Enaris

Several weeks ago, my trusty '94 cherokee finally broke down (coolant in the oil pan) and it was going to take me some time to find and fix the problem.
Now, I work every day, and commute the hour-long drive both ways. I've been looking for a fuel-efficient car for a while now. I was cruising around on a few websites, and noticed the RX-8. I liked the way it looked, but it paled on gas mileage compared to the Altima and Mazda 3.
So, off I went to AutoLenders to look at a nice, economic Altima. It was white.
I hate white.
It drove pretty well, handled decently, had plenty of room (I'm 6'2") and got good gas mileage. Yet, I felt empty driving it. Gone was the thrill of my first car (a BMW 5 series) as well as the primal feeling of driving through the mud and trees in my last car (the cherokee). It felt hollow. Suburban.
I compared it to other cars featured in car and driver, and went to a few more car lots, and there it was - The RX-8. It was on 10best. It was at the dealer lot. I saw one driving by, and loved the sound it made. On a whim, I test-drove one, just to see.
I knew at once I would not be purchasing the suburban economy car. I can't do it. I got into a few other sportscars in the same class (namely the 350z and mustang) but they were cramped and soulless. Sure, they were faster, but they FELT slow, and seemed to wallow by comparison.
Setting my sights on a silver 2005 in my area, I called the dealership. The listing was old, and they had sold the car days before. I looked some more while I was approved for financing, and found it: A green, 2004 RX-8 with 100k miles.
I love Green.
I got the VIN and did some research.
The engine was replaced in 2005, at only 8300 miles. I read a bit, and discovered that it was unfortunately common. I was very leery of the replacement engine as a result of my research, but it passed all of my tests on the test-drive. It came with one of the crappiest batteries money can buy, and someone had cracked the air-dam clean in half. One side had a long, thin key line, and the other a pretty solid dent.
It was beautiful.
I had some difficulty actually buying the thing, though. Since I work late I was only available after 6 or 7, and on my first visit, I test drove the car, made an offer, and submitted for a loan. The banks were closed, so I was forced to return a few days later. When I finally did, I needed an updated insurance card, and to sign all the paperwork, blah blah.
Finally it was mine.
I drove to the dealer with my dad, and actually made him drive it down to our house - I've never learned to drive stick. I had a friend come over on the weekend in his Mazda 3, and we went round and round the neighborhood while I learned.
The 8 is less forgiving on the clutch, let me tell you.
The battery was starting to crap out on me, so I replaced it with a Diehard Platinum p-5 group 35 marine battery with the deep-cycle capability, $225 at sears. It also ran around 108*C, so I flushed, cleaned the system, and replaced the coolant. (That did it, btw, runs at 95* now at the most)
It idles a little rough intermittently as the revs drop, so I decided to clean the MAF. Pretty easy. It does feel like it runs better, but I have no proof, and the roughness at extreme low rev is still there.
I'll be running through the troubleshoot thread this week, and my results will be tracked here, as well as my MPG.

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

If you really want to do a good job of tracking your MPG check out Fuelly. It's a great site that a lot of people on this forum uses.

Welcome, have fun learning stick, not trying to sound mean but it's in your best interest to have some sort of warranty on the car if you don't already, and some backup money. With learning, you're bound to break something in the transmission department. No offense to you, it happens with everybody.

Make sure to keep up on the maintenance, keep the car in check, and it will reward you. Also for the rough idle, may be motor mounts, I would start there.

Enaris

I've been keeping track manually on my receipts and with my OBDII, but that seems like a neat little trick for it! Thanks for the tip.

Fully expecting to break some stuff as I learn, I bought the car well below my actual budget. I couldn't get a reasonable warranty on it, though.

I'm taking the car for a compression test soon, and I'll check the motor mounts as well.

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

Hope for the best with compression, should have done that before the purchase but nothing you can do now. And good thing you got it below your budget, getting an awesome deal on a car you really want always makes you feel good.

