SupersonicDonut

I have meticulously combed these forums for advice, and found plenty. Only reason I am posting this is mainly to double check before I buy something.
There are two 8s that I have driven and really want. both are around 80k mi, which is a lot. One is an 08 the other is an 09 gt, automatic and standard, respectively.
besides taking to mazda to get it checked out and trying to get a compression check done and see if anything major is up with it, what should i look for?
Both have Clean 1 owner records, and drive smooth and buttery. Not to say that doesn't indicate some problems.

Is there any way to tell if it is synthetic oil? One main question I have, as I am savvy with working on stuff, but not the finer details of things.

anyway...
Any advice, or help? Except for people saying don't do it, any and all thoughts are welcome :p


P.s- yes I have considered the maintenance and nearly constant care you must take with the rotary, but I am willing to take that responsibility. And I have read the entire post about 'New and potential owners'
so yeah, I want to do it lol.

ZoomEricZoom

The 2009 RX-8 and up was greatly improved by Mazda... As you can see here: https://www.rx8club.com/series-ii-te...s-i-ii-161665/

However, you said that you're looking at an Automatic... And I've read that those can have some reliability issues, even with it being a Series 2.

Sounds like a toss up to me... But if the 2008 is a Manual, I would lean toward that because the 40th Anniversary Editions are sweet!

Steve Dallas

I would lean toward the 2009 due to all the improvements made, but do realize that not all S1 parts will fit S2 cars, which limits your options in a few places for aftermarket upgrades. I am thinking specifically of suspension parts. If that doesn't matter to you, and it has not been too much of a hindrance for me besides some expensive learning experiences, go for the newer one.

I also want to take an exception to one thing you said: "try to get a compression test." You absolutely must get a compression test. If you don't, you may find yourself sitting on a ticking timebomb with only 1 or 2 years and 20K miles worth of powertrain warranty left.

SupersonicDonut

I know that one is nessicary for that reason exactly, guess it was just miswording my bad :p

I have read it runs 150-200$ at a dealership sound about right?
And the 09 is the manual, 08 is the 40th anniversary edition automatic

ZoomEricZoom

I would go with the '09 all day long then...

Still, get a Compression Test at your local Mazda Dealer... Just to be on the safe side.

Shumster

iTrader: (2)

Stay away from autos, also bear in mind that the S2 will still be under engine warranty for roughly a year. Get a compression test, cannot emphasize that enough. The S2s are much improved over the S1s but they aren't perfect. My S2 engine failures do happen.

gwilliams6

Go for the S2 and its manual tranny. Do get that compression test before buying. The cost of a rotary specific compression is minor compared to the cost of replacing or rebuilding a failing or failed rotary engine. Like over 20x to one in terms of cost !

SupersonicDonut

Compression test is later today, I hope it goes well. I kinda really want to get this car :p

SupersonicDonut

I called the dealership and the first thing I said was
"I found an 09 rx-8 I am trying to get..." before I could continue the service tech laughed and said "why?... my dad has worked for mazda for like 38 years and has never seen a rotary worth a crap, they are constantly in and out of here never running right, unless you have an absoloutly absurd amount of money to pour into that car, I wouldn't get it. Besides it is out of warranty."

I proceeded to infom him that under proper care, and I know this from personal experience as an uncle of mine is rotary crazy, the engine lasts/performs fine. It's owners who have no idea what's going on in there that do not care for the vehicle and a minor issue compounds into a major issue.

It upset me.
I know that it is truth in what he said though, there are many issues unless you have throughly read and understand what is required of you per ownership, and even then the unexpected is bound to happen.

Someone tell me if my attitude is ill founded, but to me he basically said every rotary engine car is flawed and broken, no matter what.

ken-x8

You might find a mechanic with first hand knowledge, rather than someone chanting his father's mantra.

A rotary does carry more risk of problems than a piston engine. It's not all owner neglect. There are knowledgeable folks here who have had blown engines. That's why a compression test, usually a good idea on any used car, is really needed for a rotary.

Hope it goes well.

Ken

New Yorker

A few points here...

1) Engine changes to the S2 were minor in nature. Go back and read the back issues of as many auto enthusiast publications as you can find. You'll discover that most never discuss the engine tweaks, if they mention them at all. Oh, they go on and on about the new R3, the new taillights, the revised grille, the updated tachometer and the tweaked gear ratios. But major engine improvements? Uh, no.

