Dean Karol

This is my first post but I have owned my RX8 three years and have been reading your website constantly since I bought the car. I have spent two days looking on the Internet everywhere for this information and it doesn't seem like anyone's talking about it.
Brief background... I was a car dealer and I've owned 1400 cars in my life. Many of them sports cars because that's what I love. I've had a little racecar training.
I still have much to learn.
The question… do modern sports cars like high end Lamborghinis and Bugatti's and even the RX8 need the stability and traction control system to be a relatively stable?

I understand that you can learn to drive this car and any car with practice without a traction control system.

What brings up this question... Yesterday I did a 360 on the road and I had turned off the traction control. One of the things that I loved about the eight the most was it stability and handling. I always thought it had pretty good contract with the road on dry pavement.

What gets me thinking is that no other car that I have owned would behave like this and most of them did not have traction control system. This includes Corvettes Mustangs Jaguars Maserati Porsches MR2s 300 and350 Z's And many other cars.

So do modern cars need the traction control system to handle relatively stably?
I do understand that you can learn to drive the car with practice.

I did find on the Internet where they recommend high-end performance supercars not to turn off traction control.

My thinking is it might have something to do with power to weight ratio and of course weight over the rear wheels.

Please tell me what you guys think about all of this.

yurcivicsux

I wont drive my car without it, the DSC has saved my *** a few times. can't imagine driving a lambo on the streets with without stability.

Dean Karol

But my real question is why? Because if you have a Corvette or any other high-end car that is not the very most modern but with plenty of power they didn't have traction control systems and yet they drove stably. Countless times I would push the mustang or the police car or the Corvette and maybe the rear end comes out a little but it doesn't completely fishtail back-and-forth.

I as well as my wife who has been in many cars with me are confused about this. Thank you for your answer and I do agree with you.

Spin9k

There are many factors, but in the case of the RX-8 consider these:

1. It's a short, light car (~3K lbs) and it's moment of inertia is low, and that is major factor compared to a heavy car, even a powerful one. This comes from the RX-8's mass being so centered, and so it is relatively easy to get it to rotate when rotational torque is applied. If you've ever skied, you realize long skis are stable, short ones are not. Your weight being in the middle of the ski, means the shorter ski has a lower moment of inertia (than the longer ski), and so is less stable.

2. The torque needed to start rotation is offset by the friction the tires have with the road. That's plenty in many cases. However, if you ask the rear tires to provide forward acceleration simultaneously, the tires lateral grip is reduced, sometimes to nearly nothing. This can easily get you into the 360 degree rotation (spin) you mention. Going around a corner and accelerating makes this very easy to do.

3. Tires matter. Sticky race tires 'stick' better than street tires. My street tires get me rotating a lot faster than my race tires, other conditions being roughly equal. On the track, with traction control off using race tires (nicely warmed up, of course), it's pretty hard to get them to let go sideways (until they do!). On the street, I can manage it (with cold street or track tires) just starting off around a corner with mild acceleration.

Dean Karol

Thank you very much yes that does clear up some of my thoughts.
But the information I can find on the Internet and personal experience is that modern cars are dependent on this traction control system to be drivable.
Even a like car like an MR2 had oversteer at understeer depending on what you were doing with the car but it didn't lose complete the control.

More refined question… are manufactures building cars designed to run only with traction control ?

Dean Karol

Or said a different way ... What changed where modern cars need traction control to stay on the road?
Or if DSC is off you go drifting around corners very easily and even fishtailing! What changed ?
Old high-performance cars did not need traction control.

I very much appreciate your thinking on this everyone :-) I know you guys have had a lot of cars like I have and love sports cars that's why we own RX8))

Do you like having to depend on a computer for reasonable stability?
( reasonable, without the rear end coming way out uncontrollably)

Please let me know what you guys think ) Thank you

Loki

iTrader: (1)

I don't really believe modern cars need computers to stay on the road. They need computers to stay on the road at 10/10th, that last little bit of performance that most humans are too slow to manage.

The RX8 is a very tame car, of you're having unexpected spins, either the car is broken or the driver.

Can you describe thr conditions under which you had your spin?

Dean Karol

I would agree with you that the RX8 is a very tame car. This is why I was so surprised that it lost control yesterday.
The only research I found on the net said that high end supercars you should not turn the traction control off. There are videos of them spinning out of control.
Why did they become so unstable with the traction control off ?
I'm sure you agree with me that older cars like Corvettes Mustangs of the 90s Porsches of the 90s would get a little happy in the rear end but never completely swap ends with anybody who knew how to steer into the slide.