Enaris

I got quoted at the local dealer for $116 for a compression test, but my newly-clean MAF seems to have worked wonders on the idle, so I'm more interested to see my fuel mileage later tonight. I'll post it here, as promised. As for the compression test, I have until next week to consider it. I'm thinking the test won't tell me anything worthwhile - if the compression is good, everything is okay, and if not, there's really nothing I can do except start saving for a new engine.
Can anyone tell me if the compression test is worth this expense as an early warning of other problems?
I did notice yesterday, when I was parked at a bridge opening, that the coolant temp slowly rose past 100*C (where I understand the second fan is supposed to come on) and I decided to shut it off as it reached 102*C. While driving around 40mph, the temp hovers around 94-96*C as it should. I'm going to go home and test the fans.
Some forum warrioring has told me to listen to the fans as the temp rises to hear them coming on, or to pull relay 1 and jump the large terminals and watch the fans, and try spinning them by hand.
More on that when I'm done diagnosing!

Also, after a flush&fill of the coolant, the coolant float sensor seems to have failed. I understand this is fairly common, but now the light bugs me. Is there a nifty trick to fixing the sensor without replacing the bottle? I'm not that concerned about it, but it would be nice to have the light go away.
I'll probably replace it and upgrade the thermostat if I have to replace fan motors.

Khurram

Replacing the coolant bottle is the only cure to fix that light as far as I know.

Not sure but you should be able to mask the light off with AP (not sure though )

COmpression test is totally worth it. It will tell you your engine's health and give you an idea how long you have before it goes kaboom.. On the other hand, as per my understanding, rebuild costs varies based how many parts needs to be replaced, so if you wait for engine to go kaboom, it will probably cost you 3k+ if you have it rebuilt earlier, it may not cost you that much.

Also, you said you recently bought the rx8 right. So if the compression is failing you may be able to return the car or have some compensation from the dealer who sold it to ya..

Enaris

The earliest availability of the service shop will fall outside the return policy. Although, I might be able to extend it. It should be sometime in early June when I get it tested.
In the meantime... I wasn't able to get eyes on the fans without pulling the air cleaner and tray out, but I definitely hear the motors engage first on low, then on high, at 97 and then 100*C (AC off, heat off, at idle) but the heat continues to rise past 105, where I cut the engine.
If I hit any stop and go traffic I'm toast!
In any case, I decided to test the relays seperately with my homemade relay-jumper (It's a piece of wire) to see if that would tell me anything.
I can distinctly hear the difference pitches of two seperate motors, so I'm fairly certain both motors are working. In addition, when they are on high, I can feel a slight breeze out of the engine compartment. I put my hand in front of the radiator to see if I could detect the vaccuum there, as I have been able to before working on my Jeep. I couldn't feel anything there, but that doesn't tell me one thing or the other.
To me, there are three distinct possibilities:
1) The fans work and are unblocked, but the blades were installed backwards.
2) The motors work, but one of the fans is blocked or stuck.
3) The motors work and the fans were installed properly, but the airflow is restricted.

Any thoughts on this conclusion? Tonight I will be taking some pieces out and trying to turn the fans by hand. I'll have to try and find in my service manual which way they need to be installed.

ken-x8

No need to be elaborate if you just want to turn the coolant light off. Just pull the plug out. You can unlatch it and pull it up slightly to disconnect it, so the connector doesn't even have to be hanging out loose.

You just need to check the level yourself. 2005 should have the translucent bottle, which makes that easy.

Ken

Enaris

Ah, no, I have the 2004. Checking it by eyesight is a gigantic bitch that involves a lot of flashlight and some guesswork. I check it every day, though. If I was to end up replacing the coolant bottle, would the 2005 clear one be a better choice, and fit correctly?

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

If you are going to upgrade your thermostat you might consider replacing the radiator.
A 2004 with 100k might have rust issues contributing to it running hot.
I believe there is also a specific type of coolant required, but I can't remember it.

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

I remember reading something about that too but I can't find anything in the manual. Can't find where I read what type of coolant it needs. :|

Enaris

The radiator seems to be working fine. Over 40mph, I run around 93-95. Once I start stopping at lights and/or driving in 25mph areas, it starts to warm up.
If I do replace the thermostat, I'll likely upgrade to the Mazmart thermostat and keep an OEM radiator, but replace it. I'm not that rich!
I'll also replace all the lines to be safe.
That being said, I'm not going to fix what ain't broke. I haven't had any issues from the radiator, and I'm fairly certain the thermostat is fully open when it needs to be and closed when it doesn't.
I didn't get a chance to look at the fans because of a storm in my area, but this weekend I'll certainly have time.

