Trade in value on rx8
 

HI. I was hoping there was someone on this board that could give me some useful info. My current KBB trade in value on my 04 rx8 is $27500. It's a black on black GT with every option and dealer installs. The msrp on car is $35844, and it only has 3100 miles on it. My question is, that if I were to try and trade it in on a comparably priced car in the 30-33k range, how much of a hit would I take. Would the dealer give me $27500? I am not sure if this is possible, but I am just looking into a possible way out of my rx8, if I decide in the next month or so that I no longer want the car. I've never dealt with this before, but I am not sure how dealers react when you try and trade in a valuable car that isn't far from the price of a new vehicle you want. Will they give me much less then $27500? Considering how cheap rx8s are to buy now, and the fact that they are currently selling way below invoice, I tend to think the dealer will not go for it. The demand on a used rx8 is very low, even though book value might suggest otherwise. I don't like the fact that even though the private party value of my rx8 is $30500, that's downright impossible for me to get it in a private sale. FUlly loaded ones are selling new for around $31-$32k. If anyone has ever tried trading in a car of near value to a new vehicle, please let me know what your experiences are. I haven't made a decision on whether to get rid of the rx8, but I want to explore possible options, and see if it's even possible to avoid a big hit. I'd hoped that getting 3500 off msrp would be that much less I could lose on an early trade in, but to me it just seems so unlikely, due to the lack of demand for rx8s. Thanks for reading,

VikingDJ - I feel for you. Been there, done that. If you can keep the RX-8, financially, it's a much better deal. I had a Mustang for 8 months with 3500 miles when it became the wrong time to own such a vehicle, thus falling victom to your ordeal.

Like you, a private sales was absolutely out of the question. No body searching for a used car is looking to spend that much, and if they were, they'd just go to the dealer. So, I went and tried the used car lots... and although they'd drool over the car, they didn't have the financial resources to buy it either. They'd all refer me to the dealers - as they were the only ones with deep enough pockets to handle the purchase. And, when I spoke to some dealers, they wouldn't considering paying cash outright for the car... rather they would only buy it if I bought one of theirs.

As a trade, it sucked. Blue book, who cares? They had the next years model showing up on the lot, and were selling their new ones for less than mine was worth. All said, I lost just over 9,000 dollars on the deal - or about 35%. I had too many cars at the time, so I softened the blow with a multiple car trade in, coming out with just one. But, it still stings.

Remember, the dealer is going to give you significanly less for your trade in then they can sell it for. I bet they offer you 21,000. Then, they'll take it in back, remove any personal details you added, wash it (whether it needs it or not), and then stick it on the lot for $26,000. This will give them $5000 of wiggle room for dealing, while paying for the building, lights, advertising, sales men, finance department, and what ever else you can think of.

To be totally honest, it's not a question of not being able to afford the rx8, it's a question of not sure I want the rx8 anymore. I realize that most owners here have no regrets, but I do. I narrowed my choice on a new car to several different vehicles, and I never made it past mazda dealership because I was so captured by the looks of the 8. Now with the value of car dropping so fast, the high production, and all the little quirks this car has, I was hoping there would be a slight chance I could get full trade in. This is what I was afraid of, and it may have happened. The rx8 is headed down the path of the Eclipse at the rate it's going. For mazda that's a good thing. For the common value and vintage the rx series has always had, it'sa bad thing. To me it's pretty sad if the trade in talue is rated at 27500, and I can only get like 22-23k for it. For people who bought this car with 100% intentions to keep it for a long time, it doesn't matter. I guess for mazda it would be great to make the rx8 a common everyday dime a dozen car. The problem is, with so many of these, it's a buy it and you marry it car. I'm gonna test the market and see just how gigantic of a hit I would take if I tried trading it in for a near value car. I'll post it up and let you know.

I’ve traded new cars way too many times. So I can speak from experience.

Check the KBB trade in value. Expect a dealer to offer you 2-3K below that.

