My RX-8 Fried Itself, Supposedly
03-09-2015, 08:23 PM
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My RX-8 Fried Itself, Supposedly
Hello all,
I apologize in advance for how ignorant I'm about to sound but I figured I'd run it by all of you kind folks before I did anything.
I love my 8, I've had it for 3 years and despite the constant maintenance issues with the thing, I love driving it. Two weeks after we got it the compression died and we got a new engine for free under warranty.
Now, last week the check engine light came on while I was driving up on business about 100 miles. It came on right as I was flooring it to get through some traffic, and the light blinked. I figured it was a misfire, no big deal. It'll go away in a little bit. Wrong. It stayed solid. My 8 has a notorious history of showing warning lights that mean absolutely jack. The engine coolant sensor had been broken for the past year, and I had checked the coolant level myself the week prior when I had added oil - it was fine.
I finished my drive and turned off the car, figuring it would go away. The next drive was a short one to get a bite to eat and it was still on. I figured cycling the power would have reset it but apparently not, so I checked the forums and read about other check engine lights being associated with loose hoses or something I probably didn't really understand. I went "alright, it can wait."
I drove back down last Friday, about 100 miles back, and the car was fine. It was running fine, the temperature gauges all normal and nothing else going wrong with the exception of the engine light. I get home and call the dealership and schedule some service and bring it in on Saturday. I learn today that supposedly the engine had somehow overheated and I'd managed to fry the radiator, CAT, engine mounts, coils, and other things I can't remember. $3300.
Now if I haven't sounded dumb enough yet, how can the car continue to run absolutely fine for an entire week with an assortment of parts completely ruined with no symptoms but an error light? The dealership offered me $1500 for it in its current state and I'm looking at getting a new car.
But before I part with the most fun car I've ever had, and probably destroyed in my ignorance, I had to check - did I really destroy it, or is the dealership lying?
tl;dr engine light came on, car running fine, drove it 100 miles home and to the dealership and I've supposedly fried it.
I apologize in advance for how ignorant I'm about to sound but I figured I'd run it by all of you kind folks before I did anything.
I love my 8, I've had it for 3 years and despite the constant maintenance issues with the thing, I love driving it. Two weeks after we got it the compression died and we got a new engine for free under warranty.
Now, last week the check engine light came on while I was driving up on business about 100 miles. It came on right as I was flooring it to get through some traffic, and the light blinked. I figured it was a misfire, no big deal. It'll go away in a little bit. Wrong. It stayed solid. My 8 has a notorious history of showing warning lights that mean absolutely jack. The engine coolant sensor had been broken for the past year, and I had checked the coolant level myself the week prior when I had added oil - it was fine.
I finished my drive and turned off the car, figuring it would go away. The next drive was a short one to get a bite to eat and it was still on. I figured cycling the power would have reset it but apparently not, so I checked the forums and read about other check engine lights being associated with loose hoses or something I probably didn't really understand. I went "alright, it can wait."
I drove back down last Friday, about 100 miles back, and the car was fine. It was running fine, the temperature gauges all normal and nothing else going wrong with the exception of the engine light. I get home and call the dealership and schedule some service and bring it in on Saturday. I learn today that supposedly the engine had somehow overheated and I'd managed to fry the radiator, CAT, engine mounts, coils, and other things I can't remember. $3300.
Now if I haven't sounded dumb enough yet, how can the car continue to run absolutely fine for an entire week with an assortment of parts completely ruined with no symptoms but an error light? The dealership offered me $1500 for it in its current state and I'm looking at getting a new car.
But before I part with the most fun car I've ever had, and probably destroyed in my ignorance, I had to check - did I really destroy it, or is the dealership lying?
tl;dr engine light came on, car running fine, drove it 100 miles home and to the dealership and I've supposedly fried it.
03-09-2015, 08:30 PM
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Not only does the dealership's diagnosis sound wrong, but their price isn't even right for their diagnosis... something fishy is going on here.
Regarding the CEL from a misfire, you likely had it set solid from the misfires. While a flashing CEL is always a misfire, you can get a solid CEL from a misfire without flashing first, and you can have a flashing one go solid. Very few CELs will self-clear, and the ones that do require at least 3 drive cycles. The fact that the light wasn't "going away" likely only meant that it needed to be cleared once it was confirmed what it was and why.