For those of you that are curious, I've added a Fuelly account - just one tracked fuel-up so far, but it's in keeping with my personal records. (I couldn't be bothered to enter them all)
You can find that link here if you are curious, but the MPG was 17.2. That's fairly reasonable, and about what I expected.

EDIT: Whoops, an afterthought. I believe the recommended coolant is ML-22 from Mazda. Of course, you can use any anti-corrosive coolant medium, but it will be less effective on a Rotary. I'm planning to order some of the coolant when I order whatever else I need to fix the fan issue, since I'll have to drain again to get the radiator out. Mazda has a table in the manual of recommended coolant/water ratios. I assume these to be calculated using ML-22.

Enaris

Update: I pulled the airbox and tray to get a look at the fans, and jumped the relays.
The fans spin fine by hand and with the motors, and I checked to make sure the relays work.
I now have no idea what the problem could be.

Recap:
At speed the ECT reports at 95-97 Celsius.
At a stand-still at idle, the ECT climbs to 100 Celsius, then slowly climbs to 104 Celsius, where I cut the engine to avoid any damage.
The fans are unjammed, the motors work, the blades spin the correct direction, and the relays are tripping at the correct temps.

I may permanently jump relay 1 and see if that helps any, but seeing as that's already on at 100 Celsius, I can't see that it would.
I read somewhere there could be air in the cooling system leading to a poor heat exchange. I'm going to burp the system today and see if that changes anything.
I welcome any suggestions, though.

04Green

iTrader: (1)

Welcome.

I too fell in love with nordic green. I did not care if it ran, it was cool that it did.

You are on the right track for several things. Check out the $100 thread in my signature block. There is a lot you can do to help get an 04 back into fighting trim. You have done some of them. Check the fans on low mod. Quick and easy. It is what I did. I run it this way at the track. A more permanent solution is a different fan controller with an adjustable temp setting, but that is money, and a kludge.

Follow the premix thread. Lots believe in it. That is also money, and a bit of a kludge.

Best thing, a tune that lowers the fan turn on speed, ups oil injection where you need it and pulls some of the pig rich mixture. mazdamaniac.com sells the access port and the tune process is over the internet. He has detractors, but if I got another one, that is the first thing I would do. Pretty straightforward. Mine gave me at least one MPG, maybe 1.5, and the car ran better. Paid for itself after a few years.

Regarding a reman, not to jinks anything, my original engine lasted about 30K. The one that is in it (reman) is closing in on 100,000, 127,000 total on the car. The car has been tracked multiple times a year for the past several years by both my daughter and I. I think we are close to 8,000 track miles. Only issues is a slight temp climb (210F) on hot days (recently at Sebring). But the entire cooling system is stock. Remedy pump and t-stat are on the list, as is a flush.

Again, welcome. Pics necessary.

And, the other thread in my sig is a great one too.

Enaris

That is, by the way, an excellent thread. It is the first thing I read here after the intro announcements. I have been following much of the advice, and hitting anything on it that's on the way to fixing the high temp. I had planned to hit the ESS with cleaner and block in the radiator when I looked at the fans, but I didn't make it out to home depot and my carb cleaner can was empty (last time I used it? No idea, haha)

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

Do not use carb cleaner as it can leave residue. Use electrical onctact cleaner or mass air flow cleaner. It's designed for electronics and won't leave any sort of residue. Use this on all of the electrical connectors in the car, never use carb cleaner.

Enaris

Well, I guess it was a good thing the can was empty, then.
I have some electrical cleaner, so I'll make a note to hit that when I replace whatever the problem part in the cooling is.