2) Most cars undergo a series revision or two or three during the life of the model - usually with literally hundreds, yes hundreds of changes. Most of those changes are small tweaks barely worth a mention. The RX-8 is no exception. For my money, should I ever replace my '05 with another 8, I'll probably go with a 40th Anniversay edition. A Series I. Why? It has the more attractive original grille and fender vents (though I do prefer the S2 taillights/rear end). Yes, the S2 is probably slightly more reliable, but that's a moot point for me; I'm one of those rare American RX-8 owners who checks oil every other fill-up, changes it every 3 months (only non-synthetic 5W-20), lets the engine warm for a few minutes before driving and I "buzz" (redline) the engine several times a day. And oh yeah, no engine mods, tweaks or creative solutions to address non-existent problems on my car. Totally, 100% stock, maintained by the book. So duh, I don't have any reliability issues. Of course, I've only had my 8 for nine years. Just 32K on the engine, but had compression checked at 30K and all the numbers were strong, healthy 9's. Lucky? Hardly. I simply drive and maintain it the way Mazda engineers intended it to be driven and maintained.

3) Obviously your friend's father knows a lot of rotary engine owners who, like probably 75% of American RX-8 owners, don't know how or bother to properly maintain their cars. One point cannot be overemphasized: if you give your 8 the casual, occasional mechanical attention most American owners give their cars, there's a good chance it'll go belly up. That's the dirty little secret few are aware of; compared to piston engines, the Renesis has little tolerance for inconsistent, haphazard maintenance. (In fact, I suspect the minor oiling/cooling tweaks made in the S2 were designed to increase the margin of "owner maintenance error" a bit.) So... skip an oil change or three with a V8 and who knows - your engine may last only 95K miles instead of 150K. Do that with your 8 and you're toast. Why didn't Mazda sales people explain this simple yet important fact to prospective owners? Well think - that knowledge would be just the thing to torpedo the sale. When it comes to cars, people can't be bothered to learn a new set of owner maintenance rules, no matter how simple. (You can bet that owners of new Teslas, Volts and Leafs are keen to learn the new rules for their cars, but those owners have already proven themselves amenable to change by the mere fact that they chose cars with electric motors!)

So realize that, compared to piston-engine cars, it's not harder to properly maintain an RX-8. It's just different. I believe the car buying public was unaware of that.

Good luck with your 8!

gwilliams6

43 yrs of rotary ownership with never a single rotary engine failure with easily over a million rotary miles, including over 60,000 on my 40th Anniversary Edition RX8. New Yorker is right, with proper care and maintenance my rotary cars have been every bit as reliable as my numerous piston cars.

If you do get your RX8 certainly don't take it in for any service at that dealership. Find one whose mechanics understand and appreciate the car. I am lucky I guess that my current dealer has mechanics that appreciate my car and enjoy taking great care of it. And I am also lucky I live nearby legendary rotary wrench ,Jim of JPR Imports who has been a rotary specialist for decades.

To start just be sure to get that compression test before buying any rotary. And if you get a 2008 or later model you will have some warranty left.

Steve Dallas

The major reliability improvements to the S2 car are an upgraded cooling system and upgraded oil injection system. The diff also has larger cooling fins. The gear ratios were also changed in the trans, which has no effect on reliability, but some people like it better. There are hundreds more minor changes and "improvements".

You can upgrade the cooling system on an S1 car yourself for not very much money. You can also improve the oiling system by adding a SOHN and premixing.

For my money, I preferred the S2 package and having more warranty left on the drivetrain. I will admit that I like the looks of the S1 better, but the other considerations outweighed cosmetics for me.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

To be fair, he's a mechanic. He doesn't see the cars that don't have problems.
That's like saying that if 100% of a neurosurgeon's patients have broken brains, all people must have broken brains. And this guy is no neurosurgeon it seems.

SupersonicDonut

I hate typing out a good long post, with a few questions I had. All decisively written... and then I hit the captivate button on the bottom of my galaxy s5, and the page goes back... and I lose everything..




Sooooo, it has been raining, no compression test yet I have been lazy. Got appointment for tomorrow afternoon to go in and do it. Should I drive the car to dealer? I hear a more solid comp test is when it's cold. Hot engine runs higher pressures.. car lot is like ~20 mi from dealership.


