chefferoni

Hello all, longtime rotorhead and (somewhat) recent Rx-8 owner here. Mine is a 2011 manual GT which I picked up about a year ago from a forum member here. I just got her back from the dealer recently after having a new reman engine put in under the SSP77 rotary core warranty.

So I've been thinking...is it possible my Rx-8 is (certainly one of, but perhaps) THE last Rx-8 to ever qualify for an engine replacement under warranty from Mazda? Hear me out here. I know that my 8 was one of the last few ever sold on the West Coast (purchased end of 2011 in California). The SSP77 warranty extension is 8 years/100k miles. When I brought mine in for what I suspected was coolant seepage into a rotor chamber, I was at 92k miles and less than 2 weeks shy of 8 years since date of purchase.

Now according to Mazda's figures, there were only 93 Rx-8s sold in the US for 2012, the last model year. Most of these were sold Jan-Apr 2012, with the last one in June 2012. The dealership told me (and this is a pretty large flagship dealer) they hadn't had to do one of these in a while. In fact, initially when suggesting a rebuild, my service tech wasn't even aware that SSP77 was still a thing. Now just some speculation, but what is the probability of those last 100 or so Rx-8s needing a new engine within the next few months? Or in other words, what percentage of those last Rx-8s haven't already gone kaboom in the intervening 8 years? And of those that haven't, how likely are they to be in the hands of someone who knows about SSP77? I seem to be of the opinion that by now, unless the owner is a forum member here and/or well-informed, or the owner happens to still service it at a dealer AND the dealer is on top of their game, that the odds are rather low.

Anyhow, this is mostly inconsequential trivia, but given that we're fast approaching decade's end, I've been in a reminiscing mood. I've no doubt the rotary community will burn brappy and bright for years to come, but in some ways, I can't help but feel that, unless Mazda comes through and outs another pure rotary engine (I'm discounting rotary range extenders here), there is at least some sentimental value in the last Rx car to benefit from direct manufacturer support. Almost like an end of the era kind of thing. As one who appreciates these engines, I think it'd be really cool to find that Rx-8 if mine isn't it, and maybe for the community too. So if there's someone on here who has had/will have an SSP77 after mine, I'd very much love to find out who you are. I hoped to post this under general Rx-8 Discussion for more traffic, but I believe I lack privileges, so here it is .

Thank y'alls for reading! And of course, here are some pictures of mine:




With this charm my apex seals will never die

UnknownJinX

Without a warranty, it just means you gotta pay for a reman and the labour associated. The parts will keep being manufactured as long as there is a demand for it.

And I mean there were RX-8s sold in other regions, like Canada and Japan. If you want to know, the last RX-8s ever produced are the Spirit Rs, which were only sold in Japan and some leaked to other RHD countries. Not really much is known about hat's happening with them.

Your GT looks really clean, actually. Looks like the same configuration as mine with the navigation, and I see that you got yourself some R3 wheels.

mazdaverx7

iTrader: (6)

Your car could very well be one of the last here in the U.S. Theres no really way of knowing without contacting Mazda once the campaign is closed for good. They may be able to shed some insight on your car and if there were any more after yours. It might take finding right person to find and release that information but I'm sure it's on record at Mazda. Beautiful S2 by the way!

chefferoni

Ahh yes, I'd completely forgotten they made Spirit Rs for Rx-8s too.

Thanks man! And yes, I definitely lucked out with the R3 wheels - previous owner managed to source them somehow and I was the benfacted inheritor

wannawankel

How many miles and what were the details of why your late model Series 2 needed a new engine?

delhi

I think the 2011 RX-8 R3 LM20 might be the last one that was brought into MNAO. But it's a one-offish car.

40th8Jake

good question!I would like to know also if you could get that info. It seems as though some people think a series II motor is bullet-proof compared to the series I. There were some quality reliability upgrades, but like Team says its usually up to the one behind the wheel...

DannyR3

it's just a regular R3 with some decals.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

From ZOOM-ZOOM to SOON-SOON (give me a new engine)

when you consider what was invested in the S2 engine it’s no wonder the 16x was canned. So many bad decisions that imo were worse than the S1. Not exactly confidence inspiring. Which it’s always easy to sit in the sideline and criticize, but come on. Certain S2 engine parts are more likely to become an availability issue due to the low numbers.