You’re correct about the frustrations of car value. Almost every vehicle on the road has been hit hard by the economy slow down. The big three have contracts with the UAW that make shutting down plants not cost effective. So they just keep producing cars and minimize losses with rebates. This eventually forces competitors to offer rebates as well. Over production also leads to dealer having to offer the vehicle for invoice. So when we hear of folks getting great deals on RX-8’s or rebates, that great news for them, bad news for current owners who are thinking of selling as the price is driven down. No one will be paying more for a used car than what they can buy a new one for.

That being said, I have to disagree with the private sale comments. You should always be able to get more out of a vehicle selling it on your own as opposed to trading it in at the dealership. Go find trade in value and get disappointed (just describing what happens to me). Then realize that you can do better than that buy selling on your own. You then need to figure out how much better you can do ($1 – 3K?) and if the hassle is worth the reward. Of my last three vehicles, I traded one. The dealer came away with trade in price 25% more than two other dealers. Wasn’t sure if it was a mistake, but I took it as I thought I could only get about $1K more. The last vehicle I dealt with I literally got 33% more than trade in offer by selling it on my own.

I’d simply say, dedicate as much time to getting rid of your current vehicle as you do researching a new and you will come out with the best possible outcome.

Good luck.

your top complaint about this car seems to be that they are going to be way to common. you seem to know what car you are going to replace it with. what car are you looking to buy?

I think you misunderstood me. KBB lists the private sale value of my car at $30500. They are selling at dealership right now for $31k brand new. So I'd expect to get around 27-28k if I sold it privately. Trade in for KBB is $27500. Assuming I can't get anywhere trade in value, I guess private sale would benefit me more. It would however be a time consuming process that I can assure you of. People are trying to sell them on ebay with no luck. As for trade in value. There are many cars out there that you can easily get full trade in value for. Example: My dad's VW golf, the woman's xterra. My Mom's subaru legacy. They all got full trade [/QUOTE]

Quote: your top complaint about this car seems to be that they are going to be way to common. you seem to know what car you are going to replace it with. what car are you looking to buy?

That is not my complaint about the car. That is my complaint about trying to trade it in or sell it. The mass production, and low demand is what is hurting the value of the car. It's not a good thing when private party value matches what the car currently sells for new. I am looking at an 05 sti at the moment. No decision has been made, but I am exploring for the heck of it just to see. I figured it can't hurt, but likely I'll be stuck with car for a few years. It's not a bad deal to be stuck with an rx8, but if there's a way out, I'll find it.

The 8 is a nice car but you are absolutely right about high production and low demand.


My S2000 I paid 33k for 3 1/2 years ago and go 22k for it last week for my trade in.

I already knew the RX-8 would not maintain their value so I leased one.

I really think part of the problem is that the 8 is compared to the S2000, 350z, etc. and it is a good bit slower.

I think if the RX-8 would have had about 50 more hp, it would be the best selling sports car in it's class by far. However, this is a new engine and I expect Mazda will improve on it in '06 or later. However, what happens to the value of the old RX-8 if Mazda has a 300+ hp vehicle in '06?

Dean

Knowledge
 

some on you have no clue about how the car market and personal finance should work. some of you buy things with the idea of impressing people you dont know, or buy things before you should just to the drive the lastest and the greatest. what makes this bad is the debt. Buying anything that goes down in value on credit is a bad financial move without having a sound financial plan. the very best way to buy a car is CASH if u can............the second best way is to put down 20% and finance for no longer than 48 months. If you can put more down do it.............you never lease because you can never develop wealth leasing a car and you will be paying car payments for forever and never own anything...its best to buy a car 2-3 yrs old and let somebody else take the depreciation hit or if u buy new...you have to keep the car at least 9-10 yrs to make your money back you lost...another plus in that is you can go 4-5 yrs with no car payment.....and saving and investing that money ......while at the same time saving up for a new one..............for example take the avg car payment.......is $378 a month for 66mths...........if someone was to invest that $378 from age 25-65 they would have about 4.2-4.5 million dollars if the realized a return on 12% on their investment. so the question to you sir is........how much did u pay for your rx-8? how much do you owe? and if u find yourself upside down in your loan that simply means you did not put enough money down on the car........or 2. you paid to much for the car..........no matter if u paid msrp(meaning that was the cheapest they were selling in the market).........msrp is always to much in my opinion. $500 over invoice is the max.....a dealer should get, so if that means you have to wait a little longer to get that deal.............its worth it..........and if i person does get that deal and puts down at least 20% they will avoid negative equity.......98% of the time..........and be in a powerful financial position..........to trade, sell.........or keep..............I would advise you to check www.nada.com for your trade value and edmunds.com............and if you are really upside down..........keep the car......and sell next spring or summer..........give yourself time to try and save the portion you are negative..........Have a great day......

