kickerfox

I understand. A plane has to maintain high power during a climb or take-off then maintain a cruise output. If an engine is truly just a piece of $hit, it wouldn't be considered at all for aircraft use unless it some experimental plane.

I judge an engine by it's design not it's brand name. Most foreign engine manufacturers use the same manufacturing process and materials and roll out of the same factory (Aisin). In other words, 90% of it is the same crap.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

Google Image Result for http://i224.photobucket.com/albums/dd25/AJxtcman/SuperCharger/Supercharger.jpg

X7rotor

iTrader: (2)

They use rotory motors for small cessna planes..

kickerfox

Seems GM only produced that engine for 3 years in 2 cars. The Olds Intrigue and Aurora. 215hp@5600 234lbft@4400

Well, Luke at HP Heaven got back to me about their 814hp Isuzu v6 Holden Rodeo run. They did it using the stock cast crank!

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

they did but that engine is also know as the "Shortstar: as it is the v6 version of the Northstar engine. There are some differences, but it is an aluminum engine with dohc ,9.3:1 compression that produces really good power. 350hp is very easily done.
The engine was underrated in power from the factory per aftermarket reviews.
Here is a link for a complete engine for sale for $499.
The Shortstar is a very dependable V-6. It has a 90 deg vee-angle. It has a chain-driven dual overhead cams and 4 valves per cylinder, but is an even-firing design with a split-pin crankshaft. This V-6 is entirely different from any other V-6 in the GM inventory. It was only dropped because it cost too much to make.
It was also one of GM's first engines to use coil-on-plug ignition. Also the 3.5 uses a gm service# 12209614 pcm which is the exact same as 01-02 impala, malibu, venture, intrigue, aztek, montana, grand am, silhouette, alero etc. Its a well known pcm that has aftermarket support.


This engine should have more aftermarket support.
2001 82K Miles 3 5 6 Cylinder Motor Engine Oldsmobile Intrigue Aurora 01 02 2002 | eBay

Or even a LY7 engine--lots of potential in that one.

but it sounds to me you are set on the Isuzu

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

Consider this: when your fun is said and done who in their right mind will be interested in an RX8 with some offbeat Isuzu engine to play the parts & repair matching game with down the road? One indication is that so far you are the only person here sold on the idea.

People read this crap in magazines and dream about how cool it sounds, but rarely consider the reality of owning such animal. It takes the same level of mechanical, electrical, and control systems equipment and knowledge to maintain one as it does to build one.

kickerfox

So it's Isuzu, so what? The engine is very easy to find and parts are dirt cheap but may have significant advantages that may make it the ideal engine for many RWD swaps. Transmission options is one of them. I don't read magazines and any idiot can maintain an engine. It doesn't matter what engine it is or what it's in...at least to a good mechanic it doesn't. If your one of those ASE Certified R&R guys you might get lost because in the books the blue wire didn't go to the green one.

It's a big v6 though and may not even fit the car. If everyone kept their mouths shut we'd have nothing to read on forums and magazines. Eventually someone will learn something from what's said, just not you.

Slidin8

I think the time has come for you to start this swap and prove us all wrong.

Good luck

Mawnee

I'll give you this. You must be the first person in the world to look at the Rx8, a highly rated sports car and say "hmmm, if only it had an Isuzu engine...."

kickerfox

Thank you. I can't wait to do so but remember, I'm not looking to make 800hp out of it. For all I know the engine won't even fit! lol

I said "hmmm, if only it had a larger displacement aluminum DOHC v6 that had RWD transmission options and large production volumes". My first choices were Nissan (VQ), Honda, Toyota (1MZ), VW (VR6), Mitsubishi, and GM (60deg). Having seen a varity of engines (with limited to no transmission options) I stumbled across the Isuzu v6. I was researching the Toyota 1MZ-FE bellhousings when I stumbled across a post on a truck forum that mentioned the v6 Isuzu engine has the 60deg GM bolt pattern and that Dodge made a bellhousing for the 2.5L Dakota that fits the 60deg GM block and various Toyota transmissions like the R154 (Supra). No only was there many bolt-on RWD transmission options, there was a strong RWD trans with countless gear ratio options including a 6-speed. Those transmissions also have various tailshafts that allow adjusting placement of the shifter.