Brettus

iTrader: (2)

fixed

chefferoni

Mileage at the time I brought it in was 92128 miles on original engine. Compression was excellent actually - dealership said it was the best compression they'd seen in any Rx-8 needing a rebuild lol Normalized, those numbers are approximately 8.2 / 8.1 / 7.9 for Rotor 1, and 8.0 / 8.3 / 8.1 for Rotor 2. For others following, normalized scores below 6.9 are generally considered failing. Test was conducted in the Bay Area, so for all intents and purposes sea level.
Circa 88k miles, started noticing slightly difficult starts if I hadn't driven her in a few days, and also after long highway drives. I drive up and down Interstate 5 quite frequently (basically multi-hour 4k+ RPM steady-state cruising), and this would be especially pronounced at pit stops.
Circa 89k miles, first indications of misfire at start up under conditions stated above along with P0301 code (front rotor misfire). Pulled plugs to inspect, and interestingly, rotor 1 plugs were mint, whereas rotor 2 plugs looked like they came off the Titanic. Gave nasty plugs a thorough wire brush and clean and reinstalled. Notably, all plugs and wires were changed at ~82k miles. Car has BHR coils.
Circa 90k miles, small puffs of white smoke at start up under stated conditions. Thought I caught the musky whiff of coolant a couple times. Cue Rx-7 flashbacks, which I've only ever lost to coolant seal failure. Made mental note of coolant level.
Circa 92k miles, increased frequency of startup misfires, increasingly voluminous clouds of white smoke, gurgling noises from heater core at startup. Lost about 1 qt of coolant in 2k miles, with no visible external leaks. Did a farewell canyon run and took her in.

Dealership performed an overnight coolant pressure test after passing compression test. Sure enough, rotor 1 was gushing coolant the next day. RIP original engine.


In complete agreement with you here. For what it's worth, this 8 has been up-kept pretty fanatically. Between the previous owner and myself, it's maybe gone through 5 tanks of gas ever without premix. BHR coils were installed very early on, coils/plugs were done religiously every 30k miles or less, and oil changes pretty much every 3k miles on the dot. The engine has never been overheated. Perhaps as a reflection of that, this car has really been trouble free engine-wise up until the coolant leak. All in all, I do believe the compression results at 92k miles speak for themselves.

That being said, I do find it intriguing that my S2's point of failure was ultimately at (what I presume) a coolant seal. From what I understand, the bulk of the S2's upgrades over the S1 were in the oiling department. While I'm fairly convinced these improvements have held markedly tangible benefits in reducing metallic seal/rotor/housing wear, it seems to me that no amount of increased oiling/premixing/timely oil changes can forever stave off the eventual material degradation accrued by the (non-metallic) coolant seals' repeated exposure to extreme temperatures, heat cycles, etc.

In that sense, whereas apex/side seals often receive much of the attention in rotary reliability discussions, my gut take and anecdotal experience has been that coolant seals are in many ways the crux of the issue (especially for street-driven rotary engines where the seals' expected lifetimes are measured in years, not racing hours.) The fact that coolant seals are non-metallic makes them inherently susceptible to thermal degradation, only exacerbated by the extreme temperatures our engines run at. And whereas apex/side seal failure might be mitigated to some extent by proper lubrication and maintenance, there really isn't much you can do for your coolant seals besides avoiding overheating and keeping your coolant fresh. Beyond that it seems to be rotary RNG with the rotary gods...

DannyR3

I'm curious, what bad decisions? I think that's the first time I've ever seen anyone imply the S1 engine is better/has better parts than the S2. Certainly the massive improvement to reliability proves they made the right changes.

CaymanRotary

The series 2 had many improvements that help with reliability. Extra oil injection port for the OMP was notable due to getting full coverage for the Apex seal. Series 1 RX8 had issues covering the middle part of the Apex seal and tear downs show increased wear in those areas. That being said, the series 1 is a better car to own. It’s far cheaper, parts are more widely available, it’s faster and it looks better. Series 2 RX8s May be more reliable but something I’m just not interested in. Even with the series 2 improvements it’s still a rotary and still has the same risk associated.

DannyR3

disagree on a few points. I owned an '07 and now have an R3 and it's better in literally every way. The seats, engine (obviously), gearbox, suspension, piano black interior, stock wheels, bodykit (granted, non R3 S2 are hideous) and the big one.... taillights. Handling stock for stock is much better on the Bilsteins. Straight line speed is hideous on both gens so doesn't matter much.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

"Massive improvement in reliability" remains to be proven. S2s need new engines just like S1's, only Mazda knows if there is a statistically significant improvement over the entire fleet.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

My comment was specifically regarding the S2 engine. Which plenty were warranty replaced with lower than expected mileage. An S2 engine is no more durable than an S1; certainly less durable than a properly modified rebuilt S1, but believe whatever you want.

UnknownJinX

If you are just talking about 0~100km/h, I believe I have read that S1 is faster, but you have to understand why. S2 has a more aggressive differential(4.78 versus 4.44 of S1), so you need to upshift to 3rd to get to that speed, and shifting naturally takes a little time, but that also means that 2nd gear acceleration will be better on the S2. So while it's "slower", it's better when you actually drive it.

And if you care about 0~60 that much, RX-8 is the wrong car. Heck a turbocharged/electric econobox can beat an RX-8 off the line up to maybe 40 mph as the peak torque comes out a lot earlier.

Aesthetics is always subjective. I personally much prefer S2, as S1 is way too round for my liking. I still like sharper cars. I used to very much like Challengers and while I can't see myself driving one now, I still like the look of one.

