DonG35Miata

I got a call from my Nissan dealer today- he had a silver touring model available, so I went down to check it out. Not buying yet, but he is going to let me test drive a 6-speed when it comes in. I have to say, it is a VERY nice car. It makes me even more excited to see the RX-8 in person (I won't buy either until I do), as the Z looks much better when you are standing right next to it, vs. seeing it in pictures. It has a very exotic look to it, all hunkered down and low to the road. Visibility from the cockpit was not as bad as I thought it would be. Engine has a nice sound, a little more aggressive than my G35 at idle and while revving. Center console plastics used in the interior are top quality, nicer than my G35's, but the leather was not quite as good.

Overall, it has the feel of a very high quality automobile. You'd never guess it came from the same company that makes the Altima. But most important point I can make is that we can talk all we want about the RX-8's styling, but it was proven to me today, you HAVE to see it in person. If the RX-8 is that much better looking in person as the 350Z is, I'll be buying. Of course, it isn't a sports car like my Miata... after all, it has a BACK SEAT and FOUR DOORS! No sports car has a BACK SEAT and FOUR DOORS! :p But it looks like it's going to be a great car.

Sputnik

Testify, brother!

---jps

Hercules

I sat in it, and the only thing I liked was the seats and the steering wheel.

Everything else is remindedly very 'Nissan', cheap interior materials, as I expected.

I didn't drive it though, so I won't say anything on that regard.

Donny Boy

Yes, the 350Z is possessed of a beautiful exterior, but that interior, I'm not too keen on. Driving it, I suspect would be good, but the handling would waver due to the excess weight. Hope Nissan can cure that blubba problem. Distinctive, absolutely.

The RX-8 is more sports car than the Z as even though the RX-8 has 4 doors and 4 seats, it weighs much less, would be more responsive in the handling, steering and braking departments. And that interior, the most inviting that I have seen in a long time. The dash is gorgeous, the seats look phenominal, the steering wheel beautiful, the . . . need I say more.

And yed, the ultimate proof is in the driving. Do yourself a favor, no matter which car you choose, as they are equally desirable, drive them both before you decide.

danger

must have been fun being able to see the z up close, just wait till the 8 eh?

anyways, i think that there should be some sort of small track that all dealers have in an area, that allows you to test drive a car. handling, and acceleration, and everything like that.. THen you would really get a feel for the car, and have a better idea of what your looking for.

Grimace

Real world driving is what I'm most interested in. How does it feel around the city? Easy to drive in traffic? How does the suspension react to broken pavement/potholes/pedestrians? That kind of stuff.
Most magazines test their cars on the track at 10/10ths, so I get a good impression of how the car would behave in an autocross, for example. But you hardly ever hear how the car behaves in real situations.

m477

I don't get all the hating of the interior. I have seen several up close now and I think the interior is fine, and MUCH nicer than an Altima's. Sure, it might be kind of plasticy, but if you really can't stand it, then you will probably be dissapointed with the production RX-8 comes out. It's a $26k car just like the Z, most of that will go into handling, weight reduction, and of course the Renesis. So of course they are going to have to cut corners somewhere, you're just not gonna get a Benz-quailty interior and all that performance for $26k.

Hercules

For the Millenia you can get for around 21k, the interior is very very good. Also, the quality of the Mazda6's interior is already rated at "BMW quality" from Car and Driver, Road and Track, and other magazines.

It's not a matter that Nissan CAN'T do it for that price, it's taht they won't. Nissan interiors are crap, the 350Z is no different. Sorry, I won't budge on that, because I won't spend near 30k on a car whose interior sucks. I sit in the car every day, and I will be driving it and I have to like it, and I would never like the 350Z.

DonG35Miata

BMW "quality" doesn't mean much. They look and feel good when they are new, but the one I had didn't hold up. Word has it that the leather in the current 3-series wears pretty quickly as well.

You have a disdain for Nissan products that borders on pure hatred and makes me wonder why you grind the ax so hard. It's just a car, and a lot of us like them, including the media. We all know how much you hate them, and how much you love your Millenia, but the marketplace doesn't agree. If we did a show of hands here you are probably the only person who would take a Millenia over a G35.