We can help walk you through proper diagnosis of their odd claims, though I am unsure of your mechanical aptitude. How hands on are you willing to get to figure out and solve it?
Regarding the CEL from a misfire, you likely had it set solid from the misfires. While a flashing CEL is always a misfire, you can get a solid CEL from a misfire without flashing first, and you can have a flashing one go solid. Very few CELs will self-clear, and the ones that do require at least 3 drive cycles. The fact that the light wasn't "going away" likely only meant that it needed to be cleared once it was confirmed what it was and why.
We can help walk you through proper diagnosis of their odd claims, though I am unsure of your mechanical aptitude. How hands on are you willing to get to figure out and solve it?
03-09-2015, 08:40 PM
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Well I had more than 3 drive cycles. It had probably been cycled around 10 times after various short five minute drives.
I really don't know anything about cars. The extent of my knowledge ends at adding oil and checking engine coolant. I don't trust a MAZDA DEALERSHIP that sold us an RX-8 with no compression in the engine after they told us it was fine. We were lucky it was on warranty.
Should I have seen some symptoms beforehand if their diagnosis was correct? I'll do what I can to verify but I have limited tools and knowledge. The car is currently at the dealer sitting in their lot as I make a decision.
I really don't know anything about cars. The extent of my knowledge ends at adding oil and checking engine coolant. I don't trust a MAZDA DEALERSHIP that sold us an RX-8 with no compression in the engine after they told us it was fine. We were lucky it was on warranty.
Should I have seen some symptoms beforehand if their diagnosis was correct? I'll do what I can to verify but I have limited tools and knowledge. The car is currently at the dealer sitting in their lot as I make a decision.
03-09-2015, 08:45 PM
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Checked my list - the full parts list of what "needs" to be replaced is as follows:
Radiator, CAT, Engine Mounts, Ignition Coils, solenoid, and the subtank.
Radiator, CAT, Engine Mounts, Ignition Coils, solenoid, and the subtank.
03-09-2015, 08:47 PM
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I would start with taking it to an auto parts store like Autozone or O'Rileys, have them read the code.
I would get the codes read by someone other than the dealer, and go from there. Ask for help here to recommend a good place for service in your area, or a member that can give you a hand. I would, um, not go back to that dealership.
Next question is what maintenance have you done, miles on the car since that maintenance, and other issues. Give us a feel for what you are have.
I use an ultragauge in my car. It will read and reset codes, as well as tell me the temp and other stuff. A great investment at $60.
I would get the codes read by someone other than the dealer, and go from there. Ask for help here to recommend a good place for service in your area, or a member that can give you a hand. I would, um, not go back to that dealership.
Next question is what maintenance have you done, miles on the car since that maintenance, and other issues. Give us a feel for what you are have.
I use an ultragauge in my car. It will read and reset codes, as well as tell me the temp and other stuff. A great investment at $60.
03-09-2015, 08:49 PM
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Well, overheating isn't cut and dried like it is in other cars. You CAN overheat and damage the engine without the coolant gauge ever moving, since it doesn't start moving till 235F, and you can suffer a coolant seal failure as low as 220F.
That being said, even IF you overheated the engine, that has nothing to do with the coils, cat, or motor mounts. If you have a coil failure, that could damage the cat, but not the motor mounts or the radiator.
A dealer's price for those items you listed would be something like:
- Engine, List $3,300, customer charge $3,800-$4,500, plus $1,000-$2,500 labor
- Coils: List $200, customer charge $250-$400, plus $200-400 labor
- Motor Mounts: List (?), customer charge $500-600, plus $400-600 labor
- Radiator: List $150, customer charge $250-300, plus $200-300 labor
Those are typical prices a dealer will charge. Even if they AREN'T trying to rip you off, their $3,300 is an 'at cost' charge for the engine itself, and they would be claiming to be giving you all the labor and the rest of the parts for free? No dice, they aren't that generous. Their $1,500 offer for the car right off the top says that.
It's more likely that you have simple old ignition that needs replacing and the dealership is trying to take you for a ride.
That being said, even IF you overheated the engine, that has nothing to do with the coils, cat, or motor mounts. If you have a coil failure, that could damage the cat, but not the motor mounts or the radiator.
