TALAN7

I think too much zoom zoomin with kids in the back seat sends a bad message. What parent races their car with their children in the back seat. When you start to bring family into the equation, safety becomes the number 1 concern.

missinmahseven

This post is nicer than your original post. But calling the Miata a girly car is still going to get you some reactions. I drove one for ten years. Never wanted more HP. Never felt myself being less hombre for driving such a 'girly car'. And I heared it from many.. "Why that and not a Camaro / TransAm / Eclipse?" BECAUSE IT DRIVES BETTER, FEELS BETTER!

"These days performance cars are in?" Bull. They've always been "in". In the 70's you saw 10 GTOs for every Triumph TR-6. American tastes haven't changed one bit from then.

The reason I gave you so much s*it over your previous post is still illustrated in this one: Calling the Miata "Girly" and the 8 "underpowered". A sign that you, like many others in America, treasure power over all other factors. "Not enough performance for me". That's why I gave you ****. I *used* to feel like that, and I got over it real fast after a few rides in a 1-st gen Rx-7.. all 101 horses of it.

As for comparing Mazda to Porsche, why not? You don't think an Rx-8 could do battle with a Boxter, both piloted by skilled pilots, and come out on top? I think it can. The 911 is out-of-reach.. but look then at the stickers. 30 for the 8, 60 for the Boxter, 80+ for the 911. Competetive and then some.

This is a forum, true. It's open to one and all, true. It should be, imo, primarily for those who own, enjoy and / or desire this car. In time I hope it becomes like miata.net, a vast depository of knowledge about one car, where you can go find any bit of info, no matter how arcane.

I'm just TIRED TIRED TIRED of people flapping their lips about how horribly underpowered the 8 is. Pure bovine excrement! I'm TIRED of all this bowing down to the mighty timeslip and dyno numbers. So sure, come here and vent your view.. you're gonna get views vented right back at you.

So here's MY view: The 8 is NOT underpowered, it's Just Right. Much more HP would make it tail-happy coming out of corners. It would be more expensive to insure. It would drink even MORE gas.

The guy credited with creating the miata has a very interesting .sig. "If you can't go fast with 90 hp, 900 hp won't help you"

So one question: Do you see the logic in his sig? If you don't, you've proven what I said in my original response to you, and again in this one.

The funny thing is, I think the 8 is faster than a scalded cat.. provided the revs are 5000 and above. :D

zoom44

i feel quite at ease comparing the rx-8 to a porshe. after all some porsche engineers have done so. it has been reported that one porshe engineer was overheard sayingto some co-workers,with them in agreement, "the rx-8 is what we should have made instead of the cayenne". why argue with them?

Nubo

That must be Bob Hall.

You can read more of his wit and wisdom at "Ask Bob", still online on Miata.net:

http://miata.net/askbob/

Here's a sample that fits into this thread

great stuff.

Hyperborea

I would definitely compare the RX-8 with Porsches. I test drove a lot of the competition (all the usual suspects plus others - Mini, SE-R SpecV, etc) and the RX-8 was the best handling of all of them. The other car that I compared it against and that most other purchasers probably didn't was a Porsche 968. My last car was a Porsche 944 Turbo (951) and the original plans were to just step along to a newer model. The RX-8 handles as well as those (968, 951, and RX-8 are in the same SCCA autocross class - B stock) and the performance is similar with the added benefit of being a lot newer. The hope is that I'll spend less time keeping the car running and more time driving or doing jobs around the house (depending on whether you ask me or my wife :p ).

It will be interesting to compare the RX-8 to the Cayman once those arrive.

JeRKy 8 Owner

I think what annoys people about the RX-8 is that the power is delivered too smoothly for their tastes. They are all expecting some torquey beast of an engine to throw their heads back into the seat like the rest of them do when they gun the bitch. But that enormous surge of power they're all looking for isn't there unless you're downshifting into 2nd from 40+ mph (or maybe even 1st for you brutal bastards out there).

I can see why many wouldn't enjoy this type of power delivery, and just end up walking away from the car scratching their heads.

Too bad.

Ike

Lots of posts to reply to since I left for work so just going to list some thoughts...

1.) Those 1/4 mile times are great and all but I know of one maybe two people on this forum that have come close. The early red car that was tested by C&D and all the other mags was in fact a pre production car and was prior to the ECU change when the car had to meet US emissions. The cars tested after that which achieved mid 14s were IMO either stronger cars or were ringers supplied by Mazda. I have no basis for syaing that, but it would not be the first time a manufacturer has done it to make the numbers what they want them to be.