And so if the compression test comes back bad, like low comp in one rotor, or one of the faces holds like no pressure.. should I pursue this 8 anymore? Its 09 with like 82k on the clock, so still in warranty. I have read it can be a nightmare to get mazda to warranty an 8s engine and take like 8 weeks Or something outrageous, anyone know if I am dumb, I tried to Google that one but found nothing out..

Only reason I ask is the only other MT 8, and yes I have realized that MT is my preference after driving it again and understanding certain things, is a 2010 with a lot higher $tag..

And it's ~400 miles from home haha...

Any input on all my questions would be awesome. Yous guys are all awesome!

Thanks for all the replies already btw
feeling the 8 love

poacherinthezoo

Rotor housings are aluminum, and expand - decreasing compression - as they heat up. Compression tests must be done on a fully warmed up engine, a cold engine will give artificially high numbers (hence why compression loss is often associated with hot starting difficulties not cold starting). The "checklist" for an accurate compression test is included in the New Owners thread (basically fully warm, and no premix or extra oil in the housings, which would artificially increase the results).

(Some of the following is likely a review for you but here goes anyways....)

Get the compression numbers, RPMs, and your altitude, and correct to 250 rpm at sea level using this hand-dandy calculator: Foxed.ca - Rotary Compression Calculator

Compare the numbers to that listed in the New Owners Thread (https://www.rx8club.com/new-member-f...t-here-202454/ ). If any one number is failing, the engine has failed - as per Mazda's specifications. Game over for that engine. If one of the faces isn't holding any compression (indicative of a side seal issue), you would most likely be able to hear it as that face wouldn't be firing smoothly. If two faces on the same rotor have low compression (or lower than the others), that indicates an apex seal issue. Bear in mind that if the engine is on it's way out, depending on what exactly the issue is, it could result in catastrophic engine failure. For example, if a apex/side seal is out of whack, it could become dislodged, break off, and send metal pieces flying around inside the rotor housing, beating the hell out of everything they come into contact with. Such a situation would destroy (among other things) the (expensive) rotor housing, making a rebuild far more costly (such a situation would not be applicable if you replaced the engine with a reman). Also worth noting is that if it's down on compression and not sealing, the additional blow-by would ruin what remains in a feed-forward type of cycle.

It all depends on the dealership. Some won't bat an eye and replace engines without even compression testing to see if they really are in need of replacement. Other dealers will fight tooth and nail to not replace it (if I remember correctly the dealer has to front the cash for warranty work, and is then reimbursed by Mazda North America - but don't quote me on that.).

Best bet would be to ask the dealer about it (or ask multiple dealers in your area). Tell them the facts, and see how they respond. If they are the same dealer selling the car, then walk away if they won't replace a failing engine before the sale.

If it was me, I would find another RX8 with a healthy engine, as remanufactured engines have their own "issues," and the underlying reason for the engine failure will never be known. [Dealer's aren't suppose to open up failed engines as per Mazda's instructions, they just pull them out and plug new ones in. Furthermore, I certainly wouldn't trust the "expert opinion" of your average mazda dealer tech on the rotary engine. A point elegantly demonstrated by the aforementioned statement from the tech on the phone (in post #9)].

Not everything is replaced when a new/reman engine is installed. Critical systems like the oil metering pumps/lines for example are just swapped over, which can (and has) lead to a very rapid demise of the newly installed engine.

Also, do you have the maintenance history on this particular car? Something to think about with the car being toward the tail end of the warranty period.

The 2010 is likely worth the extra money - more time/miles left on the warranty. The RX8 is not a cheap car to operate and maintain (if you want cheap and tolerate of almost complete neglect of general maintenance get a miata). But the price of admission is clearly worth it to some of us.

I've mentioned the warranty here several times, and I would be remised in my duties as a patron of this online establishment if I didn't include a brief mention of my philosophy on the engine core warranty. I view the warranty as a safety buffer, not a safety net. It's nice to have, but I don't trust it to "catch me" if the engine were to fail. I prefer to include the cost of a new engine on my dime into my budget. The last thing I want is to be caught with my pants down, and suddenly need to come up with $5000. However, everyone financial and general living situation is different so caveat emptor, etc.

Your patience may be rewarded. I searched intermittently for my RX8 for 2 years before finding it, and I was 100% ready to walk away when the dealer wasn't willing to have it compression tested by Mazda before I signed my name on the dotted line.

Here's to hoping the engine checks out with a clean bill of health , and this is all simply the ramblings of a sleep-deprived man desperate to do something other than finish writing my dissertation.