A dealer's price for those items you listed would be something like:
- Engine, List $3,300, customer charge $3,800-$4,500, plus $1,000-$2,500 labor
- Coils: List $200, customer charge $250-$400, plus $200-400 labor
- Motor Mounts: List (?), customer charge $500-600, plus $400-600 labor
- Radiator: List $150, customer charge $250-300, plus $200-300 labor
Those are typical prices a dealer will charge. Even if they AREN'T trying to rip you off, their $3,300 is an 'at cost' charge for the engine itself, and they would be claiming to be giving you all the labor and the rest of the parts for free? No dice, they aren't that generous. Their $1,500 offer for the car right off the top says that.
It's more likely that you have simple old ignition that needs replacing and the dealership is trying to take you for a ride.
03-09-2015, 08:53 PM
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They claimed $3300 parts and labor. I asked for an appraisal from them for both out right and trade in values. They told me they'd buy it for $1500, so they didn't approach me first, but it still seems odd.
I had read about early RX-8s having weak starters, and my 8 was sounding extremely weak starting this past month. Could that set off a CEL?
Is what the dealership is telling me complete bogus, or is there some potential truth in it? Want to get an idea before I go down there tomorrow and get it and pay their $120 inspection fee and take it somewhere else.
I had read about early RX-8s having weak starters, and my 8 was sounding extremely weak starting this past month. Could that set off a CEL?
Is what the dealership is telling me complete bogus, or is there some potential truth in it? Want to get an idea before I go down there tomorrow and get it and pay their $120 inspection fee and take it somewhere else.
03-09-2015, 09:00 PM
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There were 4 different starter models, but that isn't really relevant. True, each updated starter is faster when new than the one before, but the model number doesn't matter, the cranking speed is. An original starter could still crank faster than the most recent one, if the most recent one has been cranking daily for the past 6 years and the original model number starter has been sitting in a garage without being touched. Cranking speed matters, not model number.
And no, a slow starter won't trigger a CEL. Failing ignition could trigger a misfire AND cause a slow start though. Another point in favor of simple ignition maintenance needed.
The CEL officially stands for "Check Engine Light", but "Check Emissions Light" would be more accurate, since only some of the CEL 125 or so CEL codes are engine related, but nearly all of them are emissions related.
There could be some truth to their statement, but if there is it is being deliberately buried in among other bogus stuff to try to make some money off of you. Buying an RX-8 that has a coil failure for $1,500 and reselling it for $9,000 is a pretty good deal...
Replacing the ignition only requires a 3/8ths socket wrench, an extension, a 10mm socket, a spark plug socket (5/8ths), and about an hour of time if you don't know what you are doing. You can get all 4 coils, plugs, and wires from Advance Auto Parts shipped to your door for about $190. The RX-8 is really really easy to work on. Dealers just upcharge the hell out of it. Most of us become our own mechanics for that reason.
And no, a slow starter won't trigger a CEL. Failing ignition could trigger a misfire AND cause a slow start though. Another point in favor of simple ignition maintenance needed.
The CEL officially stands for "Check Engine Light", but "Check Emissions Light" would be more accurate, since only some of the CEL 125 or so CEL codes are engine related, but nearly all of them are emissions related.
There could be some truth to their statement, but if there is it is being deliberately buried in among other bogus stuff to try to make some money off of you. Buying an RX-8 that has a coil failure for $1,500 and reselling it for $9,000 is a pretty good deal...
Replacing the ignition only requires a 3/8ths socket wrench, an extension, a 10mm socket, a spark plug socket (5/8ths), and about an hour of time if you don't know what you are doing. You can get all 4 coils, plugs, and wires from Advance Auto Parts shipped to your door for about $190. The RX-8 is really really easy to work on. Dealers just upcharge the hell out of it. Most of us become our own mechanics for that reason.
03-09-2015, 09:06 PM
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Supposedly the motor mounts were irrelevant to the overheating and just needed to be replaced, but they claimed the rest of the issues were directly caused by overheating. Not sure how much that changes.
I'll see if I can find a shop that services RX-8s and take it in there. If I take the car back from the dealership and take it on a 20 minute drive to a shop, is there a risk I could cause even more damage? Feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
I'll see if I can find a shop that services RX-8s and take it in there. If I take the car back from the dealership and take it on a 20 minute drive to a shop, is there a risk I could cause even more damage? Feel like I'm stuck between a rock and a hard place.
