Electrical failure while driving, Car won't start
12-19-2023, 01:44 PM
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Electrical failure while driving, Car won't start
Hello everybody,
the electrical gremlins have waged an all-out war against me, and they hit heavy.
The car is a series 1 40th anniversary edition A/T purchased in Georgia at ~45k miles with strong compression, has a RRP COF adapter and burns Pennzoil marine 2-stroke and full synthetic engine oil, and is in Virginia where it is garage kept.
Previously the car would occasionally have a hard time starting and would sometimes crank for over a minute before coming to life, but then the next start up would start up off the first to third crank, it would sometimes be ungodly sluggish from a stop and other times run fine, and previously before i put it in the garage started occasionally stalling at a stop and I had to feather the accelerator to keep the car alive in stop and go traffic, it also at one point threw a check engine light for the crank position sensor and was sporadic, I replaced the sensor and the car ran fine again for a while, whenever it would start acting up I could reflash the car and then it'd run perfectly for a period of time but would start to degrade in performance and would start acting up again over the course of 2 weeks to a month, I had considered maybe the ecu was going bad due to the culmination of issues that individually did not point to the ecu but all could have been caused by a failing ecu, however I disregarded that possibility due to the low chance of that being the case. Eventually the alternator went out on me while driving so I suspected that the failing alternator was the cause of all my problems, so I upgraded the electrical system while I was at it.
these modifications were performed at ~52k miles, the electrical related modifications are:
-BHR coil set
-Aftermarket Alpine double din and reverse camera
-Anti-Gravity lithium-ion battery
-Upgraded 250A alternator and cabling
-Upgraded starter
-M/T gage cluster, with Versatuner reflash
The car ran better but the issues were not really fixed just a lot less noticeable, again pointing towards the ecu still being the problem however i was going out of town soon and have other cars that also needed work at the time, so I put it off further troubleshooting for the time being since it now had a band-aid on it. where it sat in the garage for about 3 months while I was out of state.
When I got back, I took the car out for a drive to move the fluids around since a I felt bad about neglecting it while driving the car, it ran fine for about 2 hours while I was out in town, on my way back home merging onto the freeway. the car suddenly shut off while accelerating, the dash lights flickered as the car slowed down and when I pulled over to the side of the road and shut the car off, I could no longer turn it back on. the car was placed on a flatbed and towed back home, currently the car is able to be turned to the on position again using the physical key however the key fob is not recognized by the car, the abs pump module is currently disconnected due to when it is plugged in it automatically kicks on the abs pump with the car off; and does not turn off. the starter solenoid will click when the car is taken to run but the car will not crank. the immobilizer is showing " the key ID number data cannot be read or key ID registration error" and there are two check engine lights.
U0100 lost communication with the PCM
U0121 lost communication with the ABS control module
both codes are permeant even with the ABS control module plugged in and running.
the wiring harness has been inspected for frayed/ charred wires, all grounds checked, relays verified with multi-meter and all fuses replaced. a couple blew during the current surge but were mostly random. both egi comp fuses were blown and when replaced the egi comp one fuse would blow when the car was turned to the on position, but now has stopped blowing. I've removed the ecu and performed a visual inspection on the entire unit, down the pins and boards and it looks pristine, however I have not electrically tested it at all. the abs module has not been touched, and the immobilizer has been visually inspected however I have not opened it up.
I'm pretty certain that at this point the ecu is toast though since its a permeant code, at first I thought it must of shorted across the board and caused a huge current surge taking out the abs pump with it before the fuse could pop (which the fuse never blew), however after inspecting it and seeing no obvious signs of current surge on the board I'm more inclined to believe the pump module is simply acting up due to the ecu being toast and it not knowing what to do now, however I'm now concerned that my immobilizer and keyless entry modules are toast too now since it's not recognizing my key and wont unlock the steering wheel even with the physical key inserted.
I'd imagine that I'd need to replace all of these, but that's where my point of contention comes from, am I good to just scour parts from Ebay to avoid paying ridiculous amounts of money for the parts from the manufacturer, considering they'll be from different vehicles, I'm assuming that I'm going to have to take it to the dealership to get it all recoded anyways to get the modules to talk to each other; does anybody have any experience with that and could give me a rough price estimate before I get it put back on a flatbed and sent to the dealership? or is there something I haven't considered yet or don't know that would solve my problem?
Much appreciated.
the electrical gremlins have waged an all-out war against me, and they hit heavy.
The car is a series 1 40th anniversary edition A/T purchased in Georgia at ~45k miles with strong compression, has a RRP COF adapter and burns Pennzoil marine 2-stroke and full synthetic engine oil, and is in Virginia where it is garage kept.
Previously the car would occasionally have a hard time starting and would sometimes crank for over a minute before coming to life, but then the next start up would start up off the first to third crank, it would sometimes be ungodly sluggish from a stop and other times run fine, and previously before i put it in the garage started occasionally stalling at a stop and I had to feather the accelerator to keep the car alive in stop and go traffic, it also at one point threw a check engine light for the crank position sensor and was sporadic, I replaced the sensor and the car ran fine again for a while, whenever it would start acting up I could reflash the car and then it'd run perfectly for a period of time but would start to degrade in performance and would start acting up again over the course of 2 weeks to a month, I had considered maybe the ecu was going bad due to the culmination of issues that individually did not point to the ecu but all could have been caused by a failing ecu, however I disregarded that possibility due to the low chance of that being the case. Eventually the alternator went out on me while driving so I suspected that the failing alternator was the cause of all my problems, so I upgraded the electrical system while I was at it.
these modifications were performed at ~52k miles, the electrical related modifications are:
-BHR coil set
-Aftermarket Alpine double din and reverse camera
-Anti-Gravity lithium-ion battery