RX8 V6 engine conversion
10-07-2014, 04:08 PM
#51
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If you can do it, more power to you. You might prove the extensive history wrong, and we will eventually get to say: "You can do this cheaply and quickly if you are a prior F1 mechanic".
The more I think about it, the more that would confirm my opinion that it isn't worth doing. If trying to do a swap wasn't exclusive enough, now you have to be an F1 mechanic first to have a decent shot. Am I right?
Or maybe profession doesn't really have anything to do with it except a subset of skills that might be useful.
I don't bother making claims about who I am on the internet. It's pointless. I be who I am and let people make their own conclusions, and I let the resulting reputation speak for itself.
The more I think about it, the more that would confirm my opinion that it isn't worth doing. If trying to do a swap wasn't exclusive enough, now you have to be an F1 mechanic first to have a decent shot. Am I right?
Or maybe profession doesn't really have anything to do with it except a subset of skills that might be useful.
I don't bother making claims about who I am on the internet. It's pointless. I be who I am and let people make their own conclusions, and I let the resulting reputation speak for itself.
10-07-2014, 04:15 PM
#52
I'm just a plain 'ol Joe. 
So anything but a rotary or a v8 costing $10k is unacceptable? Practical and affordable is not an option?
KFC - You just can't win can you? lol
So anything but a rotary or a v8 costing $10k is unacceptable? Practical and affordable is not an option?
KFC - You just can't win can you? lol
10-07-2014, 04:23 PM
#53
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kicker, anything is acceptable as long as you have a good supporting reason behind it. The world of car enthusiasts is a world where hairbrained ideas are generally more accepted than rejected. This thread started with a desire for an engine with ...and I quote:
That's what triggered this whole discussion, since his stated goals are met with a quick replacement engine. It devolved from there.
"Practical" and "Affordable" are options, but they exist in other cars. They don't exist in the RX-8 when you start tossing "engine swap" around. Sure, there are some swaps that are more practical than other, and some swaps that are more affordable than others. But even the cheapest most practical swap out there is LESS practical and LESS affordable than just getting another car that is closer to what you want.
That's my core point in all of this. You have already tossed practicality out the window as soon as you start a swap, regardless of the choices and regardless of the outcome.
200bhp-230bhp
"Practical" and "Affordable" are options, but they exist in other cars. They don't exist in the RX-8 when you start tossing "engine swap" around. Sure, there are some swaps that are more practical than other, and some swaps that are more affordable than others. But even the cheapest most practical swap out there is LESS practical and LESS affordable than just getting another car that is closer to what you want.
That's my core point in all of this. You have already tossed practicality out the window as soon as you start a swap, regardless of the choices and regardless of the outcome.
10-07-2014, 04:23 PM
#54
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If you can do it, more power to you. You might prove the extensive history wrong, and we will eventually get to say: "You can do this cheaply and quickly if you are a prior F1 mechanic".
The more I think about it, the more that would confirm my opinion that it isn't worth doing. If trying to do a swap wasn't exclusive enough, now you have to be an F1 mechanic first to have a decent shot. Am I right?
Or maybe profession doesn't really have anything to do with it except a subset of skills that might be useful.
I don't bother making claims about who I am on the internet. It's pointless. I be who I am and let people make their own conclusions, and I let the resulting reputation speak for itself.
The more I think about it, the more that would confirm my opinion that it isn't worth doing. If trying to do a swap wasn't exclusive enough, now you have to be an F1 mechanic first to have a decent shot. Am I right?
Or maybe profession doesn't really have anything to do with it except a subset of skills that might be useful.
I don't bother making claims about who I am on the internet. It's pointless. I be who I am and let people make their own conclusions, and I let the resulting reputation speak for itself.
10-07-2014, 04:26 PM
#55
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And THAT is an excellent reason. I can understand that reason completely. I too enjoy challenges simply because they are challenging.
That doesn't change my opinion about the viability of an engine swap in an RX-8 chassis, but good luck tackling the challenge that is going to be bigger than you currently predict
That doesn't change my opinion about the viability of an engine swap in an RX-8 chassis, but good luck tackling the challenge that is going to be bigger than you currently predict
10-07-2014, 04:55 PM
#56
You gonna eat that?
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Hmm, you asked, I'm still waiting from RIWWP. I don't like to boast but....
I'm a gas turbine prototype test build engineer, have been a business jet engineer, F1 race mechanic. So like Kickerfox, I have enough relivent expearience and skill set, I'm a fabricator, machinist so I don't pay anyone to do work, hence why my costs are new parts only.
People are so quick to assume you're numpty that has pipe dreams..
I'm a gas turbine prototype test build engineer, have been a business jet engineer, F1 race mechanic. So like Kickerfox, I have enough relivent expearience and skill set, I'm a fabricator, machinist so I don't pay anyone to do work, hence why my costs are new parts only.
