LS1 or 20B?? which one???
10-24-2010, 01:49 PM
#29
As to the 26B Suggestion.....
Anyone looked at putting 2 synchronized 13B's together? The reason to synchronize them is to need only one ignition system and ECU, just split the leads for the sets of coils. Even the low power ones would make 400 plus HP, and the intake would be simpler.
Or, was that last beer one too many?
Anyone looked at putting 2 synchronized 13B's together? The reason to synchronize them is to need only one ignition system and ECU, just split the leads for the sets of coils. Even the low power ones would make 400 plus HP, and the intake would be simpler.
Or, was that last beer one too many?
10-24-2010, 02:43 PM
#30
Diego
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As to the 26B Suggestion.....
Anyone looked at putting 2 synchronized 13B's together? The reason to synchronize them is to need only one ignition system and ECU, just split the leads for the sets of coils. Even the low power ones would make 400 plus HP, and the intake would be simpler.
Or, was that last beer one too many?
Anyone looked at putting 2 synchronized 13B's together? The reason to synchronize them is to need only one ignition system and ECU, just split the leads for the sets of coils. Even the low power ones would make 400 plus HP, and the intake would be simpler.
Or, was that last beer one too many?
10-24-2010, 04:29 PM
#31
The thought...
Line 2 of them up, front to back, somehow attache the pulley shaft of the rear one to where the flywheel would mount on the front one. Option 2 would be to just keep stacking rotor and end place housings on a custom E-Shaft. The catch is that either way, you match up the locations of rotor lobes so that you will have each pair, one in front, one in back, synchronized. That means you can use the same ignition signals for both rotors, meaning you can use a standard ECU. If space allows, you might even be able to use 2 stock intake manifolds and throttle bodies (need more data on how position is determined and called up to answer that one for sure). None of this is possible with a 3 rotor (would not be smooth), but with 4 the engine is back to balanced.
Issues:
Lots more, like cooling, transmission (but you have those in the LS option).
Biggest savings is likely stock electronics. Looks like engine would be about 10 or so inches longer (2 chambers, 2 mid-plates). I have no idea how much that weighs.
Line 2 of them up, front to back, somehow attache the pulley shaft of the rear one to where the flywheel would mount on the front one. Option 2 would be to just keep stacking rotor and end place housings on a custom E-Shaft. The catch is that either way, you match up the locations of rotor lobes so that you will have each pair, one in front, one in back, synchronized. That means you can use the same ignition signals for both rotors, meaning you can use a standard ECU. If space allows, you might even be able to use 2 stock intake manifolds and throttle bodies (need more data on how position is determined and called up to answer that one for sure). None of this is possible with a 3 rotor (would not be smooth), but with 4 the engine is back to balanced.
Issues:
- E-Shaft strength as you get closer to the flywheel.
- Intake Manifold, unless you get lucky.
- How to couple the two, but both ends are already threaded (flywheel and pulley) so might not be that hard, or just a long e-shaft (smarter people weigh in please).
Lots more, like cooling, transmission (but you have those in the LS option).
Biggest savings is likely stock electronics. Looks like engine would be about 10 or so inches longer (2 chambers, 2 mid-plates). I have no idea how much that weighs.
10-24-2010, 06:33 PM
#33
The "somehow" that apparently cost me the points is related to using 2 separate e-shafts. Best way is one shaft that is strong enough to take the torque. I have no idea what it would take to get one made. (The real one from the racing parts bin probably has 90 degree offsets, that means you need a super special custom ignition / injection system ($$), or use the one from the race car ($$)). Here the idea is 180 degree offset so you can use the standard engine controller.
Once that is worked out, it seems from the 20B threads that the ECU is expensive. If you can delete that expense (including tuning), and use off the shelf parts, and not have to worry about FI to get a lot of power, did the whole upgrade plan just get easier? I think so, but have no idea. Maybe a shaft costs $15,000, maybe just $1,000? Again, no idea. I no longer have a neighbor with a machine shop, so I cannot ask.
The "somehow" path means you need a coupling that bolts to both motors, and a way to keep them aligned so they do not flex (or fix it so a little flex is OK). I think I read that there are FI motors that can make 400 to 500 HP (a stock e-shaft??) maybe that is not that hard. The torque is not crazy like a huge V-8.
Another problem with a connection "somehow" approach is it makes the whole thing longer. Ideally you stop before it hits the power steering. That is hard to move, expensive, and mounted to stuff that effects the handling of the car.
If it is not obvious to readers that I have never built one of these, or taken one part, or even seen most of mine, I want to state the following: "I have never built one, taken one apart, or seen most of my engine." I did build a model when I was a kid, but since I am almost as old a OldDragger, it was made out of stone.
