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Team, you're saying you are designing an equal length manifold that will fit low mount in the Rx8 Chassis with the big boy EFRs? If that's the case colour me interested. Hard to say anything for sure right now but one of the potential concerns I have in the back of my mind with my setup is how much longer the rear runner is with two additional bends and what that means for EMAP and EGR's between front and rear. Fortunately I'll be monitoring EGR's this go around so I'll see some actual empirical data once I'm back up and running. Unfortunately EMAP just isn't in the works.
My biggest concern with your comments "perfectly centered" is that there is no room between the LIM and subframe/frame rail. Mine now literally has mm's of clearance only and that's with the compressor in front of LIM and the back of the compressor vband trimmed for LIM clearance. Hopefully there is some room there that I'm not seeing though, of course that photos Minc posted above, if that indeed is a 9180, moots my comments.
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 03-16-2023 at 11:05 AM.
yes it is. It was me who posted those photos on the forum several years back. That build was never finished though. My understanding is it ended up being parted out and sold off. Because the engine was listed for sale on here maybe two or three years ago.
I know an EFR8384 fits in there; other people have done it, but positioned similar to yours and having that exact issue. It appeared to have more clearance than yours though. The idea that was gifted to me for a manifold design is for a smaller turbo. I’m not sure if it will fit an EFR, but would like to find out. As you said though, the photos from that old build indicate it can be fit.
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but I’m seeing something there that indicates they might have made it fit rather than it just bolting in.
Adam has updated me saying the irons have arrived, we may have the engine sooner than expected. We also worked out that he can include:
ACT extreme pressurplate
ACT heavy organic clutch
ACT streetlite flywheel
Oil pan vertical baffle plate
He also thinks he has a set of 2x 1000cc primaries and 2x 2200cc sec injectors that I may grab from him. Once the engine is in shipping I will make a post going over all of the details of the engine itself, for the most part it will be all new built by pieces.
I am also printing a second mock turbo which may be done over the weekend, Team if you want to PM me we can work out shipping/rental/who needs it.
Another member here was kind enough to share some quite excellent information with me that clarifies that it should be possible to get an EFR turbo in there as we recently discussed several posts above. There may possibly be some adjustment required once we get to the point of checking fitment with the initial mockup, but not expecting it to be any problem. It may come down to which LIM is being used, not really sure on that though.
Don't take my word on this, but my understanding is the Xcessive may give a small faction of additional room down there compared to the stock LIM. We'll see when mine arrives, but currently the biggest interference I have with my current setup is the compressor housing on the front runner (mocked up with a friends Xcessive). The runner walls are quite thick though and I should be able to remove enough material from the outside of it to get the turbo/manifold to fit.
Can see the gap of my exhaust manifold flange to the block:
@RotaryMachineRx Were you able to install the turbo there with the LIM in place? The last pics Team posted it looks like their manifold gets the turbo farther down and above the subframe.
I'm trying out the CX racing LIM since I could not find an Xcessive at the time. I might have trouble since they did a tubular that appears to come out farther than the Xcessive.
Since I already have the mock turbo, to figure out fitment I may print a 2 piece jig which may help figure out the locations for the two flanges. Something like the below.
Yes, my turbo fits in that spot with a stock LIM (I had to trim the compressor cover Vband a bit for clearance). That photo is my same turbo location that fits on the stock LIM but with an Xcessive LIM instead, as you can see it sits a little bit more forward that the stock LIM, I'm thinking that just due to a thicker runner wall than the stock LIM and I should be able to shave enough off the xcessive to fit..... I can't say much about the CX racing one, I've never seen it in person before, but since my turbo sits so close to the secondary port on the front iron it's likely that all 3 of these LIM's have nearly similar fitment, I'd wager the CX racing will fit more closely to the xcessive than stock.
One other minor thing to note, if the turbo is much lower it may be difficult to fit a filter on the inlet as it will be so tight to the front sway bar, my filter basically sits on top of this now. There's likely filter options that are shorter that still flow enough though, but just a consideration. Here's a big ole photo dump of a bunch of pictures showing my turbo location:
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 03-22-2023 at 05:56 PM.
