Dealer Fee
12-07-2005, 11:47 AM
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Dealer Fee
I've been quoted a $699 "dealer fee" on top of an $87 documentation fee for a new 2005 RX-8 (in S. Florida).
This seems high to me -- can anyone give me guidance -- what is such a fee for anyway?
This seems high to me -- can anyone give me guidance -- what is such a fee for anyway?
12-07-2005, 11:58 AM
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Thats pure padding. Doesnt need to be there, but if you got deals on other things he's just protecting his bottom line.
Whats the price you got and for which options. He might just be totally fleecing you.
Whats the price you got and for which options. He might just be totally fleecing you.
12-07-2005, 12:45 PM
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As hemanrulez said, dealer fee is always padding. The dealer fee should be zero. Counter-offer that to them.. 
I've seen it before where it was $25.. that IMHO isn't worth arguing about.. >$100 is.. (Also usually the documentation fee is also padding as there is no such thing. So really the dealer wants $786 from you as a "you were dumb enough to buy from me fee".)
I've seen it before where it was $25.. that IMHO isn't worth arguing about.. >$100 is..
(Also usually the documentation fee is also padding as there is no such thing. So really the dealer wants $786 from you as a "you were dumb enough to buy from me fee".)
12-07-2005, 01:25 PM
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Originally Posted by siamtwin
I've been quoted a $699 "dealer fee" on top of an $87 documentation fee for a new 2005 RX-8 (in S. Florida).
This seems high to me -- can anyone give me guidance -- what is such a fee for anyway?
This seems high to me -- can anyone give me guidance -- what is such a fee for anyway?
12-07-2005, 01:27 PM
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Dude give us the price and the options and I'll tell you if he was fleecing you or not.
Check my thread out on the Purchasing forum
https://www.rx8club.com/purchasing-financing-insurance-56/buying-04-05-rx-8-a-76378/
Check my thread out on the Purchasing forum
https://www.rx8club.com/purchasing-financing-insurance-56/buying-04-05-rx-8-a-76378/
12-07-2005, 01:43 PM
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thanks to all for input.
hemanrulez: i was quoted $29,299 + tax + tags + the $786 in "fees" for new 05 6 speed manual with GT pkg, appearance pkg, rotary accent pkg, CD changer, spare kit, spoiler, all weather flr mats, door edge guards, moonroof deflector.
CD changer and spoiler are specified as "dealer installed" -- i don't know if they are usually factory installed ???
hemanrulez: i was quoted $29,299 + tax + tags + the $786 in "fees" for new 05 6 speed manual with GT pkg, appearance pkg, rotary accent pkg, CD changer, spare kit, spoiler, all weather flr mats, door edge guards, moonroof deflector.
CD changer and spoiler are specified as "dealer installed" -- i don't know if they are usually factory installed ???
12-07-2005, 01:48 PM
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haha big time fleecer here.
You should be able to get a better quote by just becoming a costco member and asking their auto club to get you a quote. Its usually $300-$400 over invoice.
This guy is selling you an RX-8 at MSRP. he's taking you for a big time ride.
Remember you can easily go under invoice if you try hard.
Post the dealers name and the salesman name on the Good guy/Bad guy forum so other buyers from Florida can stay away.
https://www.rx8club.com/good-guy-bad-guy-74/
You should be able to get a better quote by just becoming a costco member and asking their auto club to get you a quote. Its usually $300-$400 over invoice.
This guy is selling you an RX-8 at MSRP. he's taking you for a big time ride.
Remember you can easily go under invoice if you try hard.
Post the dealers name and the salesman name on the Good guy/Bad guy forum so other buyers from Florida can stay away.
https://www.rx8club.com/good-guy-bad-guy-74/
12-07-2005, 01:55 PM
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why do you say he's quoting at MSRP? when i plug that model = options in at mazda usa website i get MSRP of 34,194. so even with the bogus fees the price is about 30,000, or 4,000 below MSRP. i am missing something?
12-07-2005, 02:00 PM
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Dude, all I'm telling you is that you that you can do better. If you wanna go and buy from him go ahead.
About the MSRP. i just assumed it to be around there. I wasnt sure of the exact $ amount.
