yudkib

iTrader: (1)

So I just sold my Mazdaspeed Protege and am ready (and hoping) to keep it in the Mazda family. I've done plenty of reading on the RX-8 and know a decent amount, but theres a few things I'm wondering as I prepare to go test drive a couple...
FYI: I'm in central CT, I'm trying to find a loaded 8 (GT + Nav) for ~$10k. theres been a few in that ballpark around here recently. Most have ~70k on them, and at this point, I don't think I would keep the 8 past 100k unless i get a replacement engine while I own it. I just don't think I could trust this engine outside of warranty unless I was the only person to baby it.

To cut to the chase - what I know about:
Warranty Extension.
Oil concerns - I know about premix and know I will probably go with 5w30 or 10w30 dino oil when i get mine. i know nothing ive read recommends mobil 1
Flooding issues, apex seals, etc. revised starter, plugs, coils for flooding. PCM flashes.
"what to look for" when buying
TSB's, MSP16, the other four recalls on 04's that were mailed to owners (ball joints, airbags, engine/coolant, and the tank insulator)


On to what I don't know.
I'm wondering what should constitute an immediate "deal breaker". Keep in mind - most of the cars I'm looking at are 04's, and moderately high miles for a first engine.
If a private seller told you that his car didn't burn any oil, do you immediately walk away? Obviously, it shows the owner is an idiot, but if i'm looking at ones still inside the extended warranty at least I'm covered. If the engine goes I have other ways to get around, and I've read the manufactured engines are now better than factory.
What if he said he was using Mobil 1 for the life of the car? At least this shows he "thinks" he took care of it, although hes missing that even Mobil says not to use M1 in rotaries.
Obviously, if the PO did the recalls it shows he cared about it - at least the minimum. But if they didnt, and the engine let go, would that be so bad? Then I do recalls and get a replacement engine. Again, remember the age/mileage of the vehicles I'm looking at.
Is buying from a semi-informed seller better or worse than a crapshoot at a dealership? Recall the mobil 1 scenario - I know this owner did the recalls. If I go to a dealership, I have no clue how the PO treated the car. I can find out when the recalls were done with a phonecall to Mazda, but that's just half the story. So whats worse? An off-the-lot 8, or the "ignorant but caring" previous owner?
Would you even buy an 8 from a dealer? What about a wholesaler?

my last couple questions are about warrantied replacement stuff and recalls.
It seems that you are entitled to a set of plugs if you need them when you go in to get the MSP16 flash, but not coils, not a starter, and not a battery. In fact, it looks like in order to get those, the 04 still had to be under the 5/60k warranty... and none are anymore. Last question is Were the starter/battery/coils recalled for free replacement under the 8/100k, or only while the car was under factory warranty? basically, if i get an 8 today, am I entitled to service on any of those if i have an issue? I could DIY if I needed to - I DIY'ed everything on my MSP, but then I wont get free parts.

i know its a lot, but take a minute and answer whatever you're willing to. thanks in advance for the help!

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

I would probably ask the following:
1. Who does the oil changes, with what oil, and at what intervals?
2. Does this car still have the original plugs, coils, and wires?
3. Other maintenance - dealer maintained or owner maintained?
4. Has the car ever been overheated or flooded?
5. Has the car ever been in an accident (carfax)?

If I were buying an Rx8 now, I'd probably be avoiding 04s, even ones with replacement engines. The mazda remans are ok I suppose, but most dealers seem to be fairly rotary ignorant. If the previous owner was on top of the oil situation and never overheated it, the engine is probably fine. I generally try not to buy cars from younger drivers, but YMMV. A flooded car isn't too big a deal, but the conversation might get you some information.

Really, you could just drive the car and get a compression test. If the tranny seems solid with good clutch action and the compression numbers are solid, that's about as best an indication you can get.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

im not super-familiar with ALL the teething issue on the 04's, but i do know they exist. aside from the four recalls (i want to say most were exclusive to 04's) and the obvious engine problems, what other issues did they frequently run into?

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

Well, structurally, I don't know if there are any design changes from 04-05 at all, but the initial flashes weren't the greatest. An 04 would have been driven on poor flashes for longer than an 05. Mostly, I'd just save 04s were under-oiled for the first year until they found a flash that was both emissions legal and engine friendly enough. However, if you find an 04 that puts up good compression, it's going to be just as good as an 05/06 with equal compression.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

i had wondered about that. it seemed like most of it was just engine/PCM related - which is... well it is what it is. i planned to compression test whatever one i was seriously interested in buying, and maybe doing coils/wires/plugs while i was down there if the numbers were good.
i know MSP16 specified that an oddball vacuum test vs. RPM and voltage (or something like that) was the preferred way to determine if a reman was in order, but would compression numbers give a good indication of a pass/fail situation?

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

Hmmm.... wut?

A rotary compression test and a standard compression test are not the same. If a dealer does a rotary compression test, they are going to give you 6 numbers in the single digit range. 8 is pretty good, 5 is bad. I'm not sure what the peak value is offhand. Also, the results require an RPM. The tester will be able to separate the 3 different faces of the rotor for 3 values per rotor. If you got 8,5,5 for one rotor, you'd know the sealing between the two 5 faces is pretty poor. If you took a standard compression tester for a reciprocating engine and tried to use it, I'm not sure if the results you got would mean anything.

