jwitzer

When 3/4 throttle or better and running through 6300 RPM, my RX-8 seems to lean out or start hesitating (but not badly). From there up, the car seems less eager, less torquey, and less willing to rev.

Kinda feels like an anti-vtec. Rotaries should be happiest up there. My FD really smoothed out and pulled like a locomotive from 5000 to 8500+ (fuel cut-off). The RX-8 seems to give up and say, "I've had enough". It'll run to 8500, but more slowly and with less pull than down low.

Only 700 miles and 2 weeks old, but its done it since new.

Ideas?

bryrx804

https://www.racingbeat.com/RX8%20Break%20in.htm Please read this.. and why are you running it up that high... Give it a break for a few..


Also you might need your CAT replaced. Many have been cloggin in return choaking off exhaust... its underwarrenty.. take it in


And be nice to it for a few miles.. I dont want to start tellin ya what to do.. but many ppl on here will say you shouldnt be rev'in it that high with only 700 miles on it..

Mikelikes2drive

i have no problems up in the higher RPMs actually my car loves it up there like all rotaries do... but i followed the break in procedures so yah...

jwitzer

OK. I read it. It's nothing different than in the manual.

During the first 600 miles (though "No special break-in is necessary") I:

- Didn’t race the engine.
- Didn’t maintain one constant speed for long.
- Didn’t drive constantly at full-throttle or high engine RPM for extended periods of time.
- Avoided unnecessary hard stops.
- Avoided full-throttle starts.

BTW, I'm pretty experienced with rotaries (170,000 miles on an FD) and I know that they usually LOVE to rev. No real power below 5000 RPM and a smooth, strong pull to 8500+. Did this HUNDREDS of time in my FD. Hell, one track day gives 50 laps of Sebring with full throttle from turns 1 to 3, turns 5 (feathered) to the hairpin (at 140), the hairpin to Cunningham Corner, Tower Turn to turn 16, turn 16 all the way down to Sunset Bend (at 170), and Sunset Bend to turn 1 (bump, bump, bump).

Clogged cats, huh? The same thing happened with the 93 FD. The compressor on the second turbo leaked hot oil into the cat, overheating the engine, bursting fuel hoses, and all Mazda did was put in higher temp fuel hoses! But with no turbos, what is clogging cats? And with 1000 miles???

Note that I only rarely run the car that high. The RX-8 actually has more tractable torque from 2000 to 4000 than the FD (even modified) had, so I keep it there most of the time. Sometimes I'll run it to 6500 in 2nd and 3rd when I have an open 3-laner with no traffic ahead of me, but I'm rolling into it, never boom on the throttle. Two or three times since hitting 600 miles, I've allowed 2nd or 3rd to go full throttle to 8000. That's when I discovered the problem, duplicated it to be sure (because it should be safe), and brought it up on the list.

Points noted, and thank you, but without abusing the car, I may have found a problem and I wanted to see if anyone else has experienced it.

jwitzer

According to the manual, no special break-in is necessary, but I:

- Didn’t race the engine.
- Didn’t maintain one constant speed for long.
- Didn’t drive constantly at full-throttle or high engine RPM for extended periods of time.
- Avoided unnecessary hard stops.
- Avoided full-throttle starts.

Quoting myself:

Note that I only rarely run the car that high. The RX-8 actually has more tractable torque from 2000 to 4000 than the FD (even modified) had, so I keep it there most of the time. Sometimes I'll run it to 6500 in 2nd and 3rd when I have an open 3-laner with no traffic ahead of me, but I'm rolling into it, never boom on the throttle. Two or three times since hitting 600 miles, I've allowed 2nd or 3rd to go full throttle to 8000. That's when I discovered the problem, duplicated it to be sure (because it should be safe), and brought it up on the list.

I requested assurance that I had the M-flash. So I guess I'll just wait another 200 miles until 1500 and see...

Xyntax

You just described how I feel about the CZ 1.1 :D

Overport

i dont experience this problem. mine pulls the same all the way up to redline.

rx8cited

Did you miss this part? I know it's really hard to follow these .

"Racing Beat's Guidelines

The Mazda guidelines are reasonable and prudent. If you have any questions or uncertainly regarding the break-in period, we suggest you follow these official recommendations.

We receive many requests for our recommended break-in procedures. The following are Racing Beat's recommendations:

- For the first 1000 miles do not accelerate under full throttle.
- During the first 1000 miles do not exceed 4000 RPM.
- For miles 1000-2000, expand the RPM upwards - but do not accelerate at full throttle.
- Over 2000 miles, full throttle and high RPM is acceptable.

In summary, our guidelines offer a progessive method to increase the working loads placed on the engine."

rx8cited

jwitzer

Mazda owns my car, so I treat it as Mazda wants me to.

Pettit Racing has different guidelines than Racing Beat.

TriPoint has different guidelines than Pettit Racing.

Who do you chose to believe? I chose Mazda. When Pettit built me an engine, I chose their guidelines.