03-09-2015, 09:10 PM
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If the only driveability problem was a lit CEL, you are fine to drive it 20 minutes, probably a few hours at least. If you start detecting a loss of power at high RPM, then it is no longer safe. This is under the assumption that this is just an ignition problem.
If the problem is engine damage from overheating, then yeah, you could probably drive it several thousand miles or more before having a problem. Potentially tens of thousands of miles. Not recommended, but a coolant seal failure isn't something that is instantly harmful to everything, and it will only slowly kill the engine through sludging and corrosion.
Either way, I'm pretty sure you are fine.
I recommend just taking it home for now, and get in contact with local members. Specifically, look up SARX, a rotary club in San Antonio. Not Austin obviously, but they should be able to point you to someone local that can assist better than I can.
And no, excluding the motor mounts from the question, this dealership is still feeding you a lot of crap.
If the problem is engine damage from overheating, then yeah, you could probably drive it several thousand miles or more before having a problem. Potentially tens of thousands of miles. Not recommended, but a coolant seal failure isn't something that is instantly harmful to everything, and it will only slowly kill the engine through sludging and corrosion.
Either way, I'm pretty sure you are fine.
I recommend just taking it home for now, and get in contact with local members. Specifically, look up SARX, a rotary club in San Antonio. Not Austin obviously, but they should be able to point you to someone local that can assist better than I can.
And no, excluding the motor mounts from the question, this dealership is still feeding you a lot of crap.
03-09-2015, 09:50 PM
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Found an automotive shop that's suggested by a local RX club and I'll be taking it in there tomorrow. Regardless, might end up just paying for repairs instead of getting a new car, but I'm certainly not going to the dealership again. Not prepared to give it up just yet, even though it has been an absolute pain in the rear.
03-10-2015, 03:33 AM
#12
You gonna eat that?
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Kinda like marriage.
They're a lot easier when you do most of the work.
They're a lot easier when you do most of the work.
03-10-2015, 01:13 PM
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Took it into the new shop today and just got the news back.
My engine coolant sensor supposedly wasn't broken, just badly designed, so they installed the upgraded tank w/ sensor. The dealer told me it was a faulty sensor last year when I brought the problem up, trying to charge $400 to replace it.
My two front ignition coils were operating fine and were clean, and my rear two were messed up. The leading coil wasn't firing at all and the second coil was firing erratically, which explained my power loss at low RPMs. The CEL codes they pulled pointed towards the ignition coils. They said that the wiring on the ignition coil looked original and that the coils had probably never been replaced - my car has 61k miles on it (engine replacement at 51k under warranty after compression failure).
I'm half way between shocked and disgusted. I was really grasping at straws when I thought the dealership might be lying. Not sure how anyone with any dignity at all could throw an additional $2300 in unnecessary parts and labor on someone. I'm assuming the new shop I've taken it to got it right, they're extremely friendly and did a great job with a fluid exchange last time I took it there. I'm not sure if I should worry about any potential validity from the dealer, or trust the new guys since they didn't find any other problems.
Either way, thank you RIWWP, because you probably saved my car. I really appreciate your help.
My engine coolant sensor supposedly wasn't broken, just badly designed, so they installed the upgraded tank w/ sensor. The dealer told me it was a faulty sensor last year when I brought the problem up, trying to charge $400 to replace it.
My two front ignition coils were operating fine and were clean, and my rear two were messed up. The leading coil wasn't firing at all and the second coil was firing erratically, which explained my power loss at low RPMs. The CEL codes they pulled pointed towards the ignition coils. They said that the wiring on the ignition coil looked original and that the coils had probably never been replaced - my car has 61k miles on it (engine replacement at 51k under warranty after compression failure).
I'm half way between shocked and disgusted. I was really grasping at straws when I thought the dealership might be lying. Not sure how anyone with any dignity at all could throw an additional $2300 in unnecessary parts and labor on someone. I'm assuming the new shop I've taken it to got it right, they're extremely friendly and did a great job with a fluid exchange last time I took it there. I'm not sure if I should worry about any potential validity from the dealer, or trust the new guys since they didn't find any other problems.
