fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

Your head is so far up your defending your position *** that you fail to realize that this swap means absolutely nothing in the grand scheme of things. Any swap is possible with the right amount of money, skill, and work. That goes for any car and any engine. No one has said that this swap wasn't possible. We've all said that it's dumb.

What doors does it open? We already know that an LSx will fit in the engine bay. We know that an S54 will fit. How is this shorter and narrower engine breaking new ground? Because it is a v6? At least try to shoe horn in a v6 that offers some real performance right out of the box. Is it opening new doors because it's vastly different than the norm? No, it's just an ego padder so some dude can say (if it all goes as planned) i did a swap for cheap using an engine that everyone said was ****. We'll all still laugh when his car isn't nearly as fast as he expected. We'll applaud him if it's faster and done right.

If you're into euro cars i'm surprised you're even following this thread and arguing with everyone. You should be pm'ing the dude that's doing the s54 swap to see how a real engine does in the car and talk to someone that really is opening new doors.


Threads like this are why i'm glad I got rid of my car when I did. Idiots trying to do terrible swaps is just going to drag the value of the car down further than it already is. It's also terrible for the community when people argue nothing but some found internet images as fact, get completely defensive, and ignore the advice and opinions of others even when they've asked for them. Making this car into something that it's not, and using shitty parts to do it, turn it into another cheap *** car that's had it's soul pulled out through it's *** during one of its many, many dry *** rapes. I'm all for swaps that add performance and character. This is like swapping a kia engine into a civic. Even the ricers don't go that low.

X7rotor

iTrader: (2)

Didnt read all of that. Reason being to much proving a point when modding follows no rules but you went to put rules. And thats why my statement stands

kickerfox

[QUOTE=fuztupnz;4413314]If he magically builds an engine out of it that puts down 300+ whp reliably, with a nice looking power band, and can get it in the car and running properly with all drivable and legal necessities for less than $7k, then we'll all eat our words and worship him.[QUOTE]

You may begin your preparations because it will be done under $2k. The reliably issue will begin with the 8's rear diff. I'll see how well the rest of this "fine wine" holds up from there.

But seriously... I chose the Isuzu v6 over an i6 because of the engine's potential, weight distribution, transmissions options, cost, availability, serviceability, and ease of custom modification. The readers of this thread have yet to explain any flaws of this engine (or any engine), other then those I've pointed out already, and simply call it a "piece of **** Isuzu v6". That's quite a degree of shallow mindedness.

This engine produces 350hp reliably on stock internals with a simple supercharger, no intercooling, and an ECU flash. It's been built to over 800hp. I can easily envision 400hp+ with intercooling and proper tuning on stock guts. This isn't theoretical physics we're dealing with. It's just an engine but it's an engine with a long list of features that any high performance engine has.

The 2.8L did exactly what it was designed to do, move people from A to B as inexpensively as GM could do it. They were not building a performance engine when a 100+ year old pushrod design hit the drawing board in 2.8L v6 form. They have a handfull of v8s that are fairly robust but I don't consider GM to be a performance engine manufacturer. That said, Isuzu probably had the same goals when they asked Honda to design them a v6 but quite a bit of "engine technology" went into it.

I was JUST LIKE YOU when I considered polluting an RX's engine bay with Isuzu anything but I kept an open mind, did my research, and saw the potential.

And to quote today's email... (about the engine)

"Ill sell it to you for the $200 let me just take it off ill let you know when it's done yeah?

Sent from my iPhone"

$200 down, $1800 to go.

Anyone ever see the movie Half Baked when Dave Chappelle had to take a girl out on a date with $8? Buying parts and selling off the old parts is going to go just like that. Except for robing the bum of course.

Slidin8

Have you ever heard of the LS series?

It's easily one of the best V8 engines to have been created

Will66

GM not a performance engine manufacturer? I daresay there would a myriad of people who would argue with you on that.

Mawnee

LMAO!!!

This guy is so trolling.......but I"ll bite just for LULZ....



^ That is my car. It is NOT boosted(yet ) ...it cost me a couple hundred dollars in parts to upgrade to this power.... on an engine that can be readily bought under $1000. If it needs rebuilt it wont cost anymore than that POS Isuzu...... It can support 800+ on stock internals(EASILY), 1000+ with just pistons and rod bolts. It does NOT wiegh alot, and it does not have top heavy heads.