I am interested in this discussion, if someone wants to play. If it is in the wrong place, sorry, it can move.
10-24-2010, 07:03 PM
#35
Diego
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The "somehow" that apparently cost me the points is related to using 2 separate e-shafts. Best way is one shaft that is strong enough to take the torque. I have no idea what it would take to get one made. (The real one from the racing parts bin probably has 90 degree offsets, that means you need a super special custom ignition / injection system ($$), or use the one from the race car ($$)). Here the idea is 180 degree offset so you can use the standard engine controller.
Once that is worked out, it seems from the 20B threads that the ECU is expensive. If you can delete that expense (including tuning), and use off the shelf parts, and not have to worry about FI to get a lot of power, did the whole upgrade plan just get easier? I think so, but have no idea. Maybe a shaft costs $15,000, maybe just $1,000? Again, no idea. I no longer have a neighbor with a machine shop, so I cannot ask.
The "somehow" path means you need a coupling that bolts to both motors, and a way to keep them aligned so they do not flex (or fix it so a little flex is OK). I think I read that there are FI motors that can make 400 to 500 HP (a stock e-shaft??) maybe that is not that hard. The torque is not crazy like a huge V-8.
Another problem with a connection "somehow" approach is it makes the whole thing longer. Ideally you stop before it hits the power steering. That is hard to move, expensive, and mounted to stuff that effects the handling of the car.
If it is not obvious to readers that I have never built one of these, or taken one part, or even seen most of mine, I want to state the following: "I have never built one, taken one apart, or seen most of my engine." I did build a model when I was a kid, but since I am almost as old a OldDragger, it was made out of stone.
I am interested in this discussion, if someone wants to play. If it is in the wrong place, sorry, it can move.
Man im just giving you ****
, your idea is doable. But not realistic. You can simply just buy a 4 rotor shaft/ kit, and you will be way better off than going your route. It be easier/faster 4 rotor kit. If you really want to talk about this some more, send me a PM or just make a new thread and we can go back and forth, then other people can post some insights too.
Cause people have to 1 up you!
What about 26b with twin gt35s? (oops might of let out a secret just now)....
10-24-2010, 07:12 PM
#36
Not to change subjects but heres a little something.
Worlds 1 and 2 fastest rortaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4PE94uMmQk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhAk...layer_embedded.
Ohh They both 20B's... Had to throw that in there..
Worlds 1 and 2 fastest rortaries
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U4PE94uMmQk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXhAk...layer_embedded.
Ohh They both 20B's... Had to throw that in there..
10-24-2010, 07:48 PM
#38
Even better, from above, if you google 4 rotor shaft kit, it pops up an archive from this forum that talks how to tie them together.. Even has a disaster story...
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/4-rotor-e-shaft-3176/
WOW, I coulda SEARCHED!!!
where is the stupid little smilie for slink off in shame?
https://www.rx8club.com/series-i-tech-garage-22/4-rotor-e-shaft-3176/
WOW, I coulda SEARCHED!!!
where is the stupid little smilie for slink off in shame?
10-24-2010, 08:07 PM
#39
Diego
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Even better, from above, if you google 4 rotor shaft kit, it pops up an archive from this forum that talks how to tie them together.. Even has a disaster story...
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=3176
WOW, I coulda SEARCHED!!!
where is the stupid little smilie for slink off in shame?
https://www.rx8club.com/showthread.php?t=3176
WOW, I coulda SEARCHED!!!
where is the stupid little smilie for slink off in shame?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2nuYyMIVao
10-25-2010, 12:53 PM
#41
these threads start and nothing ever really happens 
But.... if you do decide to spend the money..... then I would say why not go for the ls motor. I think that a 20b would be really nice but in the same aspect your wallet will think that the ls would be MUCH nicer
Ask Angel how much the beast cost with all the hidden little expenses that people dont think of.
I bet the cost is WAY more than what you initially think it will be. This isnt lego.. it wont just snap together
But.... if you do decide to spend the money..... then I would say why not go for the ls motor. I think that a 20b would be really nice but in the same aspect your wallet will think that the ls would be MUCH nicer
Ask Angel how much the beast cost with all the hidden little expenses that people dont think of.
I bet the cost is WAY more than what you initially think it will be. This isnt lego.. it wont just snap together
10-25-2010, 01:09 PM
#42
Speed is all you FN NEED
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20B all the way. Putting an LS1 in the RX-8 is like putting ketchup on a steak...yeah, it's beef like a burger...but you know it doesn't belong on there!!
10-25-2010, 01:18 PM
#43
Diego
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these threads start and nothing ever really happens
But.... if you do decide to spend the money..... then I would say why not go for the ls motor. I think that a 20b would be really nice but in the same aspect your wallet will think that the ls would be MUCH nicer
Ask Angel how much the beast cost with all the hidden little expenses that people dont think of.