About the MSRP. i just assumed it to be around there. I wasnt sure of the exact $ amount.
12-07-2005, 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted by hemanrulez
About the MSRP. i just assumed it to be around there. I wasnt sure of the exact $ amount.
12-07-2005, 02:19 PM
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hemanrulez: i'm sure you're right that i could do better if i push the negotiations (haven't really done that yet). but i don't want to smear the dealer on the web if he doesn't deserve it.
12-08-2005, 02:13 PM
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Originally Posted by siamtwin
why do you say he's quoting at MSRP? when i plug that model = options in at mazda usa website i get MSRP of 34,194. so even with the bogus fees the price is about 30,000, or 4,000 below MSRP. i am missing something?
If you are serious about closing a deal ask for a copy of the "Mazda North American Operations Vehicle Invoice". My dealer faxed it to me to support his assertion of "x-dollars under MSRP". The invoice should show an "Invoice Amt" column and a "Retail Amt" column; each showing the base price of the car and a line item for every option or package, plus the separate transportation fee and 'dealer fee' or 'local assessment'.
You should only care about the bottom line. What if they offer to sell you the car for $5 plus a $20,000 dealer fee? Take it, right?
In my case the MSRP was $34,375 and the invoice was $31,313. Both included a $520 transportation charge and a $100 "Baltimore Assessment" was present in the invoice column only.
Now, I see two possible strategies for getting the price you want -
1) Argue each and every line item separately. Seems needlessly complicated to me - you're buying 1 car, not a bag of parts.
2) Negotiate a bottom line deal (typically minus tax, tags and registration, but some dealers like to negotiate 'out-the-door' cost).
In my case they made me a flat offer of $25,995 'car cost' over the phone (for a 2004 purchased in September 2005) and I said, "I'll be right there." On top of that I paid 8% NY state tax and $90 to the NY DMV and $35 to the MD for a 30-day tag (one of those things not worth arguing).
So, my 'car cost' was over $8,000 below MSRP. Did I pay the $520 transportation charge or not? Did I pay the $100 Baltimore Assessment or not?
I expect you have a number in mind that you want to pay. Make them meet it or walk away and don't worry about the cost breakdown too much. It's fine to understand, but if you get below invoice price you don't care what the cost breakdown actually is - it's still a good deal.
What you want to beware of is a dealer who adds such fees on top of the negotiated price. Any dealer who adds anything besides tax, tags or registration to a negotiated price is trying to pull something.
Last edited by Cool-Blue-Dad; 12-08-2005 at 02:15 PM.
12-08-2005, 10:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Cool-Blue-Dad
Siamtwin, my estimate for MSRP is over $34,000. I would agree you're about $4,000 below invoice which is well into the "good deal" territory.
If you are serious about closing a deal ask for a copy of the "Mazda North American Operations Vehicle Invoice". My dealer faxed it to me to support his assertion of "x-dollars under MSRP". The invoice should show an "Invoice Amt" column and a "Retail Amt" column; each showing the base price of the car and a line item for every option or package, plus the separate transportation fee and 'dealer fee' or 'local assessment'.
You should only care about the bottom line. What if they offer to sell you the car for $5 plus a $20,000 dealer fee? Take it, right?
In my case the MSRP was $34,375 and the invoice was $31,313. Both included a $520 transportation charge and a $100 "Baltimore Assessment" was present in the invoice column only.
Now, I see two possible strategies for getting the price you want -
1) Argue each and every line item separately. Seems needlessly complicated to me - you're buying 1 car, not a bag of parts.
2) Negotiate a bottom line deal (typically minus tax, tags and registration, but some dealers like to negotiate 'out-the-door' cost).
In my case they made me a flat offer of $25,995 'car cost' over the phone (for a 2004 purchased in September 2005) and I said, "I'll be right there." On top of that I paid 8% NY state tax and $90 to the NY DMV and $35 to the MD for a 30-day tag (one of those things not worth arguing).
So, my 'car cost' was over $8,000 below MSRP. Did I pay the $520 transportation charge or not? Did I pay the $100 Baltimore Assessment or not?
I expect you have a number in mind that you want to pay. Make them meet it or walk away and don't worry about the cost breakdown too much. It's fine to understand, but if you get below invoice price you don't care what the cost breakdown actually is - it's still a good deal.