A friend of mine mentioned that the radiator could be gummed up with some loose dirt and nonsense, and that washing it really good at the hand-wash might improve the fan effectiveness. I don't see that this could possibly hurt, and I get to wipe all the goddamn pollen off the car while I'm at it. That being said, I can feel the airflow when the fans are on from in front of the radiator, but perhaps it's not as strong as it should be.
It'd be nice to have a real working RX-8 nearby to compare notes. I'm looking around in the regional NE forum for meets that I could make it to without much luck. I just added myself on the map, though, and I'll reach out in the next few weeks!

On the way into work today the tire pressure light illuminated. I pulled over thinking I had hit a nail or some glass, but all the tires were totally fine. I scratched my head a moment and measured them each independently, and they were good pressure. I figured the sensor must have gone.
In any case, as soon as I turn onto the main road, the light goes off. Still not sure if it's the sensor or a quirk of the 8. -shrug- One more thing to keep an eye on.

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

CLOSE. I found it, it's FL-22.

Enaris

Bah! Off by a letter.

Enaris

Update: The tire pressure was indeed low when the tire was cold. Only down to about 25 psi, so not flat, just not full. Filled it with my compressor and it's holding fine, so I don't anticipate any problems.
I was stopped on the way home a couple days ago. Normally, when stopped, the car would slowly heat up and I'd have to shut it off. It hovered around 98, though, through about a half-hour of bridge opening. In fact, it ran much cooler even at speed than it had before.
The only noticeable difference was that ambient was reading 60 and it was raining pretty heavily.
Yesterday, as the car started to heat, I had a thought (amazing, right?). I was stopped in some traffic and approaching 104*C, so I rolled the window down and cranked the heat up. Sure enough, the temp dropped, until it hovered at 99*C, occasionally hitting 100*C and turning the fans on high.
My thought is that when it was raining, I had my defrost heat running, and the heater is acting as a second Radiator. This suggests a mild heat shedding issue. Whether that is in the radiator, or the engine, is anyone's guess. I'll run it with the heat on for now and might upgrade the radiator/thermostat and replace the lines.

It'll be time to top off the oil soon as well, I'm halfway between the full and fill on the dipstick. I understand there is some debate between synthetic and dino... My question is, do they mix okay? I don't know what was put in the car, but I do know it was changed fairly recently. Should I bother to change it myself so I know exactly what oil is in there?

blckninja

iTrader: (1)

For the oil it mixes just fine, some oil is better than no oil

Also for the heat shedding issue, that is fairly common. With our engines running hotter than normal, turning on the heat like you did will cool it down, many people have done that with these cars when the temp gets really high in the summer. Although I don't know what tempture is common, I would say check the cooling system just to be sure, rather safe than sorry.

Lastly for the convential vs synthetic. The reason why synthetic isn't recommended is because it doesn't burn as easily, which leaves more carbon in the engine, and we hate carbon. Whether or not that is true, and how much of that is true, is for you to read up on and decide for yourself. That's all I know about the topic, haven't read much into it.

ken-x8

FL-22 is just green glycol, pre-diluted to something like 55/45. It has a supposed lifetime of 10 years or 100,000 miles. But even if you don't believe in routinely changing coolant, who ever goes 100,000 miles without changing coolant because a water pump or hose had to be replaced?

Ken

Enaris

So... Not worth it?

Enaris

There is indeed a heat shed issue. I've confirmed this a few different ways over several weeks of driving, and I'm ready to stick a new radiator in, as well as replacing some of the hoses that look like they've seen some better days.
I found the aftermarket list of radiators, but a pretty good number of those are just no longer offered.
I've found the following:
Koyo Cooling ($125-150)
Ron Davis ($610)
Spectra premium ($130-250)
Mishimoto ($255)

I understand the Koyo and Mishimoto both have some fitting issues, whereas the Ron Davis is a perfect fit and excellent performance. The Ron Davis is a little pricey for my setup, though. I haven't been able to find a thing at all about the fit or performance of the Spectra.
Also, finding hoses for sale is quickly becoming a nightmare.

So my newbie question to anyone who has been through this or has more experience is: am I missing a resource to purchase these things? Do you have any suggestions or brands other than those above?

I appreciate any input at all.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I have no personal experience with it, but BHR has one that has been recommended.