cleoent

that's incorrect.


Not in response to the above quote:

A lot of you have no business giving someone driving tips, i can't believe the nonsense i'm reading. (No offense to those of you who know what you're talking about, and you know who you are).

Dragonrider

Remember the conditions in this case. 85 MPH hard left and hard braking.

ABS, DSC, and all the other electronic aids are just that aides. They have them on most all the Formula 1 cars and every now and then during every race, one of the drivers pushes the cars a little two hard and the tires break loose and the car spins, or the brakes lock and flat spot the tires.

Funny, I watched the worlds best Formula 1 Driver Michael Shoemaker (sic) spin his F1 at less that 60MPH.

Those of you who think the electronic driving aides make up for skill and experience in car handling think again. They do aide but that is all they will do.

One of the individuals on this topic thinks that race instructors have it wrong. The individual seems to feel the instructors teaching that the dynamics of traction make it so that you can only do one of the three actions at a time, that is acceleration, slow down or stop, or turn, is “wrong.” This individual seems to think that you can actually make a hard turn, brake at say 85 miles and hour, and avoid a spin. So what do the driving instructors know. Let’s remember the conditions of this topic. (I realize he qualified it vaguely)

In advanced high speed instruction, advanced drivers are taught the technique of using 100% of traction and splitting it between braking and turning and acceleration and turning by fading breaks off into a turn and fade acceleration in on the exist, but that is for advanced performance drivers, not for someone who so new to performance cars they barley know where the throttle and brake are. Once you go 1% over the 100% mark you will lose traction and thus control. If the pros have a challenge with the advanced technical and spin out from time to time what to you think a very green novice with no performance instruction at all would do.

We were all there at one time so no offence is intended.

Having knowledge is good, but when it is not combined with wisdom you have a potential for danger. Knowing the advanced techniques of fading off the brakes while entering a corner and fading on the acceleration exiting a corner is great, but asserting that the basic rule of traction dynamics for a beginner is wrong or mis-information, is the height of irresponsible arrogance and immaturity.

lurch519 you are not only wrong you are dangerously wrong.

I still maintain that investing in performance driving instruction will not only help everyone better handle their RX8s but enjoy them even more. :D

Chrisbert

Check your tires for flatspotting. The stock ones suck anyway.

KYLiquid

the TC (traction control) system in formula1 cars DOES NOT work at speeds below 100kph (62mph). This rule was set into place at the same time they banned the LC (launch control) systems from the car. The reason for banning LC was simple, give the advantage to the better driver, not the team with the most money for a high-tech LC system (Ferrari ) The reason the TC was set to not work below 100kph is so that it couldnt be used as some form of LC. If the F1 car is below 100kph its just the driver, tires and LSD (limited slip differential). That is why most of the time when you see F1 cars spin out it is at lower speeds, thru a corner under braking.

Glad you and the car is ok, as well as the deer. everyone made it out alive!

My advice, and something I would recomend to most drivers on public roads (cause you never know what Joe Average is gonna do in an emergency) is to just get on the brakes as hard as you can if something happens in front of you. Just like drivers ed, simple....check behind you and jam on the brakes. If you try to brake and duck left, and the guy to the left of you tries to brake and duck right, BAM, side collision (and id much rather get hit in the front or rear than the side any day).

Some might disagree, but just getting on the brakes is simple and in the worst case (you hit something) your going at the slowest possible speed you could, given the warning you had.

Sure its nice to try an avoid an accident, but Id rather survive and HAVE and accident than die or injure someone else.

EDIT : forgot to add something in response to the 2nd line of the quote.

its true that all the fancy systems (ABS, TCS, DSC, ect.) are all just to help a driver and will never (at least not anytime soon) replace the need for a driver. They are there to help you. I will say this though... In the new Ferrari F430 there is the most advanced driver aids of any car ever made (aside from some race cars). It has many settings from all the systems on maximum to none of the systems off. I watch a car review where a touring car driver was taking the car around the Ferrari test track. He would do a few laps, then pit, then a few laps, then pit...ect. Each time he came into the pits, the would slowly change the ECU modes and relax the driver aids a little more. He found that the car in RACE mode, allowed him to get nearly the same time in the car that the Ferrari test track driver got. When he turned off all the systems completly he was a few seconds slower, and closer to his time with all the systems fully on (ICE mode I think it was). The Lap record for the car, as set by the test driver was with all the systems off. Sure that guys drives the car a lot more...but my point is even with a race car driver, some help can make you a better (faster in this case) driver vs no help. Although this again proves the point in that YOU have to make good choices and drive well, because if he had gone into a left hand turn, and turned right and hit the gas.....he wouldnt have made the turn....you have to understand how the car will react and drive accordingly.