What you want to beware of is a dealer who adds such fees on top of the negotiated price. Any dealer who adds anything besides tax, tags or registration to a negotiated price is trying to pull something.
If you are serious about closing a deal ask for a copy of the "Mazda North American Operations Vehicle Invoice". My dealer faxed it to me to support his assertion of "x-dollars under MSRP". The invoice should show an "Invoice Amt" column and a "Retail Amt" column; each showing the base price of the car and a line item for every option or package, plus the separate transportation fee and 'dealer fee' or 'local assessment'.
You should only care about the bottom line. What if they offer to sell you the car for $5 plus a $20,000 dealer fee? Take it, right?
In my case the MSRP was $34,375 and the invoice was $31,313. Both included a $520 transportation charge and a $100 "Baltimore Assessment" was present in the invoice column only.
Now, I see two possible strategies for getting the price you want -
1) Argue each and every line item separately. Seems needlessly complicated to me - you're buying 1 car, not a bag of parts.
2) Negotiate a bottom line deal (typically minus tax, tags and registration, but some dealers like to negotiate 'out-the-door' cost).
In my case they made me a flat offer of $25,995 'car cost' over the phone (for a 2004 purchased in September 2005) and I said, "I'll be right there." On top of that I paid 8% NY state tax and $90 to the NY DMV and $35 to the MD for a 30-day tag (one of those things not worth arguing).
So, my 'car cost' was over $8,000 below MSRP. Did I pay the $520 transportation charge or not? Did I pay the $100 Baltimore Assessment or not?
I expect you have a number in mind that you want to pay. Make them meet it or walk away and don't worry about the cost breakdown too much. It's fine to understand, but if you get below invoice price you don't care what the cost breakdown actually is - it's still a good deal.
What you want to beware of is a dealer who adds such fees on top of the negotiated price. Any dealer who adds anything besides tax, tags or registration to a negotiated price is trying to pull something.
IMO theres no reason NOT to argue about $35, Blue Dad. Its your money and if you can save some why not? I guess Im just different about money, must come from my dad. Last time he bought a vehicle he walked out when they refused to try to find the reason behind a $5 fee. The dealership said "its only $5, dont worry about it, afterall your spending 24k already" to which my dad replied "yes Ill be spending 24k but not here" and he got up and started out the door. Before he got totally out the building the guy was chasing after us saying he would find the answer.
Good luck buying your car Siamtwin
12-08-2005, 10:45 PM
#16
In Florida the dealer is required to charge the dealer fee on all cars. If you look at the sales invoice you will probably notice that it is preprinted. However that doesn't mean that the rest of the price is not negotiable. Just consider the total and don't worry how they got it.
All dealers have a preset dealer fee, the problem is that they usually will not disclose that until the last minute (or later). A few years ago I was buying a Toyota and I got the price in writing with TT&F at the end of the quote. I assumed (my mistake) that that was for tax, tag and fees (meaning title related fees). I was wrong. Even though I asked many times if there were any other fees and was told no. I never got the total of TT&F in writing. It was 11 pm and I was at the dealer when I realized what they were doing. I was ready to walk when they agreed to split the fee. But the invoice still showed the total fee (preprinted of course) but the total was reduced.
Bottom line - don't try to negotiate the dealer fee (at least in Florida) you will not succeed. But the price can always come down to compensate. And be sure to ask what their dealer fee is, I have seen them from 295 to 795 in the Orlando area.
All dealers have a preset dealer fee, the problem is that they usually will not disclose that until the last minute (or later). A few years ago I was buying a Toyota and I got the price in writing with TT&F at the end of the quote. I assumed (my mistake) that that was for tax, tag and fees (meaning title related fees). I was wrong. Even though I asked many times if there were any other fees and was told no. I never got the total of TT&F in writing. It was 11 pm and I was at the dealer when I realized what they were doing. I was ready to walk when they agreed to split the fee. But the invoice still showed the total fee (preprinted of course) but the total was reduced.
Bottom line - don't try to negotiate the dealer fee (at least in Florida) you will not succeed. But the price can always come down to compensate. And be sure to ask what their dealer fee is, I have seen them from 295 to 795 in the Orlando area.