Now please...talk to me about torque curves some more......

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

$10 says he argues with you because it doesn't show from 0 rpm so you can't see your 300ft/lbs of torque at idle.

Nice graph Mawnee. Cams, headers, and a tune? Certainly too expensive and not a performance gain worth the money.

Why do i keep posting in this thread and arguing in circles with two retards?

Mr_Pieper

Don't argue, fuz. Have fun. Treat it like a parody of a real build.

Mawnee

Yep. Moderate cam, Long tubes, Zip tie modded intake(free CAI) and a tune. My car makes more torque at idle than his isuzu will make flat out WITH the supercharger.....

and oh yea...33mpg highway

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

nice. I haven't completely ruled out a c5 z06 as my next car. Prices are insane for the amount of car you get.

Mawnee

I bet they fall a bit when the C7s start rolling out too Too bad for me, mine currently has a higher trade in value than what I paid for it. I bet that wont last

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

guys--they will always be more powerful engines. Dang. Lighten up a little.
I will officially say that after closer inspection this Isuzu engine is interesting to me. I have always thought that a v6 engine would suit this car more so than a v8.
For yall blasting from red light to red light or down the strip--yep-- keep your v/8's muscle.
The LS engine is a great engine --but on a road track the LS engine needs a little help too. They are not indestructible.

Here are what some friends of mine are doing--just for interest--
http://i736.photobucket.com/albums/x...58F06E86AF.jpg

So --my group is not unfamilar with engine swaps. My group of close friends do these ( which includes a running LS1 engine and a T56 trans) as a kit for 8k. Of course this is on the Honda S2000's, but they are looking at the RX8 soon too. They have already told me just this w/e ( I was on track with these cars/guys) that the 8 will be more of a challenge due to the steering.
I have another close friend that is one of the premier RX7 /LS engine converters at Mazcare. He has been doing it for years. I could talk all day about it.

So--point is-- when i say i have taken a closer look at this particular engine--I dont mean that I just researched on the Internet a little--OK? This is not a bad engine at all. Its not the best for power delivery, but for a swap it's pretty dang good.

This could work and imho if it gets done then it will be a more balanced car with a smoother more balanced power delivery than any v/8.

Relevant question? How many of you have driven an RX8 with more than 300rwhp?
If you have then you know that this chassis needs a little help once you pass even that level. It will need even MORE help once you start getting toward 350-400.
So why drop a big olde monster v8 into this thing--unless you are going to drag race it?
Point is --look again at what you are saying? Just because everyone else is swapping the LS engine doesnt mean its the thing to do on every car.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

And what would it take to get an Isuzu V-6 to a reliable 300WHP OD?

The reason the LS is so popular is because it is proven, cheap, and has a ton of aftermarket support. My whole problem with this thread is not the engine choice, there are plenty of great V-6 engines to choose from.

With enough money and know how you can do just about anything (The Ford Fiesta SHO-Gun comes to mind) but the problem with thread is that it will never happen. People who are committed and capable of a project like this don't talk about it, they do it. So far nothing has been done.

Had he done even a little bit of actual work he would not be catching as much **** as he is right now, but honestly I think he is troll and the odds of the build going anywhere are zero. There is only one way to know for sure, we shall see.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

OD: I understand where you are coming from completely. Being more track focused myself, I agree that you don't need a monster build LS engine. But, for the money and time involved, i would still do a relatively stock LS1 build over a hopped up V6 build, unless we're talking a wild n/a v6. I have no qualms with the idea of a v6 swap. My argument in this thread has always been that his is a bad engine choice to start with. Sure, this engine has some nice attributes to it, but a DOHC v6 is top heavy, and this particular engine would need a full on rebuild and tuning to move the power band to a more suitable place for a sports car. The "It's just a daily driver that gets good mileage" is a terrible argument. Why bother with all the work, even if it didn't cost a dime? I honestly think that anyone that wants to do a track car/fun sports car swap should really look into what an S54 swap takes. Bulletproof engine that would need nothing more than a good tune and a couple bolt ons to put down around 300whp and really make an rx8 chassis shine. I can't wait to see the results, but unfortunately for all of us, he is taking a much smarter "Look what i did" approach to his build. People get far too caught up in weight and dimensions of things in front of the firewall and really fail to realize how insignificant a few % change to the balance split really is. When you add better power output to the rear of the car, that % change become even less significant and almost wanted to counteract the enhanced forward thrust and inherent tail happiness. I'm not knocking the idea of a v6, i'm knocking the idea of this particular v6. I truly don't believe it's going to open any new doors. It's not going to be as cheap as the OP thinks it is, and without some serious work, it's not going to perform as the OP thinks it is. It will be a rear wheel drive camry. Yay.

