VikingDJ

HI. I was hoping there was someone on this board that could give me some useful info. My current KBB trade in value on my 04 rx8 is $27500. It's a black on black GT with every option and dealer installs. The msrp on car is $35844, and it only has 3100 miles on it. My question is, that if I were to try and trade it in on a comparably priced car in the 30-33k range, how much of a hit would I take. Would the dealer give me $27500? I am not sure if this is possible, but I am just looking into a possible way out of my rx8, if I decide in the next month or so that I no longer want the car. I've never dealt with this before, but I am not sure how dealers react when you try and trade in a valuable car that isn't far from the price of a new vehicle you want. Will they give me much less then $27500? Considering how cheap rx8s are to buy now, and the fact that they are currently selling way below invoice, I tend to think the dealer will not go for it. The demand on a used rx8 is very low, even though book value might suggest otherwise. I don't like the fact that even though the private party value of my rx8 is $30500, that's downright impossible for me to get it in a private sale. FUlly loaded ones are selling new for around $31-$32k. If anyone has ever tried trading in a car of near value to a new vehicle, please let me know what your experiences are. I haven't made a decision on whether to get rid of the rx8, but I want to explore possible options, and see if it's even possible to avoid a big hit. I'd hoped that getting 3500 off msrp would be that much less I could lose on an early trade in, but to me it just seems so unlikely, due to the lack of demand for rx8s. Thanks for reading,

Zeltar

VikingDJ - I feel for you. Been there, done that. If you can keep the RX-8, financially, it's a much better deal. I had a Mustang for 8 months with 3500 miles when it became the wrong time to own such a vehicle, thus falling victom to your ordeal.

Like you, a private sales was absolutely out of the question. No body searching for a used car is looking to spend that much, and if they were, they'd just go to the dealer. So, I went and tried the used car lots... and although they'd drool over the car, they didn't have the financial resources to buy it either. They'd all refer me to the dealers - as they were the only ones with deep enough pockets to handle the purchase. And, when I spoke to some dealers, they wouldn't considering paying cash outright for the car... rather they would only buy it if I bought one of theirs.

As a trade, it sucked. Blue book, who cares? They had the next years model showing up on the lot, and were selling their new ones for less than mine was worth. All said, I lost just over 9,000 dollars on the deal - or about 35%. I had too many cars at the time, so I softened the blow with a multiple car trade in, coming out with just one. But, it still stings.

Remember, the dealer is going to give you significanly less for your trade in then they can sell it for. I bet they offer you 21,000. Then, they'll take it in back, remove any personal details you added, wash it (whether it needs it or not), and then stick it on the lot for $26,000. This will give them $5000 of wiggle room for dealing, while paying for the building, lights, advertising, sales men, finance department, and what ever else you can think of.

VikingDJ

To be totally honest, it's not a question of not being able to afford the rx8, it's a question of not sure I want the rx8 anymore. I realize that most owners here have no regrets, but I do. I narrowed my choice on a new car to several different vehicles, and I never made it past mazda dealership because I was so captured by the looks of the 8. Now with the value of car dropping so fast, the high production, and all the little quirks this car has, I was hoping there would be a slight chance I could get full trade in. This is what I was afraid of, and it may have happened. The rx8 is headed down the path of the Eclipse at the rate it's going. For mazda that's a good thing. For the common value and vintage the rx series has always had, it'sa bad thing. To me it's pretty sad if the trade in talue is rated at 27500, and I can only get like 22-23k for it. For people who bought this car with 100% intentions to keep it for a long time, it doesn't matter. I guess for mazda it would be great to make the rx8 a common everyday dime a dozen car. The problem is, with so many of these, it's a buy it and you marry it car. I'm gonna test the market and see just how gigantic of a hit I would take if I tried trading it in for a near value car. I'll post it up and let you know.

WHealy

I’ve traded new cars way too many times. So I can speak from experience.

Check the KBB trade in value. Expect a dealer to offer you 2-3K below that.

You’re correct about the frustrations of car value. Almost every vehicle on the road has been hit hard by the economy slow down. The big three have contracts with the UAW that make shutting down plants not cost effective. So they just keep producing cars and minimize losses with rebates. This eventually forces competitors to offer rebates as well. Over production also leads to dealer having to offer the vehicle for invoice. So when we hear of folks getting great deals on RX-8’s or rebates, that great news for them, bad news for current owners who are thinking of selling as the price is driven down. No one will be paying more for a used car than what they can buy a new one for.