Also, if you are going to change plugs/wires/coils, don't have the dealer do it. It's an hour of labor and maybe $200 in parts. The dealer will charge you $400. People in your local 8 club would probably do it in exchange for some pizza.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

ah - makes sense. also makes sense that i cant do plugs/coils/wires while i'm doing a compression, because 1.) i cant do said compression test, 2.) im not paying the dealer while theyre doing the test.

is there any way to determine the condition of the engine outside a comp test (or the vacuum voltage test)? and what would one of those two tests usually run from a stealership? would they run the vacuum voltage test for free even if the recall/PCM flash was already issued?

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

There are subtle hints - how fast the car starts, how much vacuum it pulls at idle, color of the spark plugs, gas mileage. If the previous owner keeps oil in the car and premixes, you may be fine, but it's kind of a crap shoot. Some people premix heavily, don't drive hard enough, and build up crap in the engine. Then you seafoam it and it's fixed. Some people don't premix, drive the crap out of it, and the engine is rock solid at 60k. Some of this is not rotary specific though, but a compression test on a reciprocating engine is generally pretty simple.

Used sports/sporty cars are generally a mine field.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

well, that kind of goes back to what i was saying. what if they dont keep oil in the trunk, or claim it didnt burn oil, or use mobil 1... at what point do you walk away? and is someone using mobil 1 better or worse than your average dealer trade-in? obviously theres no way of KNOWING, but id think someone who "thought" they were taking care of the car is better than your average rx8 owner... for instance - im sure the majority of people dont premix. and those that do probably command top dollar for their 8... in any case, im just looking for ways to spot one that may have been taken care of if i go through an inventory.

ill have to take a look at normal vac readings at idle. i have a handheld vac gauge from when i was doing composite layup, and having capped ports on the intake mani would make it a breeze to test. other suggestions like that would be fantastic.

maxxdamigz

iTrader: (1)

Mazda recommends 5/20 oil. I believe they also state to avoid synthetics. Mobil 1 states that it isn't recommended for rotaries (does it?).

A lot of people on this forum do not run 5/20, myself included. I think a fair number also use synthetics (especially with the Sohn adapter). Maybe some of those are even using Mobil 1. Now if you have 10 cars with the same price/mileage, maybe you shy away from one or the other, but if the price/compression were right, I'd have a hard time passing on a car simply because it had mobil 1 in it.

On the vac test, I think 20" is prime. I don't think it'll help too much, but if an engine pulls really crappy vacuum, that would be a flag.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

well, unfortunately, that doesnt really answer my question. i plan on running 10w30 dino fuel (since its what mazda would recommend for me if not for CAFE) but im wondering how concerned i should be about a previous owner not using the right stuff. i have no idea how much permanent damage mobil 1 would cause if used for 70,000 miles - thats really what im trying to figure out.

and how much would a dealership charge for a compression test?

Bluerenesis

They put 5w20 on the oil cap for a reason. I am sure that is not even close to a deal breaker considering alot of us run off of it with no problems. I am original owner of an 04 with just coil issues so far. I would trust the majority rather than someone at Mazda. When it comes to rotaries, dealerships that I have encountered arent very knowledgeable. Not trying to give you grief but Mazda did print that on the cap cause they thought it was safest. In all reality , you will never truly know how well it was taken care of unless you visually inspect every square inch of the motor. Than again this is all just my opinion. Alll I know is considering that their isnt a mainstream of rotary wisdom throughout the dealerships, used rotary cars would make me a bit skeptic too to buy.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

the subject of why 5w20 is stamped on the cap is obviously a subject of debate - one that doesnt need to be started inhere.

more than likely, im going to do all my own searching through VIN's, calling mazda, carfax, etc. ill do more searching about how cooperative mazda has been with warranty claims, and just to increase my general knowledge. but at this point, im really considering trying to find one that needs an engine and the owner doesnt know the warranty was extended. then i can (maybe) get into one with an engine thats only been cared for by me, plan b i guess would be sell it.

has anyone on here tried this for better or worse?

Bluerenesis

I think there is no better place but here in the forum to discuss the oil choice. A team of experts stamped that on the cap for a reason and I am guessing because it is the safer choice. Why would a car company tell you to use the wrong oil? So that it can become another ford pinto, where ford lost money on them since the repairs exceeded the sales profits.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

i wouldnt be surprised if mazda lost money after the warranty was extended, of course, if they didnt they may have lost more in a class action lawsuit.

and why would said "team of experts" stamp one grade oil for the US and not the rest of the world? ive read about the CAFE standards, and allegedly, it was cheaper for mazda to pay for the warranty extension than the CAFE fines.

Bluerenesis

Emmisions maybe. Good points, and quite frankly frustrating since no one wants to damage their rotary engine and we want to know what is the safest oil application. I am sure climate would matter too though. I guess what I am saying is it all depends where you live and what time of year maybe.

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

yeah - the japanese standard and UK standard is 5w30 or 10w30 nonsynthetic depending on climate (or so ive read). thats what i plan to adhere to if i get an 8.

and im really not a "conspiracy theory" kind of guy, but the information thats out there saying they changed it for the standards is fairly concrete in my mind. youve gotta make your own decisions on this one, but its an interesting read at the very least.
(oh yeah - wonder why theres no UK or japanese warranty extension program?)

yudkib

iTrader: (1)

well - i told my GF i was going to get an ATX for my next car, and she flipped out when she found out i was seriously considering an 8.
and since, unfortunately, im a man of my word, the 8 is out.

looks like im just gonna get a VQ30 maxima for now - and save some of the other money/credit i had towards my next ride. a maxima should get the job done for a year or two. its no 8, but ill take it.