VeeSe

Hey all,

First of all, this is my first post, but I'm happy to be part of such a good community. I'm about to type a ton of stuff, so I won't be surprised if nobody even reads this, but I think it's worth a shot to get some opinions.

Now that that's out of the way, I'm looking at buying this:
-2009 Grand Touring (6-speed) with 42k miles for $13998
-Additional $1000 for a 5 year, 100,000 odometer mile (so 58k more miles) extended service plan that will cover pretty much everything mechanical that is not normal maintenance or wear and tear (clutch, brake pads, etc) except for exhaust and cat.

The car has a clean Autocheck, no accidents reported, and was a fleet vehicle for the first ~30k miles or so before being owned by another owner until now.

I haven't test driven yet (going to do that this week), but I've been reading a ton on this forum, and the more I find out, the more worried I get. There's a 5 day, moneyback return policy, so if I buy it, I am going to take it to the Mazda dealership and get a compression test and return it if the engine isn't in good health. At the same time, I'll check on any TSBs and recalls, and I am also going to call Mazda North America and find out if this car is on its original engine or if it's gotten a reman engine.

I've read the entire "potential owners, start here" thread and more, and it seems like I could go crazy with everything about this car (dead engines, faulty clutch pedal assembly, diagnosing low mpg problems, redlining regularly to clear up carbon buildup, difference between SeriesI and SeriesII, etc.)

1) Carry oil in the trunk or have some on hand and frequently refill to just under full. Not too bad.
2) Buy my choice of premix and use it on fillups to help engine seal lubrication. Carry premix in trunk.
3) Make sure the ignition system is always up to par. Replace coils/plugs/wires frequently (minimum every 30k, probably will need to do this as soon as I purchase because I don't know the last time it was done).
4) Make sure I am on top of the state of the cooling system. Buy bluetooth OBD2 connector and run application like "Torque" to keep track of car vitals regularly, including water temperature, making sure it stays in normal range. Change the coolant soon after getting the car. Use Mazda's FL-22 coolant.
5) Make sure never to turn the car off cold, or you will flood the engine and not be able to start it again without attempting to "unflood" it.
6) I will have no idea about the fuel economy of this particular car. Being able to get regular mpg like 17-18 mixed is already bad enough as it is, I would definitely not enjoy finding out that I get 12-13 and have to troubleshoot all the ignition stuff and go down a rabbit hole I know nothing about.

If I were to buy a different used car, I would do MUCH less:
1) Buy it
2) Drive it and enjoy it
3) Get around to changing out the fluids at some point shortly thereafter (no huge rush but don't wait too long, will have to do this on the RX-8 as well).
4) Not worry NEARLY as much.

I've never owned a rotary before, and I am freaking out a little. I am hoping that when I actually see the car and test drive, it will make this significant tradeoff worth it. I definitely won't own the car outside of my extended service plan period due to reliability concerns, but that's not really relevant right now.

Am I going crazy for trying to account for how all of this will affect me before I even see/drive the car? Should I just move on? I'm also considering other more traditional cars, with the other frontrunners being FR-S/BRZ, Focus ST, G35/G37.

Thanks!

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Well, frankly, if the potential problems you could be facing are a serious worry to you, then yes, you should probably move to a different car. The RX-8 is a quirky high strung sports car that fits a niche market and requires a special form of crazy to own one happily.


That being said, MOST of the problems are Series1 cars, the Series2 cars do have periodic engine failures, but the failure rate appears to be much lower. The risk is still there though.

Don't forget about the warranty though. That 2009 has an engine warranty from Mazda, free of charge, for another 58,000 miles, or sometime in 2017 (or later, depending on when it was first sold, the autocheck should give you an idea on that)

And on top of that, just being aware of the problems means that you are far less likely to encounter them. It's the people that go into buying one blind that get sucker punched really hard.



So for my part, I can't wait to buy another one, but then I'm that special kind of crazy. If you are truely worried about ownership, then chances are you should probably explore other cars, and only come back if you simply can't find anything you enjoy more. This car isn't for everyone, so definitely find a car that speaks to you and that you enjoy. It isn't worth buying anything else.


(and yes, that is a goal I have in the new owner's thread...pushing people away from purchasing one that probably shouldn't be buying one. The people that read all that and respond with 'bring it on!' are the ones that will love owning one)

niteshade247

If you drive the car and fall in love with it you'll keep it far beyond the 5year 100k mark but if your really that paranoid already and haven't even drove it your going to give your self a aneurism. To give you a little peace of mind if you take care of the car and stay on top of all the needed stuff it can be a realy reliable car I daly drive mine and it's a 04 with 145000ish miles and going strong. When it finally dose kick the can I'm going to get a engine built by one of the top builders (not a reman) because I do love how fun this car can be. Ultra gauge is a nother option as far as OBD2 monitors.