Thank you for the personal finance lesson. However, you miss a few points.

"You never lease a car" is a ridiculous statement. There are many reasons to lease a car.

The first reason is that a car is a depreciable asset. It's smarter to rent something that goes down in value and buy something that goes up in value. This is why I rent (lease) my car and own my house.

The second reason is because you like to drive new or newer cars. As many people have noticed, you get burned if you try to sell a new car because of the depreciation. If you lease a car, you are paying less for that depreciation because the residual will almost always be higher than the car's market value at the end of the lease. And if it isn't, simply buy the car at the residual and sell it at the market value.

You are correct that people would be smarter if they simply invested the excess money they're paying to satisfy their car fetishes. What you have to realize that in economics there is a concept call utility. Utility is the monetary and non-monetary (tangible and intangible) benefits you receive from something. The purely tangible benefit you receive from a car is transportation. If this is your only goal, your best bet is not to buy a 2-3 year-old car, but to spend $2000 or so on a 10 year old Civic or Camry, and then drive that car until it dies.

However, many of us drive cars because of the non-monetary/intangible benefits. We find certain cars fun to drive. We like a certain kind of ride. Otherwise, we wouldn't be on this message board, would we?

Finally, don't look at Edmunds, NADA or Kelly's or any of those others for finding trade-in value. Car dealers use the "ROUGH" value listed in auction books. These are the flip books that they, banks and insurance companies use.

Last lease comment... for now.

The reason why I leased an RX-8 is because I want the fun, but I don't want to have to worry about what these things are worth in three years.

If they increase engine performance the first year models are going to depreciate significantly, especially in view of the various issues the car has had. But I won't have to worry about that because I've got a lease with a high residual.

U missed some pts
 

I respect your comment heh8me..........,but dealers do use the NAda book.........thats the book that is used at auctions........(I am a wholesaler). However the numbers are set according to market(supply and demand...region of country etc........) ......so it's a little different than the consumer version, but very close............you missed my point or you did not read or understand what I was writing. You NEVER LEASE. I will not move from that financial mindset. IF your goal is to live for STATUS............and you are going to trade in a car every few yrs then, Yes I agree leasing is fine. However, if your goal is to be wealthy or be at least financially stable.......leasing is a bad idea......,because you can't get wealth or save for a strong retirement wasting money on car payments . The objective is to buy it pay it off fast and keep it.............while saving those payments and investing........and saving for another car............if u leased for 3 yrs.........versus someone who paid a car off in that same time on the same car........the person who bought it would be way ahead....financial speaking over 7-8yrs...........while you have wasted money on two leases.........lets look at an example.

ok....in 2002 a lincoln continental was worth 35,719 new..........a 1998 model(samebody style) was worth 16,500 ....ok lets say you bought the 2002 and financed it............ok say i paid cash for the 16,500 model.........ok using a 10% rate on the credit u end up paying 42k over 48 terms. over that time i am taking the money i would have been paying on payments and investing at a 10% return........i would have 29k in cash after 4 yrs...........and a car worth 14k........would u rather have the used car and the cash? or the car u bought new worth 17k now........and u took a 11k lost................with only 17k towards a another car..............versus the 36k i would have. think about it

If your only goal is to accumulate wealth...
 

If your only goal is to accumulate wealth, your best bet is to buy is to buy a fully depreciated, highly reliable car with cash.

Back when I was a grad student in finance, I bought a 10-year-old Camry with 98,000 miles on it for $2800. During the 5 years I owned it, I drove 80,000 miles, spent $150 for a new alternator, replaced the tires once, the brake pads once, paid $15 every 3000 miles for oil changes, and sold it for $700. This means that aside from maintenance, I paid $2100 to drive the car for 5 years. That's $30/month.