12-08-2005, 11:37 PM
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Originally Posted by SDB
In Florida the dealer is required to charge the dealer fee on all cars. If you look at the sales invoice you will probably notice that it is preprinted. However that doesn't mean that the rest of the price is not negotiable. Just consider the total and don't worry how they got it.
Preprinting is meaningless crap. I have been negotiating contracts of all kinds for over 30 years and my favorite part is crossing off every preprinted item I don't like. Preprinting is only there for the convenience and protection of the party handing you the contract. You can buy a house on the back of a used napkin if the parties agree to what gets written on it.
12-09-2005, 09:36 AM
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Originally Posted by beachdog
Sorry friend, but that is one of the funniest things that I have read in a long time. Are you a car or real estate salesman?
Preprinting is meaningless crap. I have been negotiating contracts of all kinds for over 30 years and my favorite part is crossing off every preprinted item I don't like. Preprinting is only there for the convenience and protection of the party handing you the contract. You can buy a house on the back of a used napkin if the parties agree to what gets written on it.
Preprinting is meaningless crap. I have been negotiating contracts of all kinds for over 30 years and my favorite part is crossing off every preprinted item I don't like. Preprinting is only there for the convenience and protection of the party handing you the contract. You can buy a house on the back of a used napkin if the parties agree to what gets written on it.
12-09-2005, 10:45 AM
#20
Originally Posted by Asmoran
Yep - and it's also used to "sucker" you into believing that it's not negotiable. If they refuse to drop it, make them take it out of the price of the car. They may not be able to take it off the paperwork, but you don't have to pay it.
That is exactly what I said. Just look at the total price when comparing among dealers.
12-09-2005, 07:30 PM
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I, for one, refuse to give the dealer even $1 more than I have to.
Those "doc fees" are a croc of you know what. They can be negotiated.
If they refuse to lower it to an acceptable amount, let your feet do the walkin'.
They'll come running after you as you try to leave.
And if they don't.... you can always come back tomorrow! The same deal will still be there, but at least you know that's what it will take to buy the car.
Remember, there is a $1,500 rebate right now, and another $1k rebate if financed through Mazda Credit ( you can pay off loan in 3 months without penalty, and still get the $1k ).
Those "doc fees" are a croc of you know what. They can be negotiated.
If they refuse to lower it to an acceptable amount, let your feet do the walkin'.
They'll come running after you as you try to leave.
And if they don't.... you can always come back tomorrow! The same deal will still be there, but at least you know that's what it will take to buy the car.
Remember, there is a $1,500 rebate right now, and another $1k rebate if financed through Mazda Credit ( you can pay off loan in 3 months without penalty, and still get the $1k ).
12-11-2005, 01:23 PM
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Ended up paying about $6k under MSRP (before tax and tags) for a new 2005 titanium grey, 6MT, GT package, appearance package, rotary accent package, 6 cd changer, a-w floor mats.
Thrilled to be a RX-8 owner and thanks again for the buying advice!
Thrilled to be a RX-8 owner and thanks again for the buying advice!
12-12-2005, 09:42 AM
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Originally Posted by siamtwin
Ended up paying about $6k under MSRP (before tax and tags) for a new 2005 titanium grey, 6MT, GT package, appearance package, rotary accent package, 6 cd changer, a-w floor mats.
Thrilled to be a RX-8 owner and thanks again for the buying advice!
Thrilled to be a RX-8 owner and thanks again for the buying advice!
12-13-2005, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by buzzardsluck
IMO theres no reason NOT to argue about $35, Blue Dad. Its your money and if you can save some why not? I guess Im just different about money, must come from my dad.
I wouldn't stand for a dealer adding an arbitrary $600 fee or even a $5 fee after we had agreed to a price. My point was that the break-down doesn't matter if you get the price you want. My point was that it doesn't matter to you if you negotiate out a $600 fee or negotiate $600 off the price of the car because either results in the same total. However, if the dealership has certain fixed methods of doing their accounting it might matter to them - they may refuse to drop the documentation fee, but be willing to drop the price of the car. It sounds quite mad, but if you get the same 'out the door cost' would you care? No, you shouldn't.