PatrickB

For the record, I don't mind the G35 interior either (though I do really dislike the Altima's center console - there's so much empty space in places that the hard plastic gets on my nerve there unlike in the G35). *However*, make it a fair comparison. Would you take the Millenia and $10k or the G35?

DonG35Miata

Given that I bought a G35 with $8,500 down, you can safely say I took the G35 rather than a Millenia and $10k in cash. The Millenia doesn't come close to what I want. I compared the G35 primarily to the IS300 and Mercedes C-Class, though only to make sure I was getting the right car. I loved the G35 when I test drove it and that is what put me in the market, not any need. A very bad BMW experience meant they were disqualified from the get-go. Even if it wasn't, the 330i is much smaller, and a 5-series with comparable performance is too much money to sink in a single vehicle. I like what the G35 gives me... 5-series size, while outperforming a 330i, for less money, with Japanese reliabilty. I like the styling too though that is subjective. Everyone who has seen mine loves it though. The color combo really works. Too bad they discontinued Twilight Blue.

Hercules

Read my profile. I got an 01 Maxima.

What "BMW Quality" refers to is the quality of the materials in the car. The plastics are better, more sturdy, and have a more tactile feel to them. The G35 does not have this.

As per the G35 and the Millenia.. Yes I'd definately take the G35 over that, because it's much faster, it's rear wheel drive, and handles quite reasonably for the car that it is. It's also a great bargain at that price.

However, Nissan isn't offering us much, and that's why I dislike them. Yes, I do have an ax to grind with them, you are indeed correct. They use their VQ engine in 7 cars (Maxima, Altima, 350Z, G35 Sedan, G35 Coupe, Pathfinder and the new Murano). This allows them to greatly save on the cost of production for different platforms, and as a result the consumers should see that savings. They don't. What I would ask for in exchange for Nissan's money saving, is to at least upgrade the interior material of the car. They won't. So yes, I do have a particular dislike for Nissan. Not for their handling or performance, but for their lack of investment to their customers.

The 350Z is a nice car. I will definately drive one before I bite the bullet and get the RX-8, just for comparison's sake. However, I've already sat in one and yes, the materials inside are decidedly 'Nissan' in flavor. That doesn't take away from the fact it might be a great car otherwise, but I *do* drive in the car every day, and I like my entire driving experience to be a pleasure. Right now, my Millenia is my car of choice over the Maxima because it's got an upgraded stereo system (that I put in), because the interior flows more nicely and is more comfortable to me (the Millenia has pretty decent leather, the Maxima I have is cloth interior), and I generally have gotten better gas mileage. I have upgraded the tires and rims on the Millenia just so I can have a bit of fun on my day-to-day commute. I got the SE because I wanted more fun on a daily commute and also needed a second car for the woman. However, the woman now takes the SE and I take the Millenia.

What the Millenia lacks (severely I might add) in performance it does make up for a *tad* with its interior quality and comfort. The Maxima doesn't have it. And neither does the 350Z.

But now that Mazda's putting out a car that will handle the way I want, is RWD, pretty damn quick, and manual (yay a manual again!), I no longer feel the need for settling into a lower class car like the 350Z or G35 when I can have the best of both worlds in the RX-8. Granted BMW would be ideal for me, but I'm not spending that kind of money just yet.. I'm waiting till I have the cash to bite the bullet and get myself an M5

DonG35Miata

Herc,

Well put, and fair enough. Just as m477 said (and as they say in the financial industry) "past perfromance is no guarantee of future results". No saying the RX-8 will have that killer-quality interior. Not just Nissan is cheaping out these days... the same comments on interior quality are made about the Mercedes S-Class and the whole Porsche line. BTW when I said BMW quality I WAS referring to the interior materials. They just don't hold up as well as you would think. My door panel plastic came off from the foam base, my shifter **** broke in half, the leather wore unduly, and half the window switchgear went faulty. I speak from personal experience, and my experience was corraborated by other BMW switchers on the G35 board. And let me tell you... if you are used to Japanese reliability and durability, a BMW is NOT for you.