Is anyone claiming that I abused the engine? Because Mazda won't. And Racing Beat calls Mazda's *optional* break-in period "reasonable and prudent".

For the first 600 miles I didn't even hit 4000 RPM and I varied revs and throttle. I've eased into it more since then.

Is anyone claiming that I caused my problem? If so, how? And how can I fix it?

If you want to know how I treat the car, come ride with me for a few days.

Katchoo

Nah...you didn't hurt it. If you had your car would not be going zoom-zoom...it would be going clunk-clunk.

I do not have the answer...but it sounds like an electronics problem, maybe. The dealership will need to scope it out.

BUT...you may want to not press the issue until you are out of the recommended break-in period so the dealership can't give you poopies over the high rpms with only 700 miles on the car. No sense inviting trouble...LOL

gr8rx8

I've had the exact same problem, and I posted the message below on several different threads a couple of months ago. I Never got a single response--other people just kept posting every theory in the book as to what was happening. Guess I'll try one more time to see if someone with this problem gets it solved by taking it to the dealer like I did and getting the flash described below.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ~

I've noticed similar behavior a couple of times when accelerating in 4th: at about 6500-7000 rpm, the engine starts making "knocking" noises and starts losing power. Mazda has evidently noticed it, too. A new PCM reflash called "MSP04" addresses this problem. It was released on 6-2-04, and describes this problem almost exactly. This bulletin is listed on the Rosenthal Mazda website:

http://www.finishlineperformance.co.../01-022-04.html

(The site home is: http://www.finishlineperformance.com/rx8/index.html)

Three weeks ago, I took my car in to get this problem diagnosed because it was starting to worry me. The dealer flashed the PCM with the new MSP04 as part of their standard procedure to perform the latest reflashes and recalls when a customer brings a car in for service. When I picked up the car, the problem was gone and hasn't reappeared, and I've even detected a bit more mid-range torque.

jwitzer

gr8rx8,

Thanks! That describes the problem and applies to my VIN!

gt1

I thought Mazda states break-in is first 600 miles and the other #s (1000, 2000 miles) are recommendations by organizations other than Mazda?

Red-Devil

I had the exact same experience on Friday. I needed to pass some slower traffic and changed down to 4th gear. When she got to about 5000rpm, she also started "knocking" and lost power. I have been reading these threads since I got the car a week ago, so you can imagine my sudden sinking feeling. At that point I just wanted to take the car back and get my money back, especially after all the -ve stuff I had read on this forum.

Any way, I tried it a few times by nursing it firstly in 2nd and 3rd gears up to 6000 the 7000 without going heavy on the gas. I noticed the problem mainly in 4th gear (5th and 6th would have meant seriously breaking the speed limits). After a few times doing this, I noticed it got better.

My guess was that with all the slow driving (<4000rpm), the engine had gotten all carboned up, and that once I had given it some revs a few times, it cleared up. Am I wrong here?

Anyway, the car is going back tomorrow to have the alarm system sorted out and I will have them check if I have the M-flash or not.

Besides all this, I love the car. Fell in love with it the first time I sat in one. I have the Red one, which looks and feels like a million dollars. I wash it every second day, just to keep it looking like the day I took delivery of it. :-)

Razz1

Actually there is something special.

At 6000 to 6300 RPM a blue light reflects off the tac needle.

The blue flash that hits mye eye is a signal to shift for best MPG.
Once again at 7500RPM I get a blue flash signal to shift. If I miss out the beep at 8500 tells me to shift.

I love this car!

I'm 5' 5" so maybe it's my seat height that is causing this phenonom.

This blue flash ( reflection ) only happens on hard acceleration.

Red-Devil

I took my 8 in today to Check alarm system and to see what version of PCM Flash I have. Well, even the service manager had no clue of what I was talking about. By the end of the day I hoped that he would at least be able to tell me which version of flash I had. No such luck. There is no indication of any L or M version on any of the serial numbers. So his answer was that the service bulletin does not apply to Our cars (i.e. South Africa, which has the European, General and Japan model)

So here is my question:

"Does the J,K,L,M flash Issue only apply to USA market RX8's?"

I did the "break dance" test and the oil pres guage sweeps to middle and back, so I figured I have at least an L version. I also find it strange that I would get the exact same problem described in the earlier mentioned service bulletin.

I still feel the hesitation after 6000rpm, particularly going up hill and at 3/4 + throttle, and still get the knocking some times.

What to do next? Any ideas?

jwitzer

Called Mazda service (which is *so* unlike me) to describe the problem. They confirmed that my 3 week old car never got the M-flash and that this should take care of the problem described.

It'll happen Saturday. Then I'll report findings here.

Dalcius

The short story: I seem to be having the same problem! At just over 6000 RPM I get what I would call "rattling" but I imagine that it's the engine knocking (not sure what that would sound like, exactly). The trouble is that my car was manufactured in 06/04 and has a vin number ending in over 40000! The latest flash TSB (here) doesn't include my VIN. I'm around 470 miles on the odo so far, if that helps.