People are so quick to assume you're numpty that has pipe dreams..
10-07-2014, 11:48 PM
#57
This thread reminds me of the good old days when every week there would be a thread like this pop up .
KFC ... Have you ever heard a NA 4 rotor ?
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mad-mike-tears-up-the-hamilton-v8-supercar-track_2245169.htm
Have a listen
KFC ... Have you ever heard a NA 4 rotor ?
http://www.streetfire.net/video/mad-mike-tears-up-the-hamilton-v8-supercar-track_2245169.htm
Have a listen
Last edited by Brettus; 10-08-2014 at 12:31 AM.
10-08-2014, 04:45 AM
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I have yeah, way too impractical for daily use, mine will be on a proven LPG system as well. :-)
Shields up!
10-08-2014, 11:30 AM
#62
You gonna eat that?
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Legot, DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!
10-08-2014, 03:46 PM
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What about this bad boy? YUM! PPRE 6 Rotor RX4 Track Test at the 2013 V 4 & Rotary North Island Jamboree (Onboard Footage) - YouTube
10-08-2014, 03:58 PM
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Of course.
Let me guess.... You've never been in a car on lpg?
Well in this country petrol costs £1.34 per litre, that's $7.60 per US gallon, so we have to look for alternative fuels. I hate diesel and the Italian lpg systems are the best! I have had mine on lpg for over a year and I can honestly say I can't feel a difference! I've towed another car on a "A" frame and did comparison tests on hills to see if the torque drops and it feels the same, I can switch over easily.
LPG costs £0.62 per liter and I do get the same mpg ($3.50 per US gallon), I use the same amount of litres of petrol to lpg. I was amazed because I heard you get 10% drop on both, power and mpg, not so on mine. It is a clever system and the injectors are very fast.
Let me guess.... You've never been in a car on lpg?
Well in this country petrol costs £1.34 per litre, that's $7.60 per US gallon, so we have to look for alternative fuels. I hate diesel and the Italian lpg systems are the best! I have had mine on lpg for over a year and I can honestly say I can't feel a difference! I've towed another car on a "A" frame and did comparison tests on hills to see if the torque drops and it feels the same, I can switch over easily.
LPG costs £0.62 per liter and I do get the same mpg ($3.50 per US gallon), I use the same amount of litres of petrol to lpg. I was amazed because I heard you get 10% drop on both, power and mpg, not so on mine. It is a clever system and the injectors are very fast.
10-08-2014, 04:05 PM
#66
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LPG is a good fuel solution. It's even a good fuel for the rotary. No argument from me there.
I think diesel is the best rotary fuel, since it's weaknesses are where the rotary shines, and it's strengths are where the rotary is weak. Plus diesel is an oil, so internal lubrication problems are inherently solved. But a diesel conversion isn't easily obtained
I think diesel is the best rotary fuel, since it's weaknesses are where the rotary shines, and it's strengths are where the rotary is weak. Plus diesel is an oil, so internal lubrication problems are inherently solved. But a diesel conversion isn't easily obtained
Last edited by RIWWP; 10-08-2014 at 04:08 PM.
10-08-2014, 04:14 PM
#67
Of course.
Let me guess.... You've never been in a car on lpg?
Well in this country petrol costs £1.34 per litre, that's $7.60 per US gallon, so we have to look for alternative fuels. I hate diesel and the Italian lpg systems are the best! I have had mine on lpg for over a year and I can honestly say I can't feel a difference! I've towed another car on a "A" frame and did comparison tests on hills to see if the torque drops and it feels the same, I can switch over easily.
LPG costs £0.62 per liter and I do get the same mpg ($3.50 per US gallon), I use the same amount of litres of petrol to lpg. I was amazed because I heard you get 10% drop on both, power and mpg, not so on mine. It is a clever system and the injectors are very fast.
Let me guess.... You've never been in a car on lpg?
Well in this country petrol costs £1.34 per litre, that's $7.60 per US gallon, so we have to look for alternative fuels. I hate diesel and the Italian lpg systems are the best! I have had mine on lpg for over a year and I can honestly say I can't feel a difference! I've towed another car on a "A" frame and did comparison tests on hills to see if the torque drops and it feels the same, I can switch over easily.
LPG costs £0.62 per liter and I do get the same mpg ($3.50 per US gallon), I use the same amount of litres of petrol to lpg. I was amazed because I heard you get 10% drop on both, power and mpg, not so on mine. It is a clever system and the injectors are very fast.
10-08-2014, 04:19 PM
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LPG is a good fuel solution. It's even a good fuel for the rotary. No argument from me there.