Are the base model RX8s without traction control stable? I'm sure they are.

Maybe the answer is in power? My car is German spec and it has a very good power output I have obtained the speed of 279 km an hour and it was still climbing when I ran out of Road.
I've done some performance upgrades but I'm not sure exactly what power is being put out but it is very fast.

So you take all that power and put it through a small suspension and you get inherent instability. It's just a theory.

The conditions… Dry road coming out of a turn, first gear… Yes I was competing.. D.SC. Off
... I didn't see anything on the road surface but it certainly felt like I hit oil.
I was able to get the car back under control without hitting anything but for a long time I was completely out of control and had to come to a complete stop.

Thank you for your comments and I would like to hear more of your opinion.

mobius911

The power-to-weight ratio for the modern cars is the reason the stability control is needed. And the threat of lawsuits is why the manufacturers don't want it turned off.

Plenty of the old, relatively low power sports cars were prone to spinning, like a 911 and its lift-throttle oversteer. That was happening even when they only had 130 HP. So I don't think the cars were inherently more stable then. You probably experienced something similar, perhaps helped along by a slick patch.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

It's all traction. If you ask the tires for more than the amount of grip they have then they slip

If the front slips before the rear it will push...or oversteer ( Most cars do this for safety. I guess they think it is better to see yourself drive off the road than go in backwards )

If the rear slips first it will make the rear step out..and depending on the moment the car has on it when it starts it can rotate fast

The RX-8 is pretty balanced. It tends to be controllable when it lets go. If you have altered the suspension with different shocks, sway bars then it depends on your setup what will happen.

Are you sure you didn't just drive over some oil or coolant on the road? With a stockish suspension liberal application of throttle and some greasy roads I can see that happening

Dean Karol

Dannobre yes it is possible that I had some oil. That would explain it))
Thanks for the comment

Mobius911 I just looked into it and a 1995 Mustang and the RX8 are weighted just about the same maybe 200 pounds more for the mustang. The power output is very similar although it's a very different type of power))

But I did feel that the mustang had a lot more heaviness over top of the wheels and also wider tire contact patch. I know that I could've never gotten that car to spend that far out of control at 40 miles an hour.

It literally felt like I was on ice so maybe it was oil or coolant.

But I tend to agree with you that there is a higher power to weight ratio now and also maybe thinner Wheel stance. It certainly does seem to me that they are designing cars that need traction control to operate in a normal non-race Environment properly.

The Corvettes that I have owned have been very wide with huge wheels. They seemed to be like a big wide flat carpet on the road. Tremendous torque and power so you could break the rear free easily but with a slight steer into the slide it would fall right back in line.

Needless to say I am confused but I think may be the best thought is really hitting some oil.


So my question do you turn your traction control off and if you do do you get sideways very easily?

Is it easy to feel the slide and drift it and bring it back straight for you?

I would really love to hear everyone's comments and I thank you for your comments ))

Loki

iTrader: (1)

In first gear, I can see why you ended up sideways. At the top of the rpm range it's easy to upset the car with a rough throttle input. That's true for any car though.

I find DSC can make the recovery harder once you've departed controlles flight, because it's giving inputs you're not expecting.

Just be gentle with her

mobius911

Another notable difference- the Mustang (and many front engine cars) has most of its weight over the front wheels, so I'm guessing it tends to push (understeer) at the limit. That would feel "more stable" to most on the street; not that fun or fast on the track.

dannobre

iTrader: (3)

I have custom tuned suspension...much Stiffer springs and sways 285 width slicks and 450+ HP

I can keep up to almost anything....and the car is very neutral. I can make it rotate with the throttle, but it is very predictable and not twitchy at all

Dean Karol

I agree with you Loki. The only thing that makes me feel very strange about this is how violently it lost control at 40 miles an hour and for the length of time that it stayed out of control. As I said I was able not to hit anything but even with the training I've had( which obviously I need more) I couldn't get it back under control. I still was in first and of course I lifted the throttle off as soon as it started to slide I turned Into slide was able to get back straight and then she went the other direction and pivoted completely around and till I came to a stop. The only thing I can account for that this would happen would be hitting some oil possibly. Tires are new.

Everyone here seems to say that it's a very neutraly balanced car even without D.SC. On.