----------------------------------------
Potentially unimportant background:
I picked up the car at 277 miles this Wednesday night; I'm around 470 miles on the odometer now. As I'm learning to drive a manual I've stalled the car a number of times, missed a gear twice, and in general my shifting isn't always smooth but I don't imagine I've done any noticable harm there. I've had a little time on a stick before this car so I'm a little rough, but not jagged.

So far I've been keeping everything under 6K RPM (except as noted below), but I generally shift at 4500-5000K RPM. I don't bury the throttle though occasionally I do like to get up and go: run through gears 1-4, shifting at 6K RPM, about 1/3-1/2 throttle (as memory serves, not 100% familiar with the car yet), then drop to 6th to cruise. My driving has all been in urban areas so my speed doesn't stay constant.
----------------------------------------

Anyway, tonight I was driving and wanted to get up and go a bit, so I started shifting up through the gearbox, shifting around 5500-6100 RPM. While in 4th I wasn't watching the tach close enough and went up to around 6300 RPM. At this point I noticed what I would describe as a "rattle" but I imagine is knocking from the engine.

To test, I repeated this a few times to ensure I wasn't crazy and to get a feel for where it was coming from (I didn't realize it was probably the engine, it sounds like it's coming from the front right, not front center). It only happens between 6100 and 6400 RPM (tested up to 7000 once very quickly), and from what I've seen only in 4th and 5th gear (5th @ 6000 is crazy enough).

Am I missing something with the M-Flash? My build date is 6/04 and last 5 of vin are roughly 40600. I'm taking it to the dealer to get an accessory installed that I pushed them to throw into the deal so I'll have a chance to ask then. Any suggestions?

Thanks so much folks, I absolutely love this car but am worried to death that this is going to be a headache.

Red Devil

Dalcius, you should wait until your engine is broken in before jumping the gun. Reason being, the 6300 "rattle" is undoubtedly the intake runners changing over for the high rpm driving, which I believe occurs at that rpm. And if you're VIN is over 40K, then it will have been built at the factory with the M Flash equipped.

8is>enuff

I really expected Zoom to pop up in here and tell everybody to read the s-dais thread. :D
Dalcius, read this - https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.p...ghlight=s-dais

Dalcius

Thanks for the link, 8is>enuff. I read the whole thread and now understand what's going on around 6000 RPM, but I really can't believe that it's a normal sound.

I'm going in for service on Sat. and will get the dealer to check, but so far I don't have much of a grasp on what the root cause could be.

Dalcius

I've gone through multiple threads on this issue. I'll check for exhaust rattle but I refuse to believe that this is normal -- it sounds like what you'd hear if a loose bolt were lying around in your engine bay and your car was vibrating something fierce, but of course it's muffled from inside the cab. How the hell can that be valves opening, it's more than just a few 'rattles', if it wasn't only at ~6200 RPM I would think it was something loose under the hood.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I'm really worried over this.

Dalcius

I just got back from lunch with a coworker (who was previously a car salesman). I reproduced the noise once more and he said it sounded like pre-detonation to him. He also made the comment that his dealership as a default rule didn't put premium gas in their cars, though there might have been an exception for sports cars.

So, I'm thinking that it might be just that. The noise isn't happening below 4th gear, but that would be due to speed. At such a high speed, when the tertiary ports open at ~6200 RPM, the sudden rush of air drops the F/A ratio and the fuel is more likely to predetonate (more oxygen). My coworker agreed and suggested that a certain model that he sold had the same type of problem when running on low octane gas. Does this sound like a fair assessment?

Did anyone here pick up their car from the dealer with 87 octane put in (either you figured it out or they told you)? I haven't put any gas in this thing myself, I'm about to fill up after work and I'll update with the results.

Cheers

zoom44

for some reason i have missed this thread and was just about to do that very thing when i saw your post- im glad someone else is out there who has my back oh right! i was at 7stock thru most of this thread

yes crappy or low octane gas can indeed cause knock in that situation. but you can defiinetly feel the pcm kick into "save the engine" mode when the knock sensor detects something. it slaps timing retard in quick and it feels almost like hitting the rev limiter. it would also throw a CEL. if the knock was bad enough it might throw a blinking cell and leave you in "limp to the dealer" mode.

another thing to take into consideration is engine temp- when the engine is cold or over normal operating temp(learned of the over temp part this weekend) the pcm reduces power by cutting down on the fuel thru the injectors and retarding timing. this is also starts at around 6k rpm. this function is less intrusive then the knock sensor actions and could also be what you are noticing.

zoom44

oh and RED- DEVIL you are in South Africa right? you should put that in your info so we can better help you. i believe in that country from what i read elsewhere that our M is your G. and what you really want your dealership to do is just bring you up to the most current PCM calibration. in order to do that the WDS machine that they perform the flashings with must be at its most current calibration level or it wont have the correct PCM calibration for you.