pump) RD-1B 42 lbs. Starter (RX-7) 7.5 lbs. Alternator (Mazda 70Amp) 9 lbs. Evaporator Cores (Qty. 2) 7 lbs. (total) Oil Cooler (stock Mazda) 8 lbs. Intake Manifold + fuel rails 8 lbs. Coolant (7 qts.) 14 lbs. Ignition Coil Assys. 2.5 lbs. Total Engine Weight 278 lbs. Exhaust System 8 lbs. Engine Submount 7 lbs. Main Engine Mount (Modified RV-4) 15 lbs. Brackets, Hoses, et. al. 5 lbs. Oil (6 qts.) 12 lbs. Total Installed Weight 325 lbs. (Firewall Forward) BACK TO TOP. Q. What year engine do you recommend? A. Any of the RX-7/RX-8 13B engines from 1986 through 2004 are good. The most abundant models are the years 1986-88 which have parts that are all interchangeable. Most parts are physically the same in later years but rotor and counter weights were slightly lighter and these must be matched up. Either the normally aspirated or turbocharged engine is acceptable. Even if you do not intend to turbo charge you airplane, the turbo model works well when normally aspirated. Mazda still makes the RX-7 but it is no longer sold in the US (after 1996). With the introduction of the RX-8, Mazda introduced a new generation of 13B engines called the RENESIS. IT is now available to us, and we expect 225 hp normally aspirated in aircraft service. BACK TO TOP. |
Yeah, I don't imagine there are a ton of planes flying around with Renesis engines in them. I know I would never get in a Mazda rotary powered air plane.
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I'm still sceptical about your claims and the numbers posted.
None of the members here in So Cal have had their engine replaced that I know of. Maybe one, but there are more than 25 of us. Of course a few have moved on, but their engines never blew. Maybe we know how to REDLINE. |
:lol: Are you serious?
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Yes, we do not have engine failures among the club members.
Jedi is one along with others. I'm not saying there isn't a problem just skeptical. |
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