VeeSe

Well, the other factor here is that compared to the other cars I'm cross shopping with, this is significantly less expensive to buy (maintenance and gas is different, but it would take awhile to close the initial price gap), mostly because those other cars are so new. The Focus ST is my #1 choice for daily driver practicality mixed with fun, but I've been really wanting to at least try out an RX-8 for awhile.

VeeSe

Yeah, thank you for that great thread, by the way. I definitely did not have the "bring it on" reaction, so I'm hoping the drive will make an impression on me. I am hoping for not much of a dropoff in handling from my current car (NB Miata, modified suspension) with the addition of high revving fun. I know I can't compare a stock RX-8 to a modified miata, but if it's as good as I hear, it should be close.

EpikYummeh

Yep... that's me. Since I bought mine in May, I've had to replace sway bar end links, deal with a dead cat (a little over $200 just to waive failed emissions) I still need to replace, just put in BHR ignition, and now I'm starting to have doubts about the state of the engine... whoops. For me it's not so much a matter of having to fix all the stuff because I love my 8 to pieces, but I work part time and I'm in college so money is an issue. :P

HOWEVER, all that negativity aside, the RX-8 is an amazing car that, if taken care of, is incredibly fun to drive, looks sexy as **** out of the factory, and has a good bit of versatility for a sports car (I can drive my 3 sisters around with me if need be, though it's a squeeze).

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Actually, I currently daily a modified NB, an MSM with not much stock left on it.

The RX-8 is a much more refined version of the NB. It's suspension is far more stable and capable, although weighed down by another 700-800lbs. Gone would be the wind noise, the road noise, the raw vibrations and sensations from the car, replaced with a quiet soothing communication. It is just as responsive and communicative, but the Miata shouts at you in laughing exciteability, the RX-8 lovingly whispers to you. The Miata is far more suited to 20-50mph, as the RX-8 will feel heavy and can easily feel sluggish. Still good, but the longer wheel base has a noticeable impact. The RX-8 is far more suited to 60-140. It cruises at 60 just as calmly and smoothly as it does in triple digits, with the same degree of quiet solid communication.

The biggest difference though will be in the engine. The 1.8L BP is raw and rough, only being relaxed while cruising in a narrow RPM range from ~3k to ~4k. Higher and it feels strained and wrung out if you aren't at full throttle, and even then it starts wheasing unless you are stuffing pressurized air down it's throat, and lower than 3k just starts lugging it badly. The engine is extremely durable and more fuel efficient. The RX-8's engine however is quiet (unless you uncork it), buttery smooth, and is comfortable sitting anywhere from 4k to 8k, and will happily rev to redline and it will feel like it just never stops wanting to pull, and happy to do so. It doesn't like anything under 3k at all, but on a far worse scale than the 1.8L BP. The Miata is also far more modable, and for far cheaper, than the RX-8. (And with a turbo added to the Miata, it is significantly faster...)

But, like I said, I can't wait to get back in an 8 for dailying.

VeeSe

Wow, I didn't know you also drove an NB. I guess you can definitely make a comparison then. Mine isn't a MSM, which I've never driven, so I don't know how much difference the turbo makes in your comparison, but I'm guessing it doesn't provide anything down below 3k rpm anyway, so it'd be about the same.

You said in the "Start Here" thread that it's recommended to cruise at 4-5k rpm or so on the highway. I was curious as to what gear that is. On the NB 6-speed, I'm at 3.5k at 70mph or so, and 4k by 80. This is all in top gear. Is the gearing even shorter on the RX-8? I think I read somewhere that the final drive ratio was changed on the SeriesII to be shorter as well.

How does that relate to the most fuel efficient way to cruise? Are they the same?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

I had a 99 Sport before my 05 MSM, so I have the non-turbo comparison too The turbo does indeed make a HUGE difference (I walk away from any naturally aspirated 8 easily), though only with actual power/acceleration. Surprisingly to many, the 8 is still "faster" as far as top end goes, because it's aerodynamically superior and there isn't a massive torque fall off at the top of the rev range the way the Miata is, turbo or non-turbo.

In a series1 RX-8, 6th gear is 10mph for every 500rpm, so 3k is 60, 3.5k is 70, 4k is 80, 5k is 100. The series2 has a shorter rear gear, but then adjusted transmission gearing, so it isn't an easy calculation like that. Still, it's not hugely different in 6th gear. The NB's 6 speeds are roughly equivalent to the RX-8's first 4 gears, in terms of speed usage. 4th gear in the RX-8 will top out just a bit below what the NB's 6th gear will top out at, from a rev limit perspective, and still have 2 more gears to go. You have up to 6,000 usable rpms in each gear for the RX-8, vs more like 3,500rpms in the NB, so the gears are spaced out farther and you are in a given gear for a much wider range of speed.