Either way, thank you RIWWP, because you probably saved my car. I really appreciate your help.
03-10-2015, 01:24 PM
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That diagnosis sounds thorough, and accurate, with a comparable price to match.
I'd trust them over the dealership's clearly wild statements.
You should be good to go.
Consider replacing those other two coils though. Just because they haven't failed yet doesn't mean that they aren't very very old. We advocate replacing them every 30,000 miles as preventative maintenance, since a failure can cause so many problems.
Even just from the power side... an RX-8 with original factory coils at 30,000 miles was dynoed at 172whp. Then the ignition was replaced with brand new OEM ignition, and it jumped to 199whp. That demonstrates the performance lost just from old coils half the age of the ones you have that weren't even causing misfires.
So consider replacing those other two as well.
Glad I could help. Always come here first. If someone here tells you something wrong, everyone else is more than happy to step in and correct it.
I'd trust them over the dealership's clearly wild statements.
You should be good to go.
Consider replacing those other two coils though. Just because they haven't failed yet doesn't mean that they aren't very very old. We advocate replacing them every 30,000 miles as preventative maintenance, since a failure can cause so many problems.
Even just from the power side... an RX-8 with original factory coils at 30,000 miles was dynoed at 172whp. Then the ignition was replaced with brand new OEM ignition, and it jumped to 199whp. That demonstrates the performance lost just from old coils half the age of the ones you have that weren't even causing misfires.
So consider replacing those other two as well.
Glad I could help. Always come here first. If someone here tells you something wrong, everyone else is more than happy to step in and correct it.
03-10-2015, 01:26 PM
#15
You gonna eat that?
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Dealer service ripoffs are not unusual, sorry to say.
03-10-2015, 01:35 PM
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You mean coolant level sensor and yes failure is common. And dealer techs can be the worse, and ripping people off is something dealers do often and it pisses me off. Diagnosis by parts replacement is very common thing at dealers. But that is why I do my own work.
Coincidently I had it out with the Nissan dealer over my GF's Juke yesterday. She has 30,000 miles on it and she went in for a TSB on the AC and they tried to charge her like $250.00 for a CVT fluid change (not needed until 60,000 miles according to the maintenance book) and a cabin filter and air filter (that were new because I replaced them). I called and raised hell and got the normal BS apology from the service manager. But they lost a customer for good, my GF was pissed and will never buy a car there again or go there for service. Hopefully the other Nissan dealers in town treat her better.
Coincidently I had it out with the Nissan dealer over my GF's Juke yesterday. She has 30,000 miles on it and she went in for a TSB on the AC and they tried to charge her like $250.00 for a CVT fluid change (not needed until 60,000 miles according to the maintenance book) and a cabin filter and air filter (that were new because I replaced them). I called and raised hell and got the normal BS apology from the service manager. But they lost a customer for good, my GF was pissed and will never buy a car there again or go there for service. Hopefully the other Nissan dealers in town treat her better.
03-10-2015, 01:48 PM
#17
I'm in Austin too, is this Roger Beasley Mazda by chance?
They've always been good to me, but I've never needed any major repairs. If this is true maybe I'll have to take my business somewhere else
They've always been good to me, but I've never needed any major repairs. If this is true maybe I'll have to take my business somewhere else
03-10-2015, 01:56 PM
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Roger Beasley Mazda Georgetown, yes.
When we bought the car they told us the engine was fine, and two weeks later it has compression failure. Thank god for warranty. Then misleading information about the coolant level sensor, and not doing their job. They supposedly were supposed to fill up my tires while it was in as part of their inspection. Drove it to the new shop today and the light was on so I asked him to check it out for me, and he said my tires were low. Great.
That stuff is minor in comparison to trying to charge $3300 in repairs I didn't need, claiming I had ruined parts through "overheating" that had never happened. I don't know if Central is any better than Georgetown but I'll be staying away from anything with the Roger Beasley name on it.
When we bought the car they told us the engine was fine, and two weeks later it has compression failure. Thank god for warranty. Then misleading information about the coolant level sensor, and not doing their job. They supposedly were supposed to fill up my tires while it was in as part of their inspection. Drove it to the new shop today and the light was on so I asked him to check it out for me, and he said my tires were low. Great.