Being able to move the turbo lower, and further back would be ideal, having equal, or closer to equal runners and no interference with LIM. Fitting the big compressor on the EFR down there would be my largest "can it fit" concern. Really hard for me to gauge now that I don't have an engine in my car haha
I don't mind, saves me some scrolling in his thread.
Second mock turbo has been printed btw.
In other news I have been looking around to see what is out there gearing wise. The 3.909 (P062-27-110A) appears to be popular with a few 450hp FD builds running the JDM trans. Hopefully I will still be able to find one once the car is running. It is also nice to test out the different gearings in Assetto Corsa. I will note that the 4.1 + rx8 tire diameter would be very similar gearing to the rx7 with the 3.909
be careful, sometimes parts can be listed there that are NLA. Because if you search that 3.909 R&P part number on the web it will display for many USA dealerships. However, it’s commonly noted as being NLA at Atkins, Mazdatrix, etc. You receive a price on the Amayama site, but no shipping cost. That’s sort of a red flag.
However, there are some Mazda R&Ps from the late 1980s-early 1990s that are the same 8” ring gear, but on the FD3 TT and RX8 models Mazda switched to a stronger bearing on the pinion gear head end, which has a 5mm larger ID. You can use those older R&Ps too, but it requires a hardened sleeve to be installed on the pinion bearing end to fit either the FD3 or RX8 differentials.
You just have to understand which Mazda models have the 8” R&P and which ratio is all. Because they vary alot by model, 2wd vs 4wd, engine size, etc. In general the largest/most powerful engine in 2WD is going to have the steeper ratio gearset. There was a 3.727 R&P and I managed to find and buy one used in excellent condition from a USDM B2600 2.6L 2WD truck and am currently waiting on the hardened sleeve to arrive. It’s actually the perfect gear for both the CD009 trans swap and also will work with a BMW DCT trans swap.
I also found a NOS Mazda MPV differential in a bargain sale with a 3.909 R&P that just needs the same pinion bearing surface sleeve mod. It must have been sitting at some Mazda dealership for several decades. The weakest point of the pinion; the smallest diameter near the splined end at the driveshaft end that determines the shear strength of it, is the same as the FD3 and RX8. So the sleeve mod only accommodates the one larger bearing and otherwise those old R&Ps should be just as strong wrt torque rating as any of the newer ones.
Assuming you can find one. The needle in the haystack though is there was a 3.583 R&P in one model of the 929 only for the first year of production. I think it was only available in the EUDM, but possibly Japan as well. There likely were not that many. So that steepest ratio is probably lost to time.
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I received the 3D BW turbo yesterday and initially it looks promising. The turbine wasn’t as big as I had expected. It’s roughly about the same as the G30 1.06 which sort of surprised me. The BW compressor is definitely larger, but unless I’m missing something obvious that will pop up unexpectedly when the actual positioning in the chassis takes place, it should fit.
Unlike the picture with the EFR9180, it’s not going to be sticking way out over the subframe as much either. And unlike the other manifolds I’ve seen:
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it’s not tilted upward, which tilting it that way is bringing the compressor towards the LIM higher up where the LIM runners are projecting out further.
Yet the distance from the engine to the turbo flange is quite a bit shorter allowing it to fit in there closer to the engine where the LIM projects out less in that direction. Yet still not stick out way over the subframe either. On those other manifolds it’s not just tilted up, but also angled in the other direction placing the compressor even closer to the LIM. That’s because of where the compressor is positioned more forward and having less clearance from the chassis there.
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One thing I need to look at more is I received some measurements from someone with the Nicon Rotary engine support brace that suggests the engine sits higher with it than the Banzai brace on my Strokercharged RX8. I’m still not anticipating that being anything more than possibly a slight adjustment in the manifold design, if it’s even needed at all.