Also, most of the times for the other cars have been equaled or bettered by at least a few owners in their stock cars. The RX-8 on the other hand runs high 14s and low 15s in the hands of its owners 99% of the time. I've seen no less than 3, possibly as many as 5, at the track in person and have yet to see one break into the 14s. Please note, I'm in no way slamming the RX-8, just stating what I've seen and what I know while making some wild speculations.

2.) The guys with the turbos aren't exactly setting any speed records but they claim that the midrange is so much stronger and that the car feels much faster yet at the track most have run low 14s. I'm not saying the RX-8 needed some obscene amount of power to not feel underpowered for ME. Getting it near that low 14 mark and it having around 200whp would have been enough I think. That 200whp is where it actually should be given the rating at the crank, especially the original rating. No I'm not just going by some numbers on paper, I'm going by what I felt while driving the car and taking a guess as to what would have made it feel better.

3.) I have test driven the RX-8 twice, so those of you in this thread thinking I need to go out and drive one I have done so. No it's not extensive but it was enough to get a decent feel for what the car is capable of.

4.) Miatas are fun to drive, RX-8s are fun to drive, but mostly on a track or a very twisty road. At the same time while they are fun my modded DSM and the car I did most of my early track days on, a slightly modded E36 M3, are cars that I had more fun driving on a real track than the spec Miata I drove a couple times right after my DSM. This was on a real track, an autox track I may feel differently.

In my daily commute a car with more power is more beneficial and more fun than a car that has higher handling limits. That doesn't mean that I don't appreciate great handling cars, but when it comes to my daily driver I'll take more power with good handling over a car with less power and great handling any day. If I'm going to the track I'll take my 125cc shifter kart over anything I've just mentioned and beat them in every aspect, most importantly fun. The shifter kart prettymuch destroys any street car when it comes to fun, handling, and acceleration on a track.

Side note: If I lived in an area with twisty mountain roads I might feel differently. But if that were the case I probably would have gotten an Evo, STi, or S2K long ago or maybe even a used Boxter. IMO miatas are for people that can't afford S2Ks or Boxters <awaits the flames>. Miatas and RX-8s are great in the turns, but when it comes to a straight I feel like I should have a hole in the floor to put my feet down and go Fred Flintstone style (not so much with the RX-8, it's not THAT underpowered).

5.) This whole the RX-8 can keep up with an M3 around a track stuff is getting old. Just because one show came up with the same time for the two cars doesn't mean it's the norm. Keep in mind a CSL in the wet ran nearly 3 seconds better than the other M3 they tested. I can guarantee you the CSL is not that much faster than the regular MT M3. If anyone in the midwest would like to test this out let me know, I'm sure I can find someone in the BMW club I used to do trackdays with at Blackhawk Farms. I'll even put money on it if that makes it worth your while.

6.) Darkmaz, the orginal Miata was such a great selling car because it was in a class by itself. It was a fun to drive vert that was light and tossable, and cute as well as realible. It had a pretty widereaching demographic, a good portion of that demographic including females and men a little light in the loafers whether anyone else wants to admit to that or not. I've personally been friends with or some aquaitance to 7 Miata owners, 2 were gay, 3 were females, one was an older couple, and one was the spec Miata owner that used it mostly for track days. Only one of the 7 people that I knew that owned those cars could care less how it handled. Not a huge sample but it's simply my experience.

7.) You guys comparing the RX-8 to a Boxter I doubt have ever driven a Boxter. The Porsche is a better car from a pure driving standpoint, yet the Boxter is critisized for being gutless and not a real Porsche by many people because it's not that fast. Sound familiar?

8.) You guys saying that Mazda hasn't marketed the RX-8 properly are probably correct. I don't think many people realize that the backseat is usable, or that they can be had for around 25k and assume they're more expensive than they really are due to their more radical looks. At the same time they don't realize the abysmal gas mileage and higher maintenance of the rotary engine. Right now fuel efficiency is a big deal, having a car that drives great in all seasons is important (hence more AWD cars coming to market every year). People don't want to worry about having to change tires for the seasons, or checking their oil all the time, our society is going towards wanting less hassle and more user friendly products more and more every day.