That being said, I have to disagree with the private sale comments. You should always be able to get more out of a vehicle selling it on your own as opposed to trading it in at the dealership. Go find trade in value and get disappointed (just describing what happens to me). Then realize that you can do better than that buy selling on your own. You then need to figure out how much better you can do ($1 – 3K?) and if the hassle is worth the reward. Of my last three vehicles, I traded one. The dealer came away with trade in price 25% more than two other dealers. Wasn’t sure if it was a mistake, but I took it as I thought I could only get about $1K more. The last vehicle I dealt with I literally got 33% more than trade in offer by selling it on my own.

I’d simply say, dedicate as much time to getting rid of your current vehicle as you do researching a new and you will come out with the best possible outcome.

Good luck.

biggd29

your top complaint about this car seems to be that they are going to be way to common. you seem to know what car you are going to replace it with. what car are you looking to buy?

VikingDJ

I think you misunderstood me. KBB lists the private sale value of my car at $30500. They are selling at dealership right now for $31k brand new. So I'd expect to get around 27-28k if I sold it privately. Trade in for KBB is $27500. Assuming I can't get anywhere trade in value, I guess private sale would benefit me more. It would however be a time consuming process that I can assure you of. People are trying to sell them on ebay with no luck. As for trade in value. There are many cars out there that you can easily get full trade in value for. Example: My dad's VW golf, the woman's xterra. My Mom's subaru legacy. They all got full trade [/QUOTE]

Quote: your top complaint about this car seems to be that they are going to be way to common. you seem to know what car you are going to replace it with. what car are you looking to buy?

That is not my complaint about the car. That is my complaint about trying to trade it in or sell it. The mass production, and low demand is what is hurting the value of the car. It's not a good thing when private party value matches what the car currently sells for new. I am looking at an 05 sti at the moment. No decision has been made, but I am exploring for the heck of it just to see. I figured it can't hurt, but likely I'll be stuck with car for a few years. It's not a bad deal to be stuck with an rx8, but if there's a way out, I'll find it.

dean2900

The 8 is a nice car but you are absolutely right about high production and low demand.


My S2000 I paid 33k for 3 1/2 years ago and go 22k for it last week for my trade in.

I already knew the RX-8 would not maintain their value so I leased one.

I really think part of the problem is that the 8 is compared to the S2000, 350z, etc. and it is a good bit slower.

I think if the RX-8 would have had about 50 more hp, it would be the best selling sports car in it's class by far. However, this is a new engine and I expect Mazda will improve on it in '06 or later. However, what happens to the value of the old RX-8 if Mazda has a 300+ hp vehicle in '06?

Dean

knowledge1213

some on you have no clue about how the car market and personal finance should work. some of you buy things with the idea of impressing people you dont know, or buy things before you should just to the drive the lastest and the greatest. what makes this bad is the debt. Buying anything that goes down in value on credit is a bad financial move without having a sound financial plan. the very best way to buy a car is CASH if u can............the second best way is to put down 20% and finance for no longer than 48 months. If you can put more down do it.............you never lease because you can never develop wealth leasing a car and you will be paying car payments for forever and never own anything...its best to buy a car 2-3 yrs old and let somebody else take the depreciation hit or if u buy new...you have to keep the car at least 9-10 yrs to make your money back you lost...another plus in that is you can go 4-5 yrs with no car payment.....and saving and investing that money ......while at the same time saving up for a new one..............for example take the avg car payment.......is $378 a month for 66mths...........if someone was to invest that $378 from age 25-65 they would have about 4.2-4.5 million dollars if the realized a return on 12% on their investment. so the question to you sir is........how much did u pay for your rx-8? how much do you owe? and if u find yourself upside down in your loan that simply means you did not put enough money down on the car........or 2. you paid to much for the car..........no matter if u paid msrp(meaning that was the cheapest they were selling in the market).........msrp is always to much in my opinion. $500 over invoice is the max.....a dealer should get, so if that means you have to wait a little longer to get that deal.............its worth it..........and if i person does get that deal and puts down at least 20% they will avoid negative equity.......98% of the time..........and be in a powerful financial position..........to trade, sell.........or keep..............I would advise you to check www.nada.com for your trade value and edmunds.com............and if you are really upside down..........keep the car......and sell next spring or summer..........give yourself time to try and save the portion you are negative..........Have a great day......

heh8me

Thank you for the personal finance lesson. However, you miss a few points.

"You never lease a car" is a ridiculous statement. There are many reasons to lease a car.