I have to say you are right about Nissan's cost savings, given how prolific the VQ engine is. I don't find the G35 interior that objectionable, or the 350Zs either. Definitely room for improvement, but given the sales of the car not too many people feel as strongly as you do. The Altima, though, is out of a first generation Hyundai. Cheapest plastic I have EVER seen, and a disqualifier in my book.

Finally, I DO hope the RX-8 has a premium grade interior. I am leaning more towards the RX-8 every time I look at it. I just hope it finds market success. I think the styling may be a little too quirky to achieve the sales level Mazda wants.

Hercules

Mazda has already announced that the interior of the RX-8 and Mazda6 will be above and beyond any car previously produced by them. The Millenia currently has a better QUALITY interior than the 350Z, though the 350Z has the 'neatness' factor to it for sure.

As per BMW... any performance vehicle like the RX-8 or a BMW I will be leasing. So long as while I have the car the materials inside last and are good to the TOUCH (that's the key thing to me in interior quality), then I'm a happy camper. My 2001 Maxima is leased and that will go straight back to the dealership and I'm donating my Millenia The RX-8 will become my everyday car, on a lease.

As per reliability of german cars... I agree with you on certain aspects. The engine of german cars are BULLETPROOF (for the most part). You can run them into the ground, and they will easily handle upwards of 500,000 miles. However, if the electronics in the car decide to go early (which is the main problem in those cars), the engine may not respond well to that because it requires a lot of electronics to function properly. But the engine itself is very very good. Japenese cars are great all around, their electronics work well for a long time, their engines last a good amount of time.... but they still lack the panache you get from a german automobile.

Granted though, the 330 was my initial thought in getting a car and I had put the RX-8 on the backburner.. but I test drove one, and was happy but not exhilirated. I wanted the coupe because the sedan looks downright awkward, but the rear seat room sucked. Not to mention, at a 40k price tag I think I'd rather save myself that $10k and put it towards an M3 sometime in the future.

Maybe even an RX-7 :D

BryanH

Have you guys sat in, say, a new '03 Corolla? The interiors on those cars look/feel better than a Lexus interior of 10 years ago. Interior materials/design are improving drastically in the last few years, it seems.

I certainly hope the RX-8 has as sumptuous an interior as the pictures suggest.

Hercules

Toyota is still years ahead of Nissan

But Amen to the RX-8's interior Hope it works out to my liking.

wakeech

hey Herc, you don't think the RX-7 has panache??
...in comparison to what??

DonG35Miata

My 325i needed a top-end rebuild at 53,000 miles. 3,000 miles out of warranty, LOL. It was not just electronics and interior. I also had major problems with the HVAC, suspension, and the rear differential failed too. It was an unbelievable POS. If you are leasing, you'll be OK as long as you don't go out of warranty.

I know what you mean by the Germans having more panache, but after owning one I don't see it anymore, at least in BMW! I speak from experience, and not just my own... they may drive great, but they are not "good" cars. Know what Car and Driver said about the 540i six-speed? "Loves to run hard, but seems to give up parts as it goes. " The engine in an Automobile Magazine long-term 740I failed at 18,000 miles and needed replaced. There are many stories of BMW woe on the G35 board, and I hear them from other owners I know. There are some BMW lemon websites too. You just don't see people venting like that about Lexus and Infiniti. You won't spend the money on a Nissan because of the interior quality... I refuse to buy a BMW because of overall quality.

Where did you come up with your theories on German cars and electronics?

I guess it is all moot since you will be getting an RX-8, anyway!

Elara

Honestly, we've never had any real problem with our 325- it's a 93, and now has 150k miles on it- we did have some fun with the water pump right about 110K miles, but that's really been it. There have been minor annoyances, like the outside temperature gauge has been registering that it's -32 degrees farenheit for about 2 months now- but from what I understand, the 90's 325i's were rather susceptible to eletrical problems the longer they go.

I should mention, the interior is wonderful as well- yeah, it's showing a little wear NOW- but the car IS 10 years old.