9.) When it comes down to it none of what I said really matters if you're happy with your car and you know you made the right choice. The RX-8 is better for you, the WRX is better for me, and the 350Z, G35C, or Miata is better for someone else. It's great that we have the choices and I think any true enthusiast can appreciate each of these cars for what they are. Unfortunately right now it's looking like not many people think the RX-8 is right for them.

MazdaRich

The RX-8 actually CAN keep up with a Boxster or a M3 at a track-they are very close in performance. The non-S Boxster is actually a little slower than the RX-8. The M3 is probably a little quicker. The RX-8 can run circles around a stock WRX--is that what the issue is?

Hyperborea

No flames but a correction. It's not just for people who can't afford a Boxster but those who don't want to spend the money for one. I can buy a new 911 if I want to but I didn't because I have other plans and goals - my life isn't just about buying or owning a car. There's a big difference.

You do know the nickname of the Subies don't you? They're not called Lesbarus for nothing.

Driven them - original ones, new ones, Boxster S. The non-S ones would be bested by my old 944 Turbo and the non-S and the 968 are probably comparable. At one time the 944 Turbo was the fastest production car in the world. Yes, technology has gotten better and we can make them go faster and accelerate faster but at some point it becomes pointless.

This is after all what really matters unless one is so insecure that they buy a car to impress other people or try to project an image of wealth or success with their leveraged to the hilt car and lifestyle.

Ike

I can understand that and there are cars that I could afford right now that I'd like to have but it's just not the "smart" thing to do.


No qualms with that, lesbians love their Subaru Outbacks (no clue why but it's a stereotype that's damn true) :p I'd say overall they could care less about the performance models.


Sorry but you're wrong, in 1988 the Turbo S was the fastest 4 cylinder production car in the world not just plain production car. It's skidpad and slalom numbers from the time are now bested by such goliaths as the Saturn Ion Redline. The 944 Turbo S was a very impressive car, was being a key word there. I'd still take one in a heartbeat, if someone else was willing to foot the repair bill... Going faster may become pointless at some point, but I have yet to find that point :D

rx8wannahave

Well Ike…because only a few of the 8 owners have hit those numbers from this website does not mean it's the STANDARD or NORMAL thing. I would check out that drag times website which shows the 8 can hit those numbers normally while of course (as with all cars) there are some slower for one reason or another.

Again…I still have to disagree with you because I can say that about about every single test in the mags from each and ever car company. How can we confirm it's a hyped factory car or pre-production? Why the heck would the mag (a year after the car came out on sale) still run tests on a pre-production model? If that's the case then every test comes into question and the mag's can not be trusted at all. If so...then they are just a marketing tool for the car companies. So…not fighting here, but I disagree with you on that assumption.

Again…some cars are faster than others…some drivers are better than others…etc etc etc

Who is to say they did not power shift their cars so that their forum buddies could be impressed? Does a "few" runs that better the mag times = the norm? I think at times you unfairly place more value on the times of other cars/drivers than you do with the 8. You give reasons but the door stays open that those very reasons you give can be used with your times or from where you get your data.

Again…not fighting with you or anything, just talking…

How do you justify saying something like that? Have you seen 99% of the test? Mag after mag get’s the 8 into the 14.5’s and a few owners here have done it also. If you check the drag times website (please can someone give me the link) you will see (if I remember right) that the “99%” thing is outrageously out of wack…lol. :0)

Are you sure they were not automatics? Are you sure they were not bad take off’s? Bad drivers? Like the mpg thing with the RX8 (for me at least) I hope to debunk the 15+ ¼ mile times stuff I hear here. I can’t wait to hit 10-15K so I can take my bone stock 8 to a track and see what it can do. I have virtually no experience at a track/speed test but I hope one day I can mail you a card with a video, pictures, time slips, and a written letter from the track people there that I got 14.5…lol :0)

Note: You have alot more track experiance than I do so your car BS radar might be better tuned than mine...so remember that I don't disregard your car talk as if you just hate the 8 or something.

You never know…maybe you will prove to be right and if that’s the case I wont be afraid to say it either…the truth is the truth, period.

I understand that and I would never think that a car that is about 1 to 1+ sec faster in 0-60 & ¼ mile than the RX8 could run around a track at the same pace. But again please don’t discount when the 8 does things like that…it’s as if you give tests value based on if it agrees with your general opinion or not.