Fuel efficiency for cruising is still best just putting it in 6th at ~3,000-3,500rpm and hitting cruise control. You will be building more carbon there than you should, so you will still need to vary it by punching harder on highway offramps/onramps, and/or have other carbon mitigation methods, but the engine will still sit at that RPM happily. It isn't in the engine's most efficient range, but downshifting to 5th or 4th to get the rpms up to 5k will trigger the secondary injectors as well as adding a lot more drivetrain loss with pumping oil, coolant, transmission fluid, etc... There are a lot of competing factors for mileage, and in the end, aerodynamic drag is simply the one that takes the biggest bite out of the mileage, so cruising at a lower speed in the highest gear ends up producing better results.

VeeSe

If I buy, is there anything else I should get the mazda dealer to check besides compression test and recalls/tsb while i am still in my 5 day return period?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Nope, those are the big ones.

fireishot34

iTrader: (1)

Inst car buying always a risk with any car purchase ever? The only way to avoid worry at all is to buy a new car with a bumper to bumper warranty.

ken-x8

Yes - buying a used car is always a risk. Buying a used sports car is a bigger risk.

Ken

VeeSe

Of course buying used is a risk, especially with cars that may have been driven hard. I just wanted a gauge of more experienced opinions and some assurance that I was taking the correct steps and precautions to minimize the risk, because there are definitely some people who can pull it off more safely than others when presented with an identical car in an identical situation. I just want to make sure I have my bases covered, know what I'm getting into, and am taking the right actions to give myself the best chance possible. There are no more new RX-8's after all.

However, specifically regarding the RX-8, I think that it's more important to do all of these things and take extra precautions than for almost all other cars, even within the sports car segment, given how finicky the car can be compared to the competition, and it seems like most of you can agree on that.

Anyways, I am going to test drive and potentially purchase the car tomorrow afternoon. I already have an appointment set up for Monday to get a compression test and quick inspection by the local Mazda dealer service department so that I can return it within 5 days for full money back if the results are not good.

Hopefully, all goes well.

200.mph

iTrader: (9)

rotaries need to be driven hard

ken-x8

An important action is to make sure that you're not overextending yourself financially and have enough extra money so that if something goes wrong it won't put you in a jam.

Ken

VeeSe

Excellent point. That's the main draw to this car, actually. I am paying all cash, and I was prepared to pay for a $22k car (Focus ST and G37s in similar condition, etc), but I will only end up paying $15k with a very good 5yr/100k warranty. So if you look at it from that front, I have that difference at a minimum that I could spend if something happens. Hopefully, I won't need nearly that much for unexpected expenses. Hard to imagine needing that much when I have the warranty, but it's not impossible.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Stick the 7k difference in a long term savings or investment account and you have your engine and transmission self-insured for the life of your car (although take up Mazda on their warranty, should you need it)

ken-x8

Recalling my own tale, I paid $25K cash for my 8, new. I was looking at other cars up to $45K. I've probably had $3k in unexpected repairs. If the engine blows and I need to spend $6K on a rebuild, I'm still $11K to the good.

Plus Zoomy is a hell of a lot nicer to drive than the $45K car I looked at.

Do the math right, and there's nothing to worry about.

Ken

VeeSe

Yep, hopefully I'm set on that front. I just really hope that I don't go all through this, buy the car, and then the compression test results come back bad (<7.5), and then I just return it. That would be a shame.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

The car is in warranty, so it could mean you just get a new engine...

SpaceCaptainSteve

I also bought a 2009 Grand Touring 6-speed manual earlier this year with similar mileage and couldn't be happier.

It's an absolutely awesome car. I love mine. Being here alone and reading all the newbie threads shows you pretty much have the info needed and know what to expect. With that mileage you should probably replace plugs/wires asap if they haven't been done yet.

When I was in the market for a new car it was between the RX-8 and the FR-S. I encourage you to test drive both, and really experience the eye opening difference. I was lucky because the carmax dealership salesmen allowed me to push these cars a lot more than you'd expect from a typical testdrive. Having a true manual with a 9K RPM redline is more fun than I can describe in words here. You'll definitely notice people turning heads as your engine peaks between shifts!

VeeSe

Are there any concerns with a remanufactured engine being worse quality than the original? I read about how that was a problem back in 2004-2005 and how it's probably better now, but I still don't have a great feel about what the general consensus is on that.

Nice. I am also buying from CarMax, mostly because I'm an employee at the corporate office so I get big discounts, and I know what to expect in terms of warranty coverage, ease of being able to return it, etc.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

There is virtually zero data on series2 remans. I am not even sure if you would get a reman. I know series1 new engines were exhausted years ago, but I have no idea if the s2 new engine supply is gone, and if it is, what the reman quality is.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Getting in late.

Sounds like, from your initial post, you have a plan. All I would change is getting a dedicated ODBII reader like an ultragauge ($60). way easier to deal with. And, the warranty is a great idea.