I really think it just depends on the car- my family has never had anything but good luck with German cars. I think, perhaps, you just got lucky and got a lemon. And there are lemon sites for EVERY type of car, including Lexus, Infinity, and Nissan- no car manufacturer is perfect. I should post excerpts from some of the complaints we get on our website at work- you need fireproof gloves to handle most of them.

fuz

Had all german cars for the past 12 years. While they do break down, nothing really serious, mostly a lot of annoying electrical problems like radio, phone, cd player, locks, powered equp, etc. Most happen within 2 years of ownership, then they become rare.

Except for the MB 1991 300E (got it in 90), which I drove like a maniac and cracked a cylinder, blew the water pump, radiator, and the rear suspension all in one year, 98'. More than $4k in repairs, over half devoted to labor. BUT, it had no rattles, even after 12 years. Very strange. :p Even our newer MBs got rattles in just after 3 years.

Currently beating a new 325i into the ground, but may give it up for an RX-8, if it becomes available within the next year or so.

rxtreme

iTrader: (1)

My '01 325i had some sort of crankcase or driveshaft sensor that jacked up alot of other systems, as well. That was at 21k miles. I also had a thermoswitch go bad that caused the car to overheat at just over 7k miles.

The major thing I don't like about BMW's (the newer ones) is they don't like owners working on their own cars. Even something simple like changing oil requires a computer reset that the dealer has to do if you want the warranty to remain intact (oil changes cost about 80 dollars in Germany, not covered under warranty). Christ, I couldn't even check the antifreeze without pulling apart half a dozen pieces to the radiator. In the states, I believe all routine maintenance is covered by BMW because it will increase their resale values if the car is sold within or at the end of the warranty period. There is nothing like advertising a fully dealer maintained car.

m477

First off, the MSRP on a Millenia is $28k+.

The Millenia's performance sucks. Edmunds rated it dead last in their comparison tests of cars in that class, mostly because it was so damn slow. It's also FWD which is much cheaper to manufacture than RWD. Therefore, there's much more money left over to go into the luxury features, like the interior. The same can generally be said about the Mazda6 (although it hopefully won't be so slow).

I'm not saying the RX-8 won't have a nice interior, noone knows yet. I just don't see how it is possible for the RX-8 to have the same performance as an E36 M3, AND the same quality interior, all for $15k less. If they can, then they will have a hard time making enough RX-8s, but like I said, I just don't see how that is possible for that price...

Hercules

Why don't you head down to the dealer and see how much the Millenia comes out to? My friend's dad bought one a month ago for 21k, because of all the rebates since the car is being discontinued.

Just because the MSRP says 28k doesn't mean it costs taht much. And yes, it's very slow, and it's FWD I am quite aware of that.

The interior materials don't cost THAT MUCH. It's just a matter of whether the manufacturer wants to put in the materials at a slightly (read, like $300) higher cost to make the vehicle be that much nicer.

Mind you, BMWs are VERY expensive and overpriced. They sell the cars for much more than they build them for, whereas the Japanese counterparts like Infiniti and now Mazda are going to get the money from sales in volume instead of in price.

I do see how it is possible for the RX-8 to have a nice interior, and out perform the E36 M3 easily. Because Mazda hasn't marked up the car SO high that it's stupid to buy it. I would love an E46 M3 but for 55k, it simply isn't worth it. There are good cars out there for less than that, and even more when the RX-7 comes out, and the RX-8 MazdaSpeed.

I mean seriously... do you think a BMW 330Ci is worth 40k, when it's only got 225 under the hood? It's because BMW is a luxury company and people pay the premium to have the BMW roundel sitting on their hoods. Granted they perform very well but once the Japanese learn the secret formula of BMW's success, either BMW will cut their prices or get lower sales. The G35 has already started cutting into the 330 sales.

DonG35Miata

Where are the Lexus and Infiniti lemon sites? I've looked for them, and have not had any luck!

Immi

Millenia's are crap man. There is a reason why they are being discontinued.

- 21k is 21k too much i'd spend for that car.

------ oh yeah.. and they ARE 28k dude
ill take that offer and go to a dealership and see how much we get one for