The first reason is that a car is a depreciable asset. It's smarter to rent something that goes down in value and buy something that goes up in value. This is why I rent (lease) my car and own my house.

The second reason is because you like to drive new or newer cars. As many people have noticed, you get burned if you try to sell a new car because of the depreciation. If you lease a car, you are paying less for that depreciation because the residual will almost always be higher than the car's market value at the end of the lease. And if it isn't, simply buy the car at the residual and sell it at the market value.

You are correct that people would be smarter if they simply invested the excess money they're paying to satisfy their car fetishes. What you have to realize that in economics there is a concept call utility. Utility is the monetary and non-monetary (tangible and intangible) benefits you receive from something. The purely tangible benefit you receive from a car is transportation. If this is your only goal, your best bet is not to buy a 2-3 year-old car, but to spend $2000 or so on a 10 year old Civic or Camry, and then drive that car until it dies.

However, many of us drive cars because of the non-monetary/intangible benefits. We find certain cars fun to drive. We like a certain kind of ride. Otherwise, we wouldn't be on this message board, would we?

Finally, don't look at Edmunds, NADA or Kelly's or any of those others for finding trade-in value. Car dealers use the "ROUGH" value listed in auction books. These are the flip books that they, banks and insurance companies use.

heh8me

Last lease comment... for now.

The reason why I leased an RX-8 is because I want the fun, but I don't want to have to worry about what these things are worth in three years.

If they increase engine performance the first year models are going to depreciate significantly, especially in view of the various issues the car has had. But I won't have to worry about that because I've got a lease with a high residual.

knowledge1213

I respect your comment heh8me..........,but dealers do use the NAda book.........thats the book that is used at auctions........(I am a wholesaler). However the numbers are set according to market(supply and demand...region of country etc........) ......so it's a little different than the consumer version, but very close............you missed my point or you did not read or understand what I was writing. You NEVER LEASE. I will not move from that financial mindset. IF your goal is to live for STATUS............and you are going to trade in a car every few yrs then, Yes I agree leasing is fine. However, if your goal is to be wealthy or be at least financially stable.......leasing is a bad idea......,because you can't get wealth or save for a strong retirement wasting money on car payments . The objective is to buy it pay it off fast and keep it.............while saving those payments and investing........and saving for another car............if u leased for 3 yrs.........versus someone who paid a car off in that same time on the same car........the person who bought it would be way ahead....financial speaking over 7-8yrs...........while you have wasted money on two leases.........lets look at an example.

ok....in 2002 a lincoln continental was worth 35,719 new..........a 1998 model(samebody style) was worth 16,500 ....ok lets say you bought the 2002 and financed it............ok say i paid cash for the 16,500 model.........ok using a 10% rate on the credit u end up paying 42k over 48 terms. over that time i am taking the money i would have been paying on payments and investing at a 10% return........i would have 29k in cash after 4 yrs...........and a car worth 14k........would u rather have the used car and the cash? or the car u bought new worth 17k now........and u took a 11k lost................with only 17k towards a another car..............versus the 36k i would have. think about it

heh8me

If your only goal is to accumulate wealth, your best bet is to buy is to buy a fully depreciated, highly reliable car with cash.

Back when I was a grad student in finance, I bought a 10-year-old Camry with 98,000 miles on it for $2800. During the 5 years I owned it, I drove 80,000 miles, spent $150 for a new alternator, replaced the tires once, the brake pads once, paid $15 every 3000 miles for oil changes, and sold it for $700. This means that aside from maintenance, I paid $2100 to drive the car for 5 years. That's $30/month.

But it wasn't fun car to drive.

I don't drive my car for status. I drive it because it's fun.

The problem with your pay all the cash you can strategy is that when interest rates are low, you may have better places to put your money than in a depreciable asset.

Clarification on the NADA book. I thought you were talking about the yellow book that people can buy at the supermarket. You know, the one that dealer's use to justify the prices of their used cars. The book I was talking about is the wholesaler's book, the one I used when I was a lender.

knowledge1213

exactly......now we on the same page. when u came out of school you did a wise thing.........if you would have saved the money u could have used for payments..........you could have paid cashed and still had fun, while saving and invest towards another car for cash down the road. you can buy a car brand new if u liked every 4-5 yrs with cash.......if u work a system....to make that happen, but u gotta start small and build up your cash reserves overtime.................i am not saying you bought a rx8 for status........i was just saying....in general. did not mean to imply that......hey you happy ...i am happy....... I feelings just lean more toward wealth building because I hate debt ........even when the interest are low....it's still debt and the car still loses value............i am still investing using dollar cost averaging in mutual funds for over 15 yrs now.........cash is the best when it comes to cars;however, someone not as stable as i am , can benefit from investing the cash and taking a 1.9, 2.9, or 3.9 or no interest deal............i agree with that........

heh8me

The key words are "someone not as stable."