If it agrees with Ike…then it’s solid information
If it disagrees with Ike…then it’s a hyped up RX8, pre-production 8, a super driver…or GOD was pushing the 8 around with his finger…lol

Remember I said seems…based on your many comments here. Again…it “seems”

You know that some of the 8 drivers tend to be a little blind to the failings of our cars and I truly think you normally bring those people back to earth. I don’t call for your head or ask you to leave…frankly I’m glad you’re here to help us…”keep it real” lol…

The 8 with 50 more HP along with torque would be, in my opinion…at that price, pretty much the best dang sports car out there regarding bang for the buck. As it is now it’s fast enough, rides pretty good, has nice space and comfort inside, and is a balanced and very good handling sports car.

Well...19mpg avg for the life of my RX8 which has 3.7K in the city is fine by me but there are those getting nasty fuel economy and I’m one of those people that almost gave up on the 8 because of the fuel economy.

But…I understand what you are saying...

That’s right…any true enthusiast can appreciate each of those cars, AMEN to that! I hope Mazda starts advertising the 8 more and sales pick up because if Mazda kills it (while my car will be rare) this might be the last attempt at the rotary and I DO NOT WANT THAT!!!

It's as if Ford told Mazda...it better sell X amount of 8's or else this will be the last rotary. Since this year the sales have been nasty FORD might be telling Mazda not to put too much more effort into it because on X day they wont make anymore 8's.

That's it...I'm sending a letter to Mazda, lol...

rx8wannahave

OK...maybe, but at least it's not a kid driving around in a Vette...lol

missinmahseven

Remember the old Cayenne ad from Porsche? Little kid playing with his food as if the fork were a car and the mashed potatos were the road, , dad corrects him, kid says "I know" then the cut to the dad driving the Cayenne with Jr. strapped in the back seat, big SEG on his face as daddy flogs the big porsche through the corners?

Or was that too irresponsible of Porsche?

Mazda needs a better ad agency. Quickly.

Even the Mini "MotorMate" ads make sense to me, but the Mazda ads leave me scratching my head sometimes...

G-Face was priceless. :D That's the same spirit as the 8, why can't Mazda's ad agency show that spirit as clearly as the Mini's ad agency? </rant>

Design1stCode2nd

It can be done without seeming reckless. And if you think that all parents are only concerned about saftey then we would all drive volvos.

What it expresses is you can have a family and a sports car as your main transportaion, the two are not mutally exclusive. This is also something that is unique to teh RX-8 as all teh rest that can do it look like sport sedans not coupes.

Matt RX8

I agree with you 100%. The RX-8 is an absolute blast for a track car, especially considering an M3 costs 2 times as much and an NSX costs over 3 times as much.

And to whoever posted the Bob Hall quote, that stuff is priceless... :D

rx8wannahave

Yeah I know...I wonder what a rotary SUPER CAR could do? Hmmmm....

Maybe Mazda should come out with a 3-rotor RX-7 to compete with the Vette, GT500, and every other SUPER CAR out there.

$50,000 450HP 2800 pounds....of a Halo car for Mazda bringing back the classic name of RX-7

Note: I know price is what hurt the RX-7 but build it in limited numbers expecting limited sales...just to be the halo for Mazda and the rotary engine!

TALAN7

Mazda doesn't really know how to market the 8. I work in advertising and what the client does a lot of the time is tell the ad agency that they have to market too many aspects of a product when we always tell them to find 1 or 2 key messages to points. Where does this car fit in. Do you market it soley as a performance car? A 4 door practical car? Do you talk about the rotary engine.? They need to find the key driver that will sell the vehicle. The Z has its built in market. It's a macho car. So is the Mustang. It may be that the 8 does too many things well. What do you focus on? The easiest thing for a performance car to hang its hat on is big power, cause that sells. The Mini was built for its market, it's not a big power car but it's getting sold. I think the biggest problem with the RX8 was that when it first came out, all the mags were comparing it to the Z, S200, G35 coupe, Mustang, all big power cars for the most part. It can hang but when compared with those cars, most people will see the weakness of the 8. Compare it against anything else and it's fine. The fact that it wins a lot of comparisons is a testament to how good a car it is in everything but power (compared with those cars) not power in general.

missinmahseven

Scene 1: A Miata flying down a tight, twisty road, 2 people in the car. You see headlights in the distance, behind the MIata. (Or how about a de-badged Boxter instead of a Miata? Just to rub in some salt... ) (10 seconds)

Scene 2: The headlights get close, an Rx-8 with blacked-out windows catches up to, and passes the Miata (Boxter?!) while making the most delightful noises that only a Wankel can make (gotta play on that, Porsche sure does emphasize the sound of that beautiful flat-six in their ads!) (5 seconds)