But it wasn't fun car to drive.

I don't drive my car for status. I drive it because it's fun.

The problem with your pay all the cash you can strategy is that when interest rates are low, you may have better places to put your money than in a depreciable asset.

Clarification on the NADA book. I thought you were talking about the yellow book that people can buy at the supermarket. You know, the one that dealer's use to justify the prices of their used cars. The book I was talking about is the wholesaler's book, the one I used when I was a lender.

right
 

exactly......now we on the same page. when u came out of school you did a wise thing.........if you would have saved the money u could have used for payments..........you could have paid cashed and still had fun, while saving and invest towards another car for cash down the road. you can buy a car brand new if u liked every 4-5 yrs with cash.......if u work a system....to make that happen, but u gotta start small and build up your cash reserves overtime.................i am not saying you bought a rx8 for status........i was just saying....in general. did not mean to imply that......hey you happy ...i am happy....... :) I feelings just lean more toward wealth building because I hate debt ........even when the interest are low....it's still debt and the car still loses value............i am still investing using dollar cost averaging in mutual funds for over 15 yrs now.........cash is the best when it comes to cars;however, someone not as stable as i am , can benefit from investing the cash and taking a 1.9, 2.9, or 3.9 or no interest deal............i agree with that........

The key words are "someone not as stable."

I agree with you on one thing. Too many young people sink too much money into their cars.

I'm one of those people who deprived himself of the fun stuff for many years (I'm 44) and made the economically sound decisions. I always drove the crappy cars that provided me with basic transportation.

A friend of mine defines midlife crisis as finally being able afford the stuff you want.

lol
 

Midlife....lol!!! well maybe.......i am 29 and frugal.......always have been..........had a ira at 15 yrs old........open my first mutual fund at 18..........paid cash for everything..........now i can pay cash for the nice cars easily. when i get your age......i guess i will be in another crisis on midlife.............what color is your 8?

Lightning Yellow!

Go here for the full story.

https://www.rx8club.com/rx-8-discussion-3/waited-16-years-my-new-rx-8-a-35325/

cool
 

so how is the navi in the 8. can it play dvd's........does it give atms etc.......voice activated?

No DVDs, but it does ATMs and Voice.

First off, there are some good points made by knowledge BUT it depends on your goals. As far as saving money, the RX-8 is not a wise choice because you know how many they have made and supply is well above demand.

However, I think leasing is a great idea if you already own another car(s). You get the advantage of a new car for three years and then get to turn it in for a new toy. Must mature people do allocate money for things they enjoy.

If you buy a car soley for financial reasons then you should buy a limited edition car, pay cash, and then drive it as few miles as possible.

However, I could have bought my 8, put down %25 - 100% but I took a look at some scenarios where the depreciation of the car could cost me more if I bought it and sold it in three years.

The lease is a nice "no worries" approach IMO since it gives you 3 years and then and out.

Dean

tell me where you are getting 12% return on investment? I have been getting negative 3% the last few years in the stock market. Better to invest in something you enjoy then lose it in the stock market.

I do agree with you that it is better to buy then to lease but only if you keep your cars past the payments. When you "rent" you always have a car payment .

The wisest thing is to buy a 2 or 3 year old used car. Let the original owner take most of the depreciation hit. I think the Rx8 will be my last new car purchase for a long time so I hope it lasts. The car has been very reliable so far.

By the way "Autotrader" is a good way to sell a car. I had my BMW Z3 listed for only 2 weeks and it sold for a lot more then the dealer was offering.

hey
 

flatso how are you? well money is something you have to be discipline with and study......i have done this for years.........to make this short.......I would recommend that you go to www.morningstar.com and research the varying mutual funds that have produced up to 20% or more returns for the last 20-40 years. there are 1000's of them........just depends on how much money u have to invest and where u are financially...............actually i have avg more than 12% .......i just used 12 as a good example.........one of my funds are up 30% the last 2 quarters alone...........and i earn 28% return the last 12 mths............i study money as i do anything else in my life. put forth the effort and i promise it will pay off. also check.....vanguard.com ....... fidelity.com ..clarkhoward.com daveramsey.com

Knowledge, will you marry me?