I think diesel is the best rotary fuel, since it's weaknesses are where the rotary shines, and it's strengths are where the rotary is weak. Plus diesel is an oil, so internal lubrication problems are inherently solved. But a diesel conversion isn't easily obtained
I think diesel is the best rotary fuel, since it's weaknesses are where the rotary shines, and it's strengths are where the rotary is weak. Plus diesel is an oil, so internal lubrication problems are inherently solved. But a diesel conversion isn't easily obtained
I know that diesel cars don't really exist in Canada, just VW, here every manufacture build them and as small as 1.4L.
How do you think rotary engine builders could get around the low compression issue to run a diesel?
10-08-2014, 04:26 PM
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The Renesis, and all prior versions of the rotary would be hard to adapt to diesel. Mazda already stated publicly that the 16X revision is able to run on any fuel they tested it with, including diesel. How exactly and at what compression ratios, I don't know, but I believe them.
So I don't know how to answer the last question, because either the 16X can run the higher CR needed, or there is something different Mazda did to assist in the ignition. Plus, keep in mind that Mazda's latest diesels have CRs as low as 14:1, which is an achievable CR on a rotary, assuming you build the engine with the correct dimensions.
And yes, diesel is still a hard sell in the US. But your point about diesel in the EU just really makes another point in it's favor, since a gas version has a harder challenge to meet EU requirements, a diesel might be the ticket there.
So I don't know how to answer the last question, because either the 16X can run the higher CR needed, or there is something different Mazda did to assist in the ignition. Plus, keep in mind that Mazda's latest diesels have CRs as low as 14:1, which is an achievable CR on a rotary, assuming you build the engine with the correct dimensions.
And yes, diesel is still a hard sell in the US. But your point about diesel in the EU just really makes another point in it's favor, since a gas version has a harder challenge to meet EU requirements, a diesel might be the ticket there.
10-08-2014, 04:41 PM
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The Renesis, and all prior versions of the rotary would be hard to adapt to diesel. Mazda already stated publicly that the 16X revision is able to run on any fuel they tested it with, including diesel. How exactly and at what compression ratios, I don't know, but I believe them.
So I don't know how to answer the last question, because either the 16X can run the higher CR needed, or there is something different Mazda did to assist in the ignition. Plus, keep in mind that Mazda's latest diesels have CRs as low as 14:1, which is an achievable CR on a rotary, assuming you build the engine with the correct dimensions.
And yes, diesel is still a hard sell in the US. But your point about diesel in the EU just really makes another point in it's favor, since a gas version has a harder challenge to meet EU requirements, a diesel might be the ticket there.
So I don't know how to answer the last question, because either the 16X can run the higher CR needed, or there is something different Mazda did to assist in the ignition. Plus, keep in mind that Mazda's latest diesels have CRs as low as 14:1, which is an achievable CR on a rotary, assuming you build the engine with the correct dimensions.
And yes, diesel is still a hard sell in the US. But your point about diesel in the EU just really makes another point in it's favor, since a gas version has a harder challenge to meet EU requirements, a diesel might be the ticket there.
10-08-2014, 05:10 PM
#71
No I've never been in an LPG car, I don't have many friends.
I'm sure it's a fair solution, but I've never looked it up until you posted that, so +1 for you. Can you go into how you're going to implement it? I'm curious as to how a pleb would go about something like this. What types of obstacles do you expect to face in using a low cost solution for it? Is it a simple change of fuel delivery method, or is it more like that plus a different type of ignition control?
I'm sure it's a fair solution, but I've never looked it up until you posted that, so +1 for you. Can you go into how you're going to implement it? I'm curious as to how a pleb would go about something like this. What types of obstacles do you expect to face in using a low cost solution for it? Is it a simple change of fuel delivery method, or is it more like that plus a different type of ignition control?
10-08-2014, 05:21 PM
#72
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In the US at least, it's simply that the costs are in a different place. The cost to make and transport is lower, but the core cost of the source oil is higher. So there is an barrel oil price point at which diesel becomes the same cost at the pump as gasoline (which varied depending on which gasoline grade). Lower cost per barrel and the diesel is cheaper, higher cost per barrel and the diesel is more expensive. For quite a few years, the price of oil has been hovering just above that even price point, so diesel has remained more expensive.
10-08-2014, 07:19 PM
#73
Before I sold my '85 RX7 gas was nearing $2/gal. I made a comment to some friends "If gas goes over $2/gal I'll convert the 7 to propane" and as usual "your never going to run that on propane". The next month gas was $2.09 and of course they called me out on it. Just to make them happy I shoved a hose down the intake and connected it to a propane torch head with the orifice removed. Drove it around the block that way just to make them happy. A little bit hard to drive regulating the fuel with a thumb screw. It was a demand regulator away from a full conversion but I decided to sell the car.