DannyR3

yeah, that's not true. Factory S1 vs factory S2 engines at least. A guy building 1 engine at a time will (hopefully) do a better and more thorough job than a factory pumping out dozens a day. Yes, there have been S2 engines with failures, but not to the extent of the S1 engines failing. Especially from 04-06 cars they seemed to go fast. Read an article the other day that as much as 50% of S1 cars got at least 1 engine replaced. The S2 cars are nowhere near there. In the 11 years now the S2 has been around, it's still rare to see a failure, partly because of numbers produced, sure, but also because they're just better made. Of the ones that failed, there's a number of them that failed due to user error, and outside influences, like a bad cat, not keeping up with ignition maintenance, etc. Having said that however, none of my S1 and S2 cars have had low compression. Maybe luck, maybe I did the right kind of driving/maintenance, who knows.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Hope and anecdotes are not types of evidence. Unless you have actual numbers on replacements, don't even bother. Feel free to enjoy your S2, nobody is taking that away.

chefferoni

Mileage at the time I brought it in was 92128 miles on original engine. Compression was excellent actually - dealership said it was the best compression they'd seen in any Rx-8 needing a rebuild lolNormalized, those numbers are approximately 8.2 / 8.1 / 7.9 for Rotor 1, and 8.0 / 8.3 / 8.1 for Rotor 2. For others following, normalized scores below 6.9 are generally considered failing. Test was conducted in the Bay Area, so for all intents and purposes sea level.
Circa 88k miles, started noticing slightly difficult starts if I hadn't driven her in a few days, and also after long highway drives. I drive up and down Interstate 5 quite frequently (basically multi-hour 4k+ RPM steady-state cruising), and this would be especially pronounced at pit stops.
Circa 89k miles, first indications of misfire at start up under conditions stated above along with P0301 code (front rotor misfire). Pulled plugs to inspect, and interestingly, rotor 1 plugs were mint, whereas rotor 2 plugs looked like they came off the Titanic. Gave nasty plugs a thorough wire brush and clean and reinstalled. Notably, all plugs and wires were changed at ~82k miles. Car has BHR coils.
Circa 90k miles, small puffs of white smoke at start up under stated conditions. Thought I caught the musky whiff of coolant a couple times. Cue Rx-7 flashbacks, which I've only ever lost to coolant seal failure. Made mental note of coolant level.
Circa 92k miles, increased frequency of startup misfires, increasingly voluminous clouds of white smoke, gurgling noises from heater core at startup. Lost about 1 qt of coolant in 2k miles, with no visible external leaks. Did a farewell canyon run and took her in.

Dealership performed an overnight coolant pressure test after passing compression test. Sure enough, rotor 1 was gushing coolant the next day. RIP original engine.


In complete agreement with you here. For what it's worth, this 8 has been up-kept pretty fanatically. Between the previous owner and myself, it's maybe gone through 5 tanks of gas ever without premix. BHR coils were installed very early on, wires/plugs were done religiously every 30k miles or less, and oil changes pretty much every 3k miles on the dot. The engine has never been overheated. Perhaps as a reflection of that, this car has really been trouble free engine-wise up until the coolant leak. All in all, I do believe the compression results at 92k miles speak for themselves.

That being said, I do find it intriguing that my S2's point of failure was ultimately at (what I presume) a coolant seal. As has been reiterated here, the bulk of the S2's engine upgrades over the S1 were in the oiling department. While I'm fairly convinced these improvements have held markedly tangible benefits in reducing metallic seal/rotor/housing wear, it seems to me that no amount of increased oiling/premixing/timely oil changes can forever stave off the eventual material degradation accrued by the (non-metallic) coolant seals' repeated exposure to extreme temperatures, heat cycles, etc.

In that sense, whereas apex/side seals often receive much of the attention in rotary reliability discussions, my gut take and anecdotal experience has been that coolant seals are in many ways the crux of the issue (especially for street-driven rotary engines where the seals' expected lifetimes are measured in years, not racing hours.) The fact that coolant seals are non-metallic makes them inherently susceptible to thermal degradation, only exacerbated by the extreme temperatures our engines run at. And whereas apex/side seal failure might be mitigated to some extent by proper lubrication and maintenance, there really isn't much you can do for your coolant seals besides avoiding overheating and keeping your coolant fresh. Beyond that it seems to be rotary RNG with the rotary gods...

chefferoni

As a non-R3 owner, I fully concur. The right wheels and a lower, while not perfect, immensely reduces the "catfishiness" of the standard S2s.

UnknownJinX

S2 actually improved cooling as well, with a better water pump that's less prone to cavitation and a thicker radiator.

Cooling has always been a bit tricky on rotary engines, though. Rear rotor parts usually retain more heat due to the way coolant cycles in a rotary engine. That said, I don't think coolant seals have been a consistent issue around here unless you severely overheated your car.

I mean, I prefer the R3 front bumper, but if you are lucky, you could just pull one off in a junkyard and put it on your Sport/GT. Same with the side skirts.

Otherwise, I really like the sunroof on my GT as I usually use it as a daily driver so I don't care if it's heavier.

TeamRX8

iTrader: (25)

smoking marketing bovine fecal matter is not good for your health or wallet

some of you can’t handle the truth, let alone recognize it.