J/k, of coarse. You actually remind me of my husband. It took me months to negotiate buying the 8 because he kept telling me it was a bad financial decission. As if I was buying it as an investment... :rolleyes:

Some decisions are driven by emotions not finances. Life is too short..

emotions
 

emotions make you broke and cause you to make unsound decisions not only financially, but in other walks of life. you can enjoy life.........and be sound financially at the sametime. That type of thinking is why most americans are burden with Debt........;therefore, they are slaves to their jobs.........they work for that car.........they have no power...........debt weakens you........and makes u put up with stuff you would not if you were in a stronger financial position...........I enjoy my rx-8........because i have no debt except for my house.....which is good debt...they only think in life u can term such a thing, except for maybe student loans.............life is not short.......it's as long as u make it. You have to create what you want in life.......in time....not in quick, fast, and emotional feelins............Life easy when u have patience, and discipline............because when the storms do blow your way.......you can handle it better. IN life you are either in a storm......coming out of a storm........or going into one.............you make the storms weak when your financial base is strong...........

juliemae
 

so when is the wedding? :) well your hubby is a wise man indeed.............don't make other people wealthy by over paying for something going down in value....he is right. just be patient and that deal will come your way and it did...congrats to u.........enjoy

buying in nearly almost always better than leasing. but, people can do what ever they want with there money. but it does get anoying when people that lease make it sound like a smart financial idea. they go on about cars being a "depreciable asset". that is just something dumb people say to make themselves sound smart.
my question to them would be this, do you rent or buy your tv, furniture, clothes???

excellent
 

excellent supporting argument

Knowledge,

I peronsally have no debt and have xx amount of money allocated for fun, enjoyment, you know those things that make life better. I could easily get enough credit to buy a 80,000 +car but common sense overrides emotion at a certain threshhold
However, if you seem not to see anyone elses point of view. You are telling everyone that leasing is bad.

I am trying to respect your point of view but it appears you cannot respect anyone elses.

Yes, some people overextend themselves and lease cars to keep their payments down sometimes.

However, some people carefully consider both options and leasing makes more sense in certain cirumstances.

Dean

One other point. I was reviewing my numbers. My car retails for 34k. I got them down a great deal, I will be paying approximately 10,000 for the lease over the next thrIee yearst

Lets say I purchased the car for 29.5 and financed it for 48 months. I would have paid off the car in 4 years. The value of the RX-8 has dropped signifcantly in the last 6 months. In 4 years, the car would need to be worth 19k for me to break even on it. I am sorry but I think the car with be worth 15k in 4 years and that is speculation on my part . This means I will be paying more for the car by buying than leasing it. Not to mention that it is listed as my company car which I do decut the payments from.

You just cant say buying is always better than leasing.

huh
 

but u will going right back into payments. you guys are missing the point. with that paid for 15k-18k car if u save 4 more yrs with that note....u can have 30k in cash..........i am against payments period. leasing or buying..............but leasing is worst.......i respect opinion just dont agree one bit..........the power is in saving and investing......not payments.....

lease
 

leasing is fine if u wanna drive a new car every 3 yrs............and u can stay under the miles.........is wiser than buying........because if u trade in that short time and paid too much and did not put enough money down...u would be upside down........if u read all the posts..........u will see i have said this earlier.............if u want debt be my guest..........