I agree with you on one thing. Too many young people sink too much money into their cars.

I'm one of those people who deprived himself of the fun stuff for many years (I'm 44) and made the economically sound decisions. I always drove the crappy cars that provided me with basic transportation.

A friend of mine defines midlife crisis as finally being able afford the stuff you want.

knowledge1213

Midlife....lol!!! well maybe.......i am 29 and frugal.......always have been..........had a ira at 15 yrs old........open my first mutual fund at 18..........paid cash for everything..........now i can pay cash for the nice cars easily. when i get your age......i guess i will be in another crisis on midlife.............what color is your 8?

heh8me

Lightning Yellow!

Go here for the full story.

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/waited-16-years-my-new-rx-8-a-35325/

knowledge1213

so how is the navi in the 8. can it play dvd's........does it give atms etc.......voice activated?

heh8me

No DVDs, but it does ATMs and Voice.

dean2900

First off, there are some good points made by knowledge BUT it depends on your goals. As far as saving money, the RX-8 is not a wise choice because you know how many they have made and supply is well above demand.

However, I think leasing is a great idea if you already own another car(s). You get the advantage of a new car for three years and then get to turn it in for a new toy. Must mature people do allocate money for things they enjoy.

If you buy a car soley for financial reasons then you should buy a limited edition car, pay cash, and then drive it as few miles as possible.

However, I could have bought my 8, put down %25 - 100% but I took a look at some scenarios where the depreciation of the car could cost me more if I bought it and sold it in three years.

The lease is a nice "no worries" approach IMO since it gives you 3 years and then and out.

Dean

flatso

tell me where you are getting 12% return on investment? I have been getting negative 3% the last few years in the stock market. Better to invest in something you enjoy then lose it in the stock market.

I do agree with you that it is better to buy then to lease but only if you keep your cars past the payments. When you "rent" you always have a car payment .

The wisest thing is to buy a 2 or 3 year old used car. Let the original owner take most of the depreciation hit. I think the Rx8 will be my last new car purchase for a long time so I hope it lasts. The car has been very reliable so far.

By the way "Autotrader" is a good way to sell a car. I had my BMW Z3 listed for only 2 weeks and it sold for a lot more then the dealer was offering.

knowledge1213

flatso how are you? well money is something you have to be discipline with and study......i have done this for years.........to make this short.......I would recommend that you go to www.morningstar.com and research the varying mutual funds that have produced up to 20% or more returns for the last 20-40 years. there are 1000's of them........just depends on how much money u have to invest and where u are financially...............actually i have avg more than 12% .......i just used 12 as a good example.........one of my funds are up 30% the last 2 quarters alone...........and i earn 28% return the last 12 mths............i study money as i do anything else in my life. put forth the effort and i promise it will pay off. also check.....vanguard.com ....... fidelity.com ..clarkhoward.com daveramsey.com

JulieMae

Knowledge, will you marry me?

J/k, of coarse. You actually remind me of my husband. It took me months to negotiate buying the 8 because he kept telling me it was a bad financial decission. As if I was buying it as an investment...

dean2900

Some decisions are driven by emotions not finances. Life is too short..

knowledge1213

emotions make you broke and cause you to make unsound decisions not only financially, but in other walks of life. you can enjoy life.........and be sound financially at the sametime. That type of thinking is why most americans are burden with Debt........;therefore, they are slaves to their jobs.........they work for that car.........they have no power...........debt weakens you........and makes u put up with stuff you would not if you were in a stronger financial position...........I enjoy my rx-8........because i have no debt except for my house.....which is good debt...they only think in life u can term such a thing, except for maybe student loans.............life is not short.......it's as long as u make it. You have to create what you want in life.......in time....not in quick, fast, and emotional feelins............Life easy when u have patience, and discipline............because when the storms do blow your way.......you can handle it better. IN life you are either in a storm......coming out of a storm........or going into one.............you make the storms weak when your financial base is strong...........

knowledge1213

so when is the wedding? well your hubby is a wise man indeed.............don't make other people wealthy by over paying for something going down in value....he is right. just be patient and that deal will come your way and it did...congrats to u.........enjoy