RotaryIT

It is amazing the amount of information that is so poorly translated, or just simply pounced on for being POTENTIALLY incorrect. No need to break down why he was doing 85mph, or why the deer ran out in the road, or to even question whether or not he's telling the truth.

With that said, I will say what everyone should have said first, and many did...Glad your ok, for you and your car.

Next....ABS is not a straight line stopping enhancement. It hurts straightl ine braking performance. The point of ABS is to keep the front wheels turning duriong braking to allow for some amount of control. I also believe that the ABS pump is electric, and should have remained active even if the car stalled. For anyone that thinks that it is better in a straight line, tell me how applying and releasing the brakes 50 times a second stops you faster? Its a trade off, distance for control.

TCS would have down you know good on it's own. If used as a part of DSC, then I am not sure what the system would have done off hand. I have seen video of Best Motoring, peforming DSC testing on a wet track and with or without DSC the car still spun...not as abruptly as with the DSC off, but still spun.

We can all hypothasize as to what would have, could have or should have happened, but without knowing what steering inputs went in after the initial swerve to the left, I couldn't say. If it was a hard to the left only, then DSC or not, the rear would probably step out with or without braking, especially at 85mph. If he swerved left, then right, it might have saved the spin. If there was no countersteering, then he is lucky he spun. That is what kept him off the wall.

jayk

Fully agree...

Semi agree... ABS helps in a straight line because tires stop better on the edge of traction (theshold braking) than they do once they are locked. ABS is only active in the event that your brakes overcome the traction of your wheels and your wheels lock. So it shouldn't impact braking performance except for helping should your brakes overcome the traction of your wheels.

jayk

Well yeah, in this case, ABS couldn't do much of anything and in my opinion probably never came into play. Just getting on the brakes at 85 and turning will cause enough weight shift to spin the car without the wheels ever locking.

But, ABS does work in a corner and that is its primary purpose, it just didn't work in -this- corner.

oreo

He was lucky, plain and simple,
Some accidents are unavoidable, some accidents are avoidable, and some are proveked. In his case I would say that his accident was unavoidable but that he was lucky enogh to not hit anything.

On the ABS question, I have DSC on mine and have driven it on the track both with the DSC on and off. (note: the ABS can't be turned off at all). The DSC would have prevented him from spinning (it modulates throtle and break to keep the car straight) meaning that technicaly it would have taken his foot off the break for a second and give the rear a little more traction. Now depending on his reaction to this violent surge to the left he might have corrected and kept on , needing a new set of pants, or made a verry sharp turn to the left and ended up in a front colission with the guard rail.

After thinking about it, spinning out wasn't such a bad thing.

Anyway the most important thing is that he is ok and that he learned from the experiance. He will probably want to learn more and practice on a deffensive driving school wich would make him a better and safer driver. (Yes defensive driving) it will give you all the break and turning abilities without the go-fast focus of a race driving school.

Dragonrider

Not everyone needs to learn how to go fast, but we all should learn the basic principals afforded in the performance schools. It would help us all be better at handling our cars. Maybe even safer drivers.

Hard 8

I was discussing ABS with an accident investigator a while ago, and even though I have a fair amount of track experience and instruction, etc., I had never registered before what he told me: Most people think that ABS is designed to reduce straight-line stopping distances and skidding/brake locking. But in reality, its purpose is, as people have already said above, to retain more STEERING control under braking.

To elaborate on this point, which I don't think anyone has directly said above, the point of ABS is to help in situations like the deer problem here: You can apply full braking AND steer around an obstacle.

Instead of firewalling the brakes and closing one's eyes and hoping for the best, a driver may stand on the brakes and gently steer around whatever he wants to miss. Most drivers don't realize this about ABS, so they never exploit its potential for safety.

I think that in the deer situation here, the driver steered too abruptly for the ABS to have allowed him to stay in control, but by saying this I am NOT saying he necessarily did the wrong thing. I wasn't there, and cranking the wheel as hard as he did may have been the only way around the animal. I'm simply saying that the car will spin if you crank the wheel hard enough at speed, especially under hard braking, which is what happened here.