I bet the cost is WAY more than what you initially think it will be. This isnt lego.. it wont just snap together
But.... if you do decide to spend the money..... then I would say why not go for the ls motor. I think that a 20b would be really nice but in the same aspect your wallet will think that the ls would be MUCH nicer
Ask Angel how much the beast cost with all the hidden little expenses that people dont think of.
I bet the cost is WAY more than what you initially think it will be. This isnt lego.. it wont just snap together
To replicate Angels setup, you gonna spend an easy 30k. And that is a low number.
Why do ppl always say **** like this. How about you stay with your little kids meal (renesis) and OP will get a Big Mac (lsx)..
10-25-2010, 01:34 PM
#44
Speed is all you FN NEED
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Whooooo, snowflake, don't loose your special sauce...wasn't bagging on your set up or other LS1s...just an opinion, which is what this forum is about, chill...
10-25-2010, 01:43 PM
#45
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You should be thank full someone does things like this, its what helps get more upgrades to the car done.
10-25-2010, 01:51 PM
#46
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Dude...the thread asks...Which one? My response, 20b. I don't have any say whatsoever what he puts in his car, so I DON't get to decide. I'm still runing stock, if someone offered to drop in a Ls1 for me for free, i'd take it in a hearbeat..ALLL day long...if they offered me a choice, I'd take the 20B ALLL day long....thread asked for an opinion, and I posted one, simple as that
10-25-2010, 02:03 PM
#47
funny story.. when I started everybody was telling me Id spend 10G's at the most. So I said in my head I CAN DO IT....... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS......
WELL, I bought the engine 3500 and the rebuild including parts and labor was another 3700 ( includes porting and a couple of nice litlle things i had done ). SO, I was 7,200 down and I didnt even open my cars hood yet. By the time I got the turbo, fuel system, piping, wastegate, blowoff, msd's, coils, wiring, manifold, clutch, etc, etc, etc..... I was LONG gone over the 10G's.
If I were to count all the money I have spent on my car after I started the swap, including all the broken and upgraded parts ( NOT only what I currently have) I'm aorund 50G's if not more. Again thats NOT the figure I would spend If I went straight to what I have now. Theres a big difference between where I started and where I am.
When you do a swap of this magnitud, U NEED to have some spare money, Things are going to BREAK.
Last edited by angeljoelv; 10-25-2010 at 02:10 PM.
10-25-2010, 02:26 PM
#49
Diego
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Dude...the thread asks...Which one? My response, 20b. I don't have any say whatsoever what he puts in his car, so I DON't get to decide. I'm still runing stock, if someone offered to drop in a Ls1 for me for free, i'd take it in a hearbeat..ALLL day long...if they offered me a choice, I'd take the 20B ALLL day long....thread asked for an opinion, and I posted one, simple as that
hidden expenses its a nice way of putting it.. lol
funny story.. when I started everybody was telling me Id spend 10G's at the most. So I said in my head I CAN DO IT....... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS......
WELL, I bought the engine 3500 and the rebuild including parts and labor was another 3700 ( includes porting and a couple of nice litlle things i had done ). SO, I was 7,200 down and I didnt even open my cars hood yet. By the time I got the turbo, fuel system, piping, wastegate, blowoff, msd's, coils, wiring, manifold, clutch, etc, etc, etc..... I was LONG gone over the 10G's.
If I were to count all the money I have spent on my car after I started the swap, including all the broken and upgraded parts ( NOT only what I currently have) I'm aorund 50G's if not more. Again thats NOT the figure I would spend If I went straight to what I have now. Theres a big difference between where I started and where I am.
When you do a swap of this magnitud, U NEED to have some spare money, Things are going to BREAK.
funny story.. when I started everybody was telling me Id spend 10G's at the most. So I said in my head I CAN DO IT....... YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSS......
WELL, I bought the engine 3500 and the rebuild including parts and labor was another 3700 ( includes porting and a couple of nice litlle things i had done ). SO, I was 7,200 down and I didnt even open my cars hood yet. By the time I got the turbo, fuel system, piping, wastegate, blowoff, msd's, coils, wiring, manifold, clutch, etc, etc, etc..... I was LONG gone over the 10G's.
If I were to count all the money I have spent on my car after I started the swap, including all the broken and upgraded parts ( NOT only what I currently have) I'm aorund 50G's if not more. Again thats NOT the figure I would spend If I went straight to what I have now. Theres a big difference between where I started and where I am.
When you do a swap of this magnitud, U NEED to have some spare money, Things are going to BREAK.
If one wants around 600hp it would be less, just not baller status!
10-25-2010, 02:30 PM
#50