Happy motoring!

SupersonicDonut

That sounds like me, father has spine surgery today so rising st 5am to be at hospital with is a must.
Very much into the terminal point of sleep deprivation but I will catch zzz later.

I will ponder on some of the things you said, poacher, and after paying cash for the 8, my funds will be relatively low for a few months till I save up. I think I calculated it will take me 3mo to save 2500, enough for merely a rebuild, and a little longer, say 4-5mo to afford an outright swap. Plus I am sure the old core would be sellable to someone to redo. So that I why I even considered the option of letting mazda change motor...if the test even comes back bad I am mentally preparing for eventualities that may never happen, and if I can't get 3 months off a reman motor I would have to have the worst luck ever.

Getting out into the rain now, I will post update on if the test goes good at 4pm -6gmt if anyone is curious to an update that should be approx time I leave dealer

SupersonicDonut

As i expected,

Rotor 1
5.8
5.6
5.8

Rotor 2
4,6
4.5
4.8


Basically in the 60-75psi range from what i figured, 14.2x that is psi i have read. so definatly moving on, they even said they looking into warrantying the motor core but there wasn't enough service records but by that time, with what people have said. i would rather find a better one and drive 150-400 miles lol :D but really, in a couple weeks i will travel to check that other one out. 2010 with 35k mi. Black though :p wanted grey/white oh well...

I will update this thread when I have found another prospect to purchase... the hunt is on again.. it only took like 2 or 3 months the first time :D

Thank you for all the replies and advice/knowledge people had, will help now and in the future i am sure...


have fun out there everyone!

DaddyRico

There's a 05 six speed for sale with about 93k miles on it but it runs real strong. What really really turned me off the car was when I checked the oil. It was milkey! The thing I've heard though is that it's apparently well known that the seals for the dip stick houseing allows a little bit of moisture to collect inside, thus giving it an appearance that there is a leak of some sort. Now I live in a somewhat cold environment and I guess that makes sense but I could really use some advise on what else I can expect from this. If it's really " not a big deal" then I'm leaning towards being the new owner of an rx8!

wcs

iTrader: (2)

That sucks dude.
Keep looking ..

SupersonicDonut

So I thought to post this out of curiosity, was just searching through some new 8 listings I haven't checked out since the past two weeks I have been enthralled by one, well that was a bust.

Anyway, if you saw this on a 8's CarFax history what would you think?

Firstly, three owner car...
Secondly this is last mileage reported from second owner, 38,725.

So....

02/12/2015
New owner reported

02/18/2015
Maintenance inspection completed
Spark plug(s) replaced
Drivability/performance checked

03/31/2015
41,030 mi
Maintenance inspection completed
Ignition coil(s) replaced
Spark plug(s) replaced

05/06/2015
Dealer Inventory
Vehicle offered for sale

Defiantly looks like new owner bought it, something was bad, sold it.. But, Second owner was taking car to mazda every 3-5k mi for service, all that on Carfax, then an 8k mi gap and he sold it.. Or am i just being paranoid? Its only about an hour away, 50mi. I don't really think its worth going to look at..

ZoomEricZoom

I don't really understand why the Spark Plugs were changed with-in about a month of each other.

SupersonicDonut

I found another 09, with like 50k on it. Got the dealer to do the comp test..
here it is, well what they sent me.

Think it looks good? 3 hrs away I driving up there today... maybe, those numbers look suspect, why the extra decimals and 0s. is this paranoia again?


Edit: and it's auto... I didn't really want and auto but the more I think it over the less I think it would kill me to have an auto. My every day car has always been auto.. so MT would be a transition... I don't want to start any bashing or talking down (since it's against the rules :p) but are there any drawback besides the carbon building being slightly more of an issue in the autos. Is there anyway to know/test if it is suffering from this? I haven't driven it yet but if today goes good I will make it.



Edit: An after thought, that paper was what the sales associate typed up because there was a line at the scan/fax machine. I saw the actual printout the service dept had from the test. If anyone wondered.

SupersonicDonut

Update.... it -should- be mine. Within the next hour I will know.

:D. Pics will follow if the purchase is done

Edit: I got it... post pictures in the morning barely getting in and I'm so tired... 220 miles, and still have a quarter tank!

I smiled like a kid with candy all the way home.

gwilliams6

Compression numbers are ok, if the car was at or near sea-level when tested. Congrats ! get some rest.