Scene 3: Both the Miata (Boxter?) and Rx-8 arrive at the same location. Two people get out of the roadster. The 8 is shown with a dramatic, low-angle shot from the front. Front doors fling open, suicide doors fling open, the rear pax (all gorgeous, of course) get out, front pax get out. Or, in lieu of gorgeous seatcovers, and more in keeping with the 8's intended target (Gen-Xrs with kids?) have the two kids pop out of the back, and Mom and Dad from the front. All occupants, of course, with BSEGs plastered on their faces. (15 seconds)

Voiceover. "A Sports Car Like No Other. With room for four. The Mazda Rx-8. The Sports Car for Real-World People."

HOw'd that fly? Would it instantly signal the folks out in Middle America who have a sports-car itch to scratch that This is The One? The one the missus won't kill you for getting?

I still say the "G-Face" ad for Mini was the best sports car ad I've yet seen. :D :D :D

MazdaRich

The 911 has a backseat too, but that isn't it's main selling point. Same for a Mustang. Trying to market this car as some kind of family sedan would turn me off, since I don't even need the back seat (although it has its advantages.)

missinmahseven

If you're referring to my previous post, I don't think that was sedan-like in any way shape or form. Overtaking a roadster in its element, a twisting road? Let's try that in a 6. Or a Camry. Or any other snooze-me-too-mobile. Make sure you get a very tight shot of the panicked faces of the passengers as the front end washes away and they head straight for the guardrail. :D

Naw. Showing it as I wrote it, I think, would get the point across: It's a four-hole sports car. Weird? Perverted? Yup. A four-hole sports car. Deal with it. That's the message I'd try to get across.

Design1stCode2nd

That's just it you don't market as a family sedan. There is a larger market out there that would like to carry for passengers or at least the opportunity for four passengers. Two seaters typically have limted runs because they are a super niche car. The 8 is not that car.

A commercial could as easily be four young adults hitting the clubs. OR two guys pulling up to a club and two hot girls say "Ohh nice car" and then they get in the car. Two guys in a 350z? Oh sorry no room for the ladies, let the sausagefest continue.

The 8 is a sports coupe with versatility. I think even if you lost the crowd that doesn't need/want 4 seats it would be more than made up with the crowd who does. It would also increase the longevity of the vehicle because it has practical applications.

RedSheDevil

My .02:

Most of the reason I got mine was for the unique-ness of it. I don't want everyone and their dogs to own one. I think most of us on here feel that way... I didn't buy this car for the "mass appeal" of it...just the opposite.

I say let Mazda fuddle around with their non-marketing of this car. Fine with me. Let me thumb my nose at mainstream as long as I can. Let me keep my mystery...I can't tell you how happy it makes me when people ask, "WOW, what kind of car is THAT?"

And if the marketing ever went the "family sedan" route, I'd probably sell her. Sure, it's great to have the option of hauling more pax, but I sure don't advertise it. It's kinda like our secret....just like the squealing brakes....we don't talk about it to non-8ers

Design1stCode2nd

I can understand you feelings on keeping the 8 unique. I wanted to do as much with my Murano. Mazda of course would have a different perspective as well as Mazda dealers.

Nubo

Absolutely. But, you might be able to switch it effectively --

Aerial shot of RX8 tearing up the twisties on a track. Break to quick shots of the 8 zooming by, doppler effect as it approaches the camera and accelerates out of a turn. A gloved hand working the gearbox. Car flashes past the finish line (ahead of a couple of other makes). Some excited kids run across the pavement to the parked RX-8. Driver gets out with the helmet still on... Kid1: "Wow, that was great!!" Kid2: "You ROCK!". Driver takes off the helmet... and shakes out her long hair. Kid3: "Way to go, Mom!". Voiceover (while we get a 360 wraparound of the car): "The Mazda RX-8 Doesn't take a back seat in sportscar performance." Mom (putting her helmet in the trunk): "C'mon Kids, we gotta get home." -- we watch as all 4 of them get in via the suicide doors, buckle up and get on their way in no time. Car pulls out of the lot as we hear the smallest kid: "zoom-zoom!". Voiceover (as they enter traffic) "It DOES, however, have back seats. Come in and test-drive the worlds ONLY 4-seat sports car. At your Mazda Dealer.

wedge357

Hey I got the same...