That stuff is minor in comparison to trying to charge $3300 in repairs I didn't need, claiming I had ruined parts through "overheating" that had never happened. I don't know if Central is any better than Georgetown but I'll be staying away from anything with the Roger Beasley name on it.
03-10-2015, 02:10 PM
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Yeah all dealers suffer from this sadly. Roger Beasley has a good rep but no dealers pay very well so finding a dealer with a competent tech who cares is tough. And even when they do care they often just don't have the training, especially on the RX-8's. We have a local member who was a tech for years at the largest Mazda dealer here (largest in south texas IIRC), he had zero experience when he was hired. Smart guy but with little training there is only so much you can do.
I went thru this when I had warranty and with my extended warranty, I was constantly correcting them and arguing with them. Their answer for everything was to replace something until the problem was sorted. I went thru it with three local dealers. I had a problem with my fuel level sending unit and they replaced the whole gas tank and pumps, but I didn't argue then I just let them do it under warranty
. When my alternator overcharged and fried a bunch of stuff and I was past my standard warranty they were stumped, they kept replacing the battery (new both times), blaming this, blaming that, saying it had a short, etc. I finally took the alternator off myself and took it to an alternator shop and the guy told me in five minutes that the alternator was bad and overcharging.
Both of my air bags needs to be replaced under the recall and I am planning to take the day off to watch them do it so they don't **** up anything on my baby.
I went thru this when I had warranty and with my extended warranty, I was constantly correcting them and arguing with them. Their answer for everything was to replace something until the problem was sorted. I went thru it with three local dealers. I had a problem with my fuel level sending unit and they replaced the whole gas tank and pumps, but I didn't argue then I just let them do it under warranty
. When my alternator overcharged and fried a bunch of stuff and I was past my standard warranty they were stumped, they kept replacing the battery (new both times), blaming this, blaming that, saying it had a short, etc. I finally took the alternator off myself and took it to an alternator shop and the guy told me in five minutes that the alternator was bad and overcharging.Both of my air bags needs to be replaced under the recall and I am planning to take the day off to watch them do it so they don't **** up anything on my baby.
03-10-2015, 03:03 PM
#20
Roger Beasley Mazda Georgetown, yes.
When we bought the car they told us the engine was fine, and two weeks later it has compression failure. Thank god for warranty. Then misleading information about the coolant level sensor, and not doing their job. They supposedly were supposed to fill up my tires while it was in as part of their inspection. Drove it to the new shop today and the light was on so I asked him to check it out for me, and he said my tires were low. Great.
That stuff is minor in comparison to trying to charge $3300 in repairs I didn't need, claiming I had ruined parts through "overheating" that had never happened. I don't know if Central is any better than Georgetown but I'll be staying away from anything with the Roger Beasley name on it.
When we bought the car they told us the engine was fine, and two weeks later it has compression failure. Thank god for warranty. Then misleading information about the coolant level sensor, and not doing their job. They supposedly were supposed to fill up my tires while it was in as part of their inspection. Drove it to the new shop today and the light was on so I asked him to check it out for me, and he said my tires were low. Great.
That stuff is minor in comparison to trying to charge $3300 in repairs I didn't need, claiming I had ruined parts through "overheating" that had never happened. I don't know if Central is any better than Georgetown but I'll be staying away from anything with the Roger Beasley name on it.
03-11-2015, 08:22 PM
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Got the car back today with the new ignition coils. I don't remember it ever being this fast, especially at low RPMs. Runs perfectly.
If you're in Austin, take it to Christian Brothers, they won't try and gut you like Roger Beasley will.
If you're in Austin, take it to Christian Brothers, they won't try and gut you like Roger Beasley will.
03-16-2015, 10:32 PM
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That quote is a disaster. most of the work on these cars is technically easier. That quote is for absolute total rebuild apocalypse XD make sure you know what you're paying for. I would get a second or third set of eyes. Try the forums for any good connections locally.
edit: oh you did. well then. carry on. :P good stuff
edit: oh you did. well then. carry on. :P good stuff
03-17-2015, 03:08 PM
#25
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Join Date: Oct 2014
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This is one vehicle that I highly recommend working on yourself if you have the tools and aren't afraid to get your hands dirty. There are too many things that are unique to it that dealers and shops often just don't get right. Personally, I always feel better knowing that I did the work because I am OCD about things being done correctly.