Anyone who's ever done a swap will appreciate what that means. Others have spent countless hours trying to adapt transmissions to various engines. I can overlook the stigmata that plagues the Isuzu name and give it a chance. After seeing the engine's design, it's no different then anyone elses. If it winds up being a complete disaster, I'll be left with an RX-8 with an empty engine bay ready to accept any GM 60deg engine.

kickerfox

Finally made it out to the yard. It was dark and the engine was still in the car so these probably aren't completely accurate measurements but...

Height: Crank center to valvecover - 13"
Height: Crank to plenum - 18"
Width: Valvecover to valvecover - 24.5"
Depth: Timing cover to rear - 19.5"
Depth: Crank pully to rear - 22"

I couldn't see below the crank pully because the wheels were off and the front end of the car was laying in the dirt. It is a rear sump pan anyways. Now I'll have to measure the 8's engine bay again but I think if the Isuzu heads are against the firewall, the front end of the Isuzu sump will likely rest on the K member.

blackenedwings

Hehe, always good to see you posting Mawnee. This thread is pants on head retarded.

The cost and effort to do a swap in this car is extremely high... like the half a dozen LSx swaps which have never been completed. Those swaps actually had a purpose as they intended to put in a substantial upgrade to the existing motor. There have been a few 1/2JZ swaps done cleanly as well, but again... substantial upgrade (at least in a straight line). Putting in an anemic v6 making less power than the existing motor and trying to get the ECU, trans, gauges, AC etc work requires heavy medication to even consider.

kickerfox

It requires resourcefulness and a lack of ignorance. It's borderline racism towards Isuzu around here. Or is it "raceism"? Explain how a 66% (minimum) improvement in torque is less power? I can do this swap for less then an LS1 would cost me.

I have yet to hear any of you give me one reason it's a bad choice and back it with some mechanical or electrical fact about the engine that clearly shows it's inferior. I've personally found two things wrong. It's a cast crank and an open deck. Open decks can be closed and apperently the crank is plenty strong from what I've read.

bose

iTrader: (5)

Isuzu has never been known for quality, durability or reliability. Hence why they aren't here anymore. Add to that, the v6 is giant piece of ****, and is ridiculous to work on and you've got a way bigger headache than the rotary would ever have been.

kickerfox

Quote:

Originally Posted by bose

Isuzu has never been known for quality, durability or reliability. Hence why they aren't here anymore. Add to that, the v6 is giant piece of ****, and is ridiculous to work on and you've got a way bigger headache than the rotary would ever have been.

Neither is Mazda. I'd do some more more research. Isuzu owners who take care of their engines are getting 250k miles out of them. The Junkyard engines I've looked at typically have 100-180k miles on them. This is strictly speaking of the v6. Which, I've recently been informed, was produced by Honda of Japan under Isuzu licensing. A month ago if I'd have thought I'd be considering an Isuzu motor for a swap, I would have also thought I was nuts. Consider Spitfire's point of view on the Isuzu v6.

"The V6 eventually chosen is an all alloy belt driven, quad cam V6 with 4 valves per cylinder. This engine is manufactured by Honda Japan under licence for Isuzu and is used in 10s of thousands of vehicles world wide. From our research the reliability of this engine is extremely good and investigation with the vehicle manufacturers using this engine has confirmed this reliability record."

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

It's all for nothing because this swap will never happen.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Or if it does happen it will end up being a half assed monstrosity.

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

like that 383 stroker

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Exactly.

bose

iTrader: (5)

I don't care about Isuzu history, so I'm not even going to bother. I've heard of guys with FB RX7's getting 250k out of an n/a rotary. There are exceptions in everything, show me real world examples of Isuzu's being reliable. I don't know or care who this Spitfire cat is, why should I believe him, he doesn't even have a real name.