Very good point. In the case of the rx8, leasing may actually be a good thing. For those who plan on keeping there car long after warranty wears off, naturally leasing an rx8 would be utterly stupid. If you drive 12k miles or less per year, you don't having the buredn of owning a car, and you trade your car in every 3-4 years for a new one, leasing isn't a bad choice at all. I for one am getting a reality check on the value of rx8. It's dropping fast. I am still waiting for subaru to get back to me on trade in. KBB says $27500. They will likely offer me 25k for it. Msrp was 36k, car is 6 months old with only 3100 miles on it, and in new condition. You won't see that with other cars like the s2000, 350z, ect. I do not want to imagine how bad it's going to get when an improved high hp rx8 comes out. If there's ever a good time to lease a car, it's now and it's the rx8. If you bought your rx8 for enjoyment for many years to come, and plan on driving car straight to it's buriel, then you have no worries about the current depreciation of rx8. For dean2900, leasing was about the smartest thing to do. This is why I am tyring to get out now, trade it in for an sti, and cut my losses before they get worse, then wait patiently for the better rx8 to come out. If I didn't care about power, naturally this wouldn't even be a concern. For anyone who is planning to buy an rx8 and trade it in in 4 years, I strongly suggest you check out the leasing deals, because it can ultimately avoid the burden of the rapid declining value of rx8.

I didn't lease is because I can afford the car outright. If a new car comes out, and I want it, I'll just buy that car too. Why lease it? It's basically renting someone else's car for 3+ years... then returning it. I'd rather pay a bit more and just keep the darn thing after 3+ years.

Besides, if you buy a car thinking it's an Investment, that's your problem right there. Another thing to note is the fact that you are enjoying the car while you're driving it... how much of a value do you put on that?

15k in 4 years... a 50% drop in value of a car in 4 years with no accidents? I really hope you don't invest in the stock market without some sort of guidance.

And dean2900... you said you were going to pay approx. 10k for the lease over the next three years... what was your down on it? 5k? If you didn't have to put a down, that's about 250-270 each month payment depending on your rate. On top of that, it's a 34k car... which I would assume is the GT Navigation package... so that is obviously BS right there if you didn't have to put a really high down payment to offset the 10k leftover.

Ya got me. Clothing depreciates over time. In fact, for the most part, it's worth nothing (in terms of market value) once you take it home.

On the other hand, my jeans cost me $25, while my car cost more than $25,000.

I leased this car instead of buying it because I don't know what these things are going to be worth after 3 years. I don't know if the model will succeed or if it will be a lemon. If I love the car, I'll buy it off the lease for $17.8k. If that happens, I'll have spent $13k on lease payments, bringing the total cost of the car to around $31k. The invoice on the car is $30.3k. So, I make out OK if I decide to buy it. And if I buy it, it will be with cash -- unless banks are still giving away free money. So, I will have bought the car virtually interest-free without having to dish out the cash up front. If I don't like the car after three years, I can walk away from it without having to worry about what I can get for it if it depreciates significantly. Likewise if it depreciates significantly, and I want to buy it, I can cut a deal with my bank for a better buyout than the residual -- because the bank will want to reduce its exposure. Either way, the choice is mine.

And I paid $0 out of pocket when I got my lease.

By the way, while we're talking about financial common sense, how many of you paid the extra grand or so beyond the price of the touring package for the grand touring packages leather seats?

We pay the money because it's fun to drive these cars. If I want to drive something different in a few years, I don't want to have to worry about my trade-in. I love my car, but I think the market value of these things in 3 years will be a lot less than the lease residuals. The 2004's will always have the stigma of being first year cars, and they will ultimately have less power than subsequent models.

FYI: The capital cost of my lease was $3000 below invoice because of dealer incentives. The best deal I was able to negotiate on a purchase was $500 below invoice.

So, leasing got a big head start.

Of course buying a car is not an investment. However, for people who trade their cars in every 4 years, which there are MANY MANY people who do, it's smart to research the depreciation of a car if you care about how much you lose. I was too niave to realize that the edmunds chart showing the rx8 to hold more of it's value was not accurate, because car wasn't out long enough. I thought that buying car outright was a smart move because I'd still have a decent value when trading car in in 4 years. it was afterall rated one of the best in resale value. My how things have changed FAST. Now suddenly I see the car dropping like a mitsubishi eclipse, and I'm gonna end up paying a ton more for a new car in four years. I guess this is the residual effect of getting these at invoice or under invoice deals, and a massively produced first year car. This would not be a problem if the rx8 could compete performance wise with it's competitors, and they didn't overproduce the car to a point where there was no demand for it. This car is getting me by until a much better rx8 comes out. Trading it in now may be better if the trend of mass production continues by mazda, and the car gets better. The STI will be an easy car to sell in three years rather then trade it in. It's a very limited production car, so people will be hunting for it in the used car market. Maybe the rx8 will level off and have a demand, but I find it very unlikely. I guessit's bittersweet. It's nice to see Mazda going all out with the rotary, trying to push it into a common market and make it popular. At same time, it's sad to see what was once a rare rx series turned into a dime a dozen car that will plummet in demand and value.