This 3D mockup is the cats meow compared to a real turbo that weighs 12x more. Super cool Minc. 😎
So that last pic above showing the difference in turbo position is a direct derivative of the Renesis turbo manifold design. Which the key to it is eliminating the Renesis engine mount and bracket like on the REW. It’s even slicker than the REW manifold in that it’s mostly from laser cut T321 sheet stock rather than tube/pipe.
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One thing I need to look at more is I received some measurements from someone with the Nicon Rotary engine support brace that suggests the engine sits higher with it than the Banzai brace on my Strokercharged RX8. I’m still not anticipating that being anything more than possibly a slight adjustment in the manifold design, if it’s even needed at all.
The person I know that used the Turblown E.Manifold and EFR9180 had to cut the poly pucks on his Nicon brace in half so the engine/turbo would fit without interference on the subframe/frame rail (Nicon engine mounts had the engine sitting up higher by ~1/2"). Just a bit of back-up to confirm this statement.
someone else with the Nicon support indicated that the bottom of the exhaust ports were approx. 40mm higher than the top of the subframe where the OE engine mount sits, but I was thinking it was closer to even on the Stroker car with the Banzai support. That’d be quote a difference, so I may be mistaken. There could be some difference with the Nicon setup being new and not driven on yet vs. quite well used & abused on the Banzai setup wrt engine mount bushings settling.
Trying to get out there this evening to pull the turbo manifold off. Can then verify it with the Banzai mount for sure. I may not be seeing it as clearly with the manifold in place.
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@RotaryMachineRx Do you know if that user had to smash the firewall in for the OE LIM?
@TeamRX8 I'd be interested to hear the exhaust port placement. Its a great measurement point. Also how low does your oil pan sit in reference to the bottom of the subframe?
Dustin, the guy I'm referring to is Aaron Hall on FB or @street_port_yyc on instagram.... if I'm not mistaken I believe you've chatted with him before. He is using an Xcessive LIM.
Fickert is sending me out the 3.909 diff that sold on the Rx7Club. I may go with the Kaaz 1.5 way diff when it comes time to build the diff.
Adam at REC is soon to be back from vacation and I will be finishing out the build (maybe in the car mid next month?) Only thing I need is some silicone for the oil pan and some bolts for the CX crossmember that they didn't provide.
I went through the paperwork that came with the car and found a nice surprise. Turns out the previous owner had mazda put full oem suspension on the car around 10k miles ago. ARBs, Arms, Struts.
Spent all of last week getting overspray off the car. Also cleaned out the engine bay (pics below). Removed the rusting out crossbar. The remains of the stock coolant and oil cooler systems, oil coolers can probably be fixed. Removing the A/C components next weekend, these will just be blocked off for the time being. Thinking of painting the engine bay while we are here. However this would require me removing the brake booster, abs, clutch masterCyl and the fusebox+harnesses. I may drop the subframe next weekend too, that could be painted as well.
Between the ECU box and Fusebox sheet metal is about 26in and the AC condenser is about 24in wide on its face. About time to think of intercooler setups again.
Love seeing this Team, thanks for sharing! Wonder if we should start a discussion thread or feel free to move this over to my thread ha (unless Minc is cool with it but don't wanna clog his build info up). But I'm going to comment here for the time being as well.
I still have the stud and engine mount bracket on my frame, but it could easily be ground away to some added room (I may even do that now that my engine is out). Like you've mentioned I also removed the cross member for the stock battery tray cut out for some additional room and with my turbo sitting where it does now I needed to grind away some of the boost control solenoid boss on the compressor cover.
The biggest thing I'm seeing is that your banzai engine mount adapter does not appear to be the same as mine, mine is bolted to the bottom of the Rx8 frame and does not have any component in line with the exhaust ports like your first photo. The highest part of my banzai mount is the two poly mounts themselves right under the factory 13BREW cast engine mount arms that are bolted to the rear iron. If I'm seeing that right your Banzai adapter is on top of the frame where the stock engine mount bracket and that camber bolt is?
Last edited by RotaryMachineRx; 04-24-2023 at 03:23 PM.
03-16-2023, 10:59 AM