Dean Karol

I have owned for many years and raced cars like Corvette Mustang and Porsche. The mustang was the car I had the longest. It is very very stable and almost equally balanced. The rear end can come out oversteer but it is very controllable and never would slide completely around.
Oh for sure is I have owned besides the 911 were very equally balanced
And the Corvettes very flat and extremely good ground contact, hell the tires were half of the size of the car itself)) you can Pivot a Corvette but when the rear end comes out you can simply turn into the slide and immediately you're straight again extremely controllable and I would say very neutral he balanced.
On all of these cars the engine is set very far back behind the front axles just like in the RX eight

Dean Karol

It sounds like a very sweet ride I'm sure that you would've given the Corvette even a run for it's money
Yes I know you're putting out quite a bit more horses that I am
Maybe I need to do some suspension tuning. But now I'm really beginning to think that I must've hit some oil due to the fact that it was such a violent complete loss of traction. But I plan to try to find a place here where there is no cars and good pavement turn the traction control off and do some playing to really understand what is going on. For three years it's been the most stable car and extremely fun to drive even add very high speeds.
But as soon as I turned off the DSC the car went crazy

Do You race with your DSC on ?

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

IMO, the Traction Control is moderately pointless unless putting the power down is actually difficult for the car. (The 8 doesn't have this problem)

The Stability Control is a different matter. I see it as like a seatbelt. You will drive most of your life without ever needing it, hoping your entire life without needing it. But if you are suddenly and unexpectedly in a situation where you do need it, having it can mean the difference between a minor problem and a life changing event.

Dean Karol

Wow you are so right! I lumped them both together in my comments here because you can't turn off one without turning off the other. If there was a way to turn off traction control and still leave on the stability control this would be the ideal.
There's not a way to do this is there any electrical trick?
I'm going to do some testing but from everyone's comments here I think that I must've hit some oil or antifreeze. The car went way out of control for the small amount to speed that I was doing. And after that I cut power so it should definitely have grabbed road again. But it didn't it remains completely free sliding until I was able to bring it to a stop. I know I didn't hit the brakes I was in full steer mode. I remember finally hitting the brakes at the very end. All 4 wheels were loose of grip.
So from everyone's comments here I'm thinking that I must've hit something. Do you agree?

Dean Karol

I know I'm talking a lot about this. I hope I'm not getting on anyone's nerves.

My wife just said " in all the many sports cars that we've owned and driven hard, no car has never acted like that".

It still bothers me because I love this car so much. But it absolutely acted like no other car of ever had on dry roads surface.

RIWWP

iTrader: (2)

Your experience sounds like complete loss of traction, the kind of traction loss that happens with ice or oil or bald tires in heavy rain, etc...

No, you can not disable one and not the other in the RX-8, they both function through the same module, and both use the same fuses, same switches, same wiring. Mazda didn't include a way for only 1 to work and not the other. In theory, if you convert to a physical cable throttle, then you can leave DSC engaged (which only acts on the ABS system) but remove it's ability to engage TCS (which acts only on the electronic throttle). But you would also remove other stuff that works on the electronic throttle, like cruise control.

Khurram

Like everyone else suggested above, rx8 is very well balanced and the stock suspension is nicely tuned by Mazda.

I have upgraded most of my suspension to HSD Coilovers, Whiteline sways and RB endlinks. My car is much stiffer than stock, sits far lower, motor is ported, and the exhaust is upgraded all the way from the header, the difference over stock can be immediately felt. With all those mods, I still can't get my car to break loose with the traction control on mainly because of my Falken Azenis 255's in the rear. However, take the traction off, esp in 1st gear and she loves spinning.

My best guess is, you either took a turn at higher speed with traction off or you really hit some oil or coolant deposits on the road.

Play arround in an empty parking lot with your traction off and see how she behaves :-). You should get smoooth 360s and 180s if not then have your suspension inspected something may have gone wrong.

Khurram

Dannobre, 450 + is pretty impressive. What's your setup like? if you don't mind me asking.

Hell, I would be super happy with 350 at the wheels.

Thanks,

Dean Karol

You know I might look into that because I would like to have a wire cable controlling throttle. And here in the snow you have to take the traction control off to even go.
But the stability control DCS is very important.

The road was dry and clean but maybe there was some oil I didn't see

Dean Karol

Yes I'm going to do just that find a parking lot here in Russia if I can it's clean and without many cars "I'm an American living in Russia "parking lots are very hard to find here. And I will see what is what.

I was just at the top of the RPM range in first gear and it started to slide from the rear first obviously I was almost straight at the end of a turn so the lateral forces were not that much. When it started to slide I cut power and turned into the slide and it righted itself but it had pivoted much further than I thought it would. Then it whipped around the other direction and did a 360. Wow
My thinking is it has to be oil on the road.

As I said before I was a car dealer and have owned hundreds of sports cars and none of them would've done that.

Surprising !!