kickerfox

Did someone just argue a v8 has more power then a v6? -faceplant- Very astute. Figure that all out on your own did ya?

A bump in compression ratio or a few PSI will get it to 300hp. They do 350hp on stock internals with the Alpine SC kit but that kit is no longer in production.

Mawnee - What would win a race? The engine shown in that Dyno or a 420hp turbo Civic? All other things equal. Same vehicle weight, same Cd.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

There are plenty of V-6's with more power potential than a lot of V-8's. The number of cylinders has nothing to do with the power potential.

OD = Oldragger. And you think just a bump in compression ratio will get that engine to a reliable 300WHP?

I never said it wasn't possible to get one to 300WHP, I was implying that it would take a significant monetary investment to get one there reliably.

fuztupnz

iTrader: (4)

Kicker, how come you haven't posted anything about the known oil burning issues and tons of engine failures of your beloved isuzu engine. I'm sure the 100's of threads and thousands of complaints to isuzu have come up in your research.

Swaps away from the 6VE1 seem to be pretty popular from what i've seen of the isuzu crowd.

kickerfox

If it's 250hp stock, a bump in CR will get it to 300hp (probably going to need some cams as well). Stock supercharged they do 350hp reliably and maybe more. No one really knows. It won't take a fortune to get 350~400hp out of it. Don't be blinded by peak HP figures. I could put on ITBs, regrind the cams, port the heads, yadda yadda yadda and, if the crank holds 8000rpm, make some nice HP numbers but it will not be enjoyable on the street.

I did mention the oil burning problem. There's a pic of a seised oil ring in post 13. Like any engine, owner neglect doesn't help and I can't see a lot of people out there buffing the antennas on their Troopers. The Suzuki H2xA is another proven engine (H20A Escudo pikes peak) but in a Chevy Tracker or Suzuki Grand Vitara (H25A/H27A) they blow timing chains left and right due to the tensioner getting plugged with crap from lack of oil changes. It's another "truck engine" with alot of potential. I had considered it because there's one on the floor in my garage and it's a very light v6. fyi the SR20 has the same problem with the oil ring yet that's known to be a good engine. There's even one of those in my garage that was being built for my turbo'd Sentra but I had to sell the Sentra to invest in my business. I could easily plop that engine into the 8 but I wanted to do something different. I've owned enough i4s.

I think there's a few 1UZ-FE swapped Isuzus out there. There's bolt-on 4x4 trans options and adaptor plates made for it. I can see why the off-roaders like it. I happen to love the 1UZ's design but it's a bit heavy.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

yall have some good points. IDK if the op is really serious about this or not. Never met the man. Time will tell however.
This engine is interesting though. Better performing engines are out there--true. But maybe this swap is not what that is all about. Ones man trash is another mans treasure--remember? I think the op is going after cost and installation ease rather than high performance.

Curious as to why others dont think this engine cannot get to 300rwhp without major work? Why is that. Look at the design--it has the ability to move more air.?
With it's design it can move some air.

azzuro

What about turbo I4's? 4B11T swap?