Anyway, I just wanted to correct some of the statements above, to the effect that ABS is only for braking in a straight line. It's actually designed to help in NON-straight line braking, although it cannot save you in all cases, as we see here.

I have been meaning to practice this technique in an empty parking lot, but have not yet had a chance.

KYLiquid

the way ive tested this and other things, such as DCS/TCS is to find an open parkinglot, mall on sunday morning, ect.

Setup a cone gate so that its staggered you can do 1 gate, or multiple.

^^^^^___________^^^^^^

you would want to line yourself up with one side of the gate, so that it forms a wall of cones infront of you. Drive at it, start off with a moderate speed, say 30mph. At the last possible moment hit the brakes hard and try to drive thru the opening in the cones (the under score ____ ). It can be fun and also show you how much room the car has under braking at XXX speed. Its better if you can test it with a car with no abs and a car with abs...back to back to see the difference. you can also set up more than one gate. give a good ammount of space bettween them, then you can up the speed a bit.

^^^^^^^___________^^^^^^^^




_________^^^^^^^^^




^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^__________

just as an example....get creative. Its a lot of fun, and you learn something!

Hard 8

That sounds really cool. Did you go out and buy a bunch of cones somewhere?

KYLiquid

i first went to a sporting good store and was looking to buy some, but the ones they had were the small 8" tall plastic ones....i had a feeling those could do some damage to the car, and break if i ran them over. So i talked to my work and borrowed some of our cones over the weekend, the 18" high orange rubber ones. Just like autoX if you brush up against them they can leave a streak on the paint....but its just like when a rubber sole shoe leaves a mark on a tile floor, it comes off pretty easy. If you run them over they usualy just come out the back after a big of draging.

Another option would be styrafoam blocks, you can get them at packing supply stores or homedepot (i think). You could also use chalk....basicaly anything that you can clearly see as your coming up on it, but that wont hurt the car if you hit it.

Ive also seen balloons used (put a little sand or some coins in them, then blow them up.

Hard 8

Cool. My kids have those huge colored chalk sticks. Interesting to try it in the rain, too.

StewC625

Too damn fast for conditions. 85 mph in the dark is always too fast.

StealthFox

i totally agree with this guy. after reading this whole thread i think he did the best possible thing he could do considering his skill level, and the most probably situation based on his description.

RedSheDevil

CN, just stating once again Im sure we are ALL happy you are ok!

:ducks outta the room under the flying objects being thrown:

legokcen

I'm gld you are ok.

Slamming on the brakes should only occur when the stearing is straight. Lesson 1 in high performance driving school. Take a look at the traction circle.

I'm sure it was a situation where it was unaviodable though.

Nubo

That's a good approach to begin with. Your most important goal when the outcome is uncertain is to reduce the energy of impact. A 10mph head-on crash is a lot better than spinning and slamming into something sideways at 50mph. Bringing speed down as task 1 gives you more time for further action. You may well be able to steer around with minor steering inputs once the closing rate has been lessened.

Nubo

Absolutely false! ABS was first developed for aircraft -- to maximize braking in a straight line when landing.

The brake pressure is modulated to avoid skidding the tire. Once a tire begins to skid, you are actually riding on a surface of molten rubber ("reverted rubber"), which serves as a lubricant between the tire and the road. ABS maximizes braking power by keeping the braking force as high as possible without skidding. Those 50 times per second aren't simply on/off/on/off -- brake force is kept as high as possible while monitoring tire rotation speed. This does help allow you to do some steering as well. Any additional demand of steering reduces the ultimate grip of the tire, and the effect is compensated for just as anything else affecting grip.

beachdog

Absolutely true. I know of several instances in my driving career that severe braking allowed me the time to actually get off of the brakes and steer around the obstacle.

The other phenomena that kicks-in in emergency driving situations is that vision gets fixed on the obstacle. The old driver's ed rule prevails, you go where you are looking. When you slow down, even in a straight line, it gives time to visualize a new path to follow.

Imidazole

I'm not going into some safety debate.

The most likely reason the car turned off, was because you spun a 180, the car started going reverse (Tires going backwards, engine was trying to go forwards) - 'backspun' the motor, which is fine... And it cut. You were probably only going backwards for a few split moments before you spun back around.

Happens when autocrossing all the time.