By the way, that timing belt is a blast to replace, good luck.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

every one of these "hey, look at what I plan to do" threads are all about garnering your attention

success = set goal, make plan, execute plan, then brag about what a genius you are

fail = this and every other thread just like it as has been well proven

kickerfox

Belt is the same as any 4-banger to replace.

Spitfire is a small aircraft made my Supermarine. If an aircraft manufacturer has faith in it, so do I.

Untitled Document

I've done quite a few engine swaps but most of them were into a car that had that engine as an option at one point. Those were bolt-in for the most part. The sandrail was another story. I had to fabricate the subframe to accept Mazda 626 front control arms (swaped right for left) and 626's rear struts were modified to fit the 626 front spindles. The KLDE's oil pan's sump had to be moved to the rear of the engine in order to clear the subframe. The electrical system was from a Ford Probe GT manual (engine was from a 626 auto). The exhaust had to be fabricated. The gas tank had to be modified to accept a return line and fuel system used a Corvette's fuel pump. The Probe's electrical harness was opened to remove the lighting system wiring. It was not needed because the sandrail had it's own lighting system. Alternator brackets were fabricated as the smaller Civic's alternator was used. Power to the various engine systems was all fused per-circuit. I only used the engine harness and had to make the fuse panel and distribution wiring then wire it into the engine harness. The check engine light was maintained and stayed off.

Anyway. A swap will happen. I'm capable of that. Will it be the Isuzu engine? It's looking like a very good option so far. I have yet to hear why I shouldn't use it.

As far as attention. That's exactly why I would post a public thread. I need the public's opinions, good or bad. I haven't heard many suggestions though. Only doubts about whether or not it'll happen.

So lets get over the "he's never going to do it" or "That engine sucks" and talk about problems and solutions. If you have negitive comments, please back them with data. I'd rather have productive conversations. "That engine sucks" doesn't bring me any closer to completion. "That engine sucks because [insert mechanical disadvantage here]" can bring me closer to solving potential problems.

To continue moving forward...

I noticed another thing about the Isuzu Trooper I looked at yesterday. The ECU is located in the engine bay. This is good news. Most of the wiring won't have to be under the dashboard and I can likely use the 8's ECU housing. It's also a drive-by-wire throttle. I must then assume the Trooper has traction control. If so, I may be able to retain it even though I don't need it. It's likely the ABS system can also be retained if there's room in the engine bay for it. I'm going to guess the 8's ABS system uses canbus. The Trooper's ABS module may have to be used but that could be a saftey issue if it wasn't designed for the 8's brake hardware. Either way, I should be able to use the 8's throttle pots or swap in the Trooper's throttle pot but attach the 8's pedal to it. Since I have another vehicle to drive this winter, I should be able to get started on pulling the Rotary out and gutting the 8's harnesses before spring. I will still need to run various sensors into the drivers cabin but this will be a good start in locating power feeds to the ECU. Once the 8s harness is cut, I'm committed.

I've heard there are canbus interfaces that are simply a/d converters and microprocessor to drive factory clusters. I'd assume they can be programed to take X input and convert it to a canbus signal that's mapped out for your application. Has anyone used these controllers before?

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Why waste time even discussing it if you don't even know if the engine and trans will fit?

kickerfox

I don't consider discussing aspects of an engine swap a waste of time, that is, if the thread contains useful information and not just a bunch of "what about this, what about that" chatter. There's a lot of good info to be learned besides that about Isuzu v6. Not everyone knows a Dodge Dakota 2.4L bell housing will bolt a GM 60deg v6 to a Toyota transmission, do they? It took awhile to stumble across that info. There are many engines that can be used with that combination. Sure, if you google it now you'll find it easily because now you know what your looking for. Other owners considering swaps can read this thread and learn from both my successes and failures. It could save them alot of time. What wastes time is people posting comments that have no educational substance to the topic.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Yeah, you're right, the many people looking to put mediocre GM V-6's in their RX-8's now have this thread as a valuable resource to learn from.