The solution is make lots of money save some and have fun with the rest... Don't worry about what the RX8 will be worth in a few years drive it and enjoy it...

Ok you are saying you are getting your car worth 30.3k invoice for lease at about 13k with $0 down. Later on, after the 3 years you would need to only pay 17.8k and buy it off the lease. Making the total 31k.

How you managed that is beyond me. Did you check your interest % on this car regarding your payment? You sure it's 17.8k, to just pay off the rest of the car AFTER the 3 year lease? If ALL Leases were like this, I'm sure EVERYONE would just lease their car.

Total Value invoice : 30.3k
Would have made payments after 3 years on Lease : 13k
Would only have to pay after 3 years Lease remainder to own car : 17.8k

Total at the END of the 3 years IF you choose to buy : Only 30.8k? Uhhh..

"MANY MANY people...." You sure about this? The only people I've known to lease are... 1) People can't afford the car, so they lease. 2) People who will drive the car very little... more of a weekend or joy ride car.

If you want the "Rare" STi like you said, come to California, here at the local dealership there are 22 on the lot, all colors, and it's ranging from 29k-33k sticker price. Or you could buy used ones for 24-26k depending on the mileage. For a car supposedly only suppose to have a 300 Per month limit, my dealership here has 22 on the lot. 14 new ones.

If you were to get a JDM 2002 STi it would be about 15k-17k.

I suppose if you are worried about how much you would want to sell the car back after 3-4 years... you can go with the limited 2004 STi.

I didn't include tax on either the lease or purchase to simplify things. Aside from that, you have my lease. The remainder of the numbers are exactly correct per the terms of my lease agreement.

Outlaw, do you understand what you are paying on a lease? You are paying the difference between the sales price of the car and the estimated value of the end of the lease period or residual. In other words, you are paying for the car's projected depreciation over ther term of the lease plus a finance charge based on a money factor (variation of interest rate). The narrower the spread between sales price and residual, the lower the lease payment because you are showing less depreciation.

Why is my lease payment so low? Reasonable money factor, great lease incentive and a decent residual. The residual is based on a percent of the MSRP, not the sales price. In my case the residual on an RX-8 with GT and navy is $17,800, based off of a MSRP of $32,800. However, the sales price of my leased car is $3000 below invoice. I negotiated a sales price of $500 below invoice. In addition, Mazda had another $2500 in incentives, bringing my lease price to $3000 below. As a result, my sales price (capital cost) was in the mid-$27k area, leaving me less than $10,000 in car to depreciate over the 36 month period. This incentive was only available for leases, not purchases. The numbers check out.

I am a 44-year-old IT pro/financial analyst who brokers car deals part time, and I know how to read and negotiate a lease.

One reason more people don't get great lease deals is that don't understand where a lease payment comes from. As a result, the lease process becomes a black box and they take what they think is a good deal from the salesman. On my last lease (an Audi A6), the sales manager came in because I was giving my salesman too much resistence on price. So, the manager comes in and charitably offers to knock another $5/month off the lease payment. I looked at my salesman and asked him if he knew how to calculate a lease price with a pen and a calculator. He said no, and I told him that I would show him. I showed them that their lease price was based on a sales price of 7% over invoice. I told him that I would give him 1% over invoice, and refigured the lease equation to show that the new price would knock around $80/month off of the lease payment. We settled at a payment based on 2.2% over invoice (Audi's usually go for 4-6% over invoice).

My point is not to show you how clever I am, but to say that most of you understand how to negotiate a purchase, but don't understand where the lease numbers come from. Your salesman certainly don't know where they come from. So, if you learn how to derive the number (go to edmunds.com), you can be in a better posistion to negotiate a good lease deal. If you don't take the sales price listed in the paper, why would you take the offered lease payment.