kickerfox

I've looked into many engines to judge both cost and performance. If I was only after cost, I'd drop a GM60 in it and be done with it. As for performance, if you want higher RPM, you need a strong bottom end that can handle the forces, high flowing heads to minimize pumping losses, and a light weight valve train. The Isuzu has those features. 6-bolt mains and a crank mounted oil-pump are great. I'll assume it's a sintered gerotor set which is easy to EDM out a billet set should it prove to be an achilles heal. The heads have large valves in a pentroof chamber so no issues there. It's more resistant to detonation. People run non-intercooled superchargers at 10psi on stock internals so there's something to be said about it's resistance to detonation. The cam followers are mechanical bucket design which means their light and strong. They are desired over hydraulic followers or rocker-arms because their light and strong. They hold up better to stiffer valve springs which will be required to avoid valve float at high RPM. The ignition system is coil-over-plug sequential which can provide a more controlled spark and will not be an issue at high RPM or under high comperssion pressure. No problem firing a .040" gap at 15psi using that ignition system. It also has something called plasma detection? I have to look into that to see if it's a pro or con for my application. I believe it's only purpose is for detecting misfires. As for exhaust and intake. The sky is the limit since they're both custom. They will have a serious impact on the torque curve in an NA build.

The cams will be the other very important factor. If you look at the way the cams are driven in this engine, you'll notice how easy it would be to degree them by drilling additional dowel pin holes in the cam gears and remarking the alignment marks. This will help me shift the torque curve slightly and costs me nothing to do so. I haven't counted the teeth but it looks like somewhere around 50t. That gives me 7.2deg+/- to play with right off the bat without drilling. It may be possible to get more incremental changes by combining gear position with belt position. If the belt cog is say 10deg per tooth then one cog forward combined with one tooth back makes 2.8deg advance. Point is, there are always cheap and easy tweaks. Lucky for me this is a non-interference engine.

I'd rather have a 300hp v6 then a 300hp i4 turbo. Been there, done that. I want something different. The v6 will have a nice tone to it too. Knowing me, I'll probably put more time into screwing around with the exhaust then the swap itself. I want the smooth pur of a VR6 or JZ not the gurggle of a Chevy Lumina with a hole in the cat.

9krpmrx8 - I forgot to respond to you about the v6/v8 comments. Reguardless of the cylinder arrangement. If the bore/stroke and VE are equal, and we remove friction losses from the equation, a v8 will always outperform a v6 by 50% simply due to it's 50% larger displacement. Supercharging, using a blower or turbo, raises the VE of the engine so lets not argue turbo v6s against NA v8s. I'm pointing out that there are only two major factors to consider. Displacement and volumetric efficiency. Sure you can fiddle around with intakes, exhausts, cams, rod lengths and crank angles, but all your doing is adjusting the engine's VE through tuning. Simple fact is, if there's "X" amount of enegry in "Y" amount of fuel and you must maintain "Z" a/f ratios, it all boils down to displacement. I guess, to me, an engine is an engine is an engine. The Isuzu in question is 3.5L and that's a nice chunk of displacement over the RX8's 2.6L worth. It's 35% more displacement volume and if I match the 13b's VE, it'll make 35% more torque. Can I maintain that VE across as wide a power band as the 13b? I doubt it. High RPM will inevitably suffer so you may not see the peak HP numbers other engines are making.

9krpmrx8

iTrader: (46)

Nice edit. You are delusional if you think a bump in CR will get you 50WHP on that engine.

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

9k, the tq is much more important than an extra 50hp noob

Mr_Pieper

He has been editing and deleting stuff a lot. I have seen things on my phone that I wanted to check when I got home and they weren't there.

Bump the compression ratio on an engine that is known to let the oil sneak past the rings and have fun rebuilding it every 10k-20k miles. Same thing with your non-intercooled supercharger. Then you might as well just buy a Greddy turbo kit.

It isn't a cheap swap if it involves a bunch of extensive fabricated parts that the average person can't make. Take the amount of time you spend in the garage and multiply it by $120/hr.

Also, part of the way the car handles is because of where the power is in the rev range. Change that and the balance is completely different. Then you might as well just have a different car.

olddragger

iTrader: (3)

its inexpensive for him. He does his own work and has access to a BUNCH of parts. Concerning the oil ring "problem" Isuzu issued a technical mod to drill 4 more relief holes in the 3rd groove of the piston to allow the oil to drain back into the crankcase and not be burned off on the power stroke. The whole oil burning problem was due to the oil holes in the piston were getting clogged due to extended oil changes/crappy oil. The holes clogged, the oil rings stuck, the oil couldn't drain back into the crankcase and it ultimately wound-up getting burned-off in the power stroke.
The crankshaft is the major weakness in this engine--its cast and it is not advised to regrind it. Still a crank in good condition holds up to engine modification ok.