10-08-2014, 08:57 PM
#74
40th anniversary Edition
I have it on the word of a Mazda regional service rep that one reason Mazda has yet to bring a diesel car to North America as long planned, is that after extensive testing with the diesel fuels available here, Mazda found such poor quality diesel fuels being sold overall and no diesel fuel consistency from pump to pump, rendering impossible any successful tune for a diesel car that has to work well in all of North America. I guess their tolerances to make their Skyactiv Mazda diesel work here are tighter than other carmakers with diesels in North America.
( A side note: a longtime Mazda racer friend of mine that had switched over to VW after also racing VWs for a while, just dumped his new VW diesel sedan. He drives hundreds of miles every day across many states for his government job (so he is using diesel fuel from many different areas in the US) , and in just the first year his brand new VW diesel engine has had to be repaired more than once, and finally nearly totally rebuilt at a cost of several thousands of dollars by VW. He gave up ,saw the handwriting on the wall with the future of this diesel car, and sold the car as soon as the last engine fix was made, and came back to Mazda, buying a MT 2015 Skyactiv Mazda6, which he loves and says the handling and fun reminds him of driving one of his past RX7's. )
The Mazda guy told me that diesel fuel quality standards are far more consistent in Europe and Asia (please Europe and Asia members chime in here about this if you know it to be so). So until that North American diesel fuel situation dramatically changes, don't expect either a Skyactiv Mazda diesel sedan or diesel rotary to be introduced in North America, even though Mazda would love to be the only Japanese car brand in America with a great diesel car for sale. You will just have to watch and root for the Skyactive diesels in Tudor United Sports Racing, which have been gallant, but have been having a tough development time their first season.
( A side note: a longtime Mazda racer friend of mine that had switched over to VW after also racing VWs for a while, just dumped his new VW diesel sedan. He drives hundreds of miles every day across many states for his government job (so he is using diesel fuel from many different areas in the US) , and in just the first year his brand new VW diesel engine has had to be repaired more than once, and finally nearly totally rebuilt at a cost of several thousands of dollars by VW. He gave up ,saw the handwriting on the wall with the future of this diesel car, and sold the car as soon as the last engine fix was made, and came back to Mazda, buying a MT 2015 Skyactiv Mazda6, which he loves and says the handling and fun reminds him of driving one of his past RX7's. )
The Mazda guy told me that diesel fuel quality standards are far more consistent in Europe and Asia (please Europe and Asia members chime in here about this if you know it to be so). So until that North American diesel fuel situation dramatically changes, don't expect either a Skyactiv Mazda diesel sedan or diesel rotary to be introduced in North America, even though Mazda would love to be the only Japanese car brand in America with a great diesel car for sale. You will just have to watch and root for the Skyactive diesels in Tudor United Sports Racing, which have been gallant, but have been having a tough development time their first season.
10-11-2014, 06:53 AM
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No I've never been in an LPG car, I don't have many friends.
I'm sure it's a fair solution, but I've never looked it up until you posted that, so +1 for you. Can you go into how you're going to implement it? I'm curious as to how a pleb would go about something like this. What types of obstacles do you expect to face in using a low cost solution for it? Is it a simple change of fuel delivery method, or is it more like that plus a different type of ignition control?
I'm sure it's a fair solution, but I've never looked it up until you posted that, so +1 for you. Can you go into how you're going to implement it? I'm curious as to how a pleb would go about something like this. What types of obstacles do you expect to face in using a low cost solution for it? Is it a simple change of fuel delivery method, or is it more like that plus a different type of ignition control?
LPG gas conversion kit Range Rover Super Charger V8 sequential injection AEB
The only tricky thing about the installation was splicing into the cars loom for the injectors. The lpg ecu is now the master, it tells the cars ecu when to go on petrol. On start up it needs to use petrol until the threshold is met on change over. As in, when the water temp reaches 30 degrees C, the revs are over 1200 rpm, the lpg ecu changes over seamlessly. You can't feel it, well, only a tiny bit but you have to be waiting for it.
At 1200 rpm the engine is so smooth anyway. I'm not sure the time frame but it changes 1 injector at a time but I think its all six over a second or 2.
The engine coolant water runs through the vaporizer as it gets very cold and can freeze if the you were to change the threshold temperature lower than 30C.
In the summer (25c to 30c) in changes over nearly instantly or a 1/4 of a mile. In the winter (15c to 0c) it can take up to 3 miles so it's not to bad. I've thought about putting in block heaters to plug in for an hour just to see if it changes over a lot quicker.
The tank sits in where my spare tire goes. In the 24 years of driving, I've only ever had 2 flat tires, I carry a tire repair can if I get a flat.
the whole installation took me 4 days so I expect it to be a bit quicker putting it on the 8 as I know what I'm doing with it. Oh, I recently put a flash lube kit on it, meant to give added protection to for the valves but it's not needed on this engine, I just thought it would be good to have it as it's cheap.
I hope this helps.