Anyway, the numbers in my previous post are correct. I was shocked when I saw what Mazda was offering, and that's why I grabbed the deal. It was too cheap not to.

And my lease allows me 15k miles per year. So, I'm not joy riding. And I could have afforded the purchase. It was simply better for me to lease because of the incentives that were offered and the fact that I like the car, but am very concerned about what it might be worth in three years. If it holds value well and I still like it, I can buy it out for the residual amount.

Finally, big lease incentives are frequently offered to unload excess inventory when cars aren't selling. Like the end of the model year on an over-produced car. Subaru isn't offering lease deals on the STI, VW isn't on the R32 (my second place car), and Audi sure as hell isn't on the S4 (the car I would have loved to have drived).

However, if Mazda hadn't offered this great deal, I would have bought a 2001 or 2002 S4. You know, the 2-3 year-old car that has weathered its big depreciation hit.

You didn't read correctly. Many many people trade their cars in within a 4 year period. That's purchasing alone. Combine all the leases, and it makes up a massive majority of all new car owners. Ask any dealer, they will confirm it. Then again, it's common knowledge, so why try and argue it. Lots of people who just buy, put 40-60k miles on it, then don't want to do maintanence and take easy way out. Hell my entire neighborhood does it. Every 3 to 4 years they have a new car. it's the costly, yet easy way out.
As for rarity of sti, for 05 they may have produced alot due to it's success. If you compare it to the rx8, it's not even close. Here, the sti is rare for whatever reason. Each dealer only has 2 to 3 in stock. Maybe it's because they are selling well here. I don't know. The rx8 dealer I went to had over 90 rx8s in stock when I got mine. It was INSANE. Even now they still have over 50 soon to be leftover 04s that are selling below invoice. I'm sure at these current prices they are selling fast. I bet if you walk into a dealership interested in an rx8, they'll beg you not to leave. :)

Welps Viking, you convinced yourself to get the STi... good luck on that lease, purchase or however you end up getting the car.

I'm sure the dealership here has more available simply because it is California,... Los Angeles area... Home of the Import Showoff of the nation.

heh8me, I guess I don't mind the Lease vs Purchase debate because I got my car for 28k GT Silver. For a car I knew I would be driving well over the 12k-15k per year, I went for buying the car. Besides it's only 28k + tax and license. I'll potentially look into Leasing the 2005 NSX, but most likely I'll just buy that car too. I haven't stayed under 25k per year miles on a car, so leasing wouldn't even be feasible.

Yes and No. I want the sti over the rx8 until a better rx8 comes out, but it is out of my hands. I refuse to take too big of a hit. In fact my magic number on this trade is low. I got a quote of $31500 on an 05 sti with all the additional goodies. Now, the dealer needs to give me 27k on a trade in (kbb is $27500), making my total cost $4500 plus my used rx8 to get sti. Do you actually think that is happening? Unlikely, but that is my criteria, and if it doesn't meet that I walk. The sti would only be a temprary fix until mazda can make this rx8 compete with the other cars in it's class. I have a feeling they will, so I'll just wait it out, either with my current rx8, or with an sti. NO big deal to me, so if dealer bites, great, if not, I'll keep my rx8 until the improved rx8 arrives. :)

STIs are not selling well, after the initial boom they are dead in the water and many are for sale used... Our dealership has to give them away at this point...

I test drove the STI and didn't like it. The ride is too unforgiving. And in terms of design, no matter how you dress it up, it's still an Impreza.

Outlaw, if you or anyone is planning on driving more than 15k per year, you should definitely buy. Depreciation and lease payments increase significantly when you go from 15k to 18k miles per year.

Actually most lease mileage limits are 10k 12k or 15k if you go over that you need to buy... The lower the mileage the better the rate, and don't go over or you will take a big hit at the end of the lease...

You can lease for almost any term. They may not advertise it, but they can get it for you. But if you go long, you had better be prepared to pay.

Going from 12k to 15k per year added about $9/month onto the lease. Going from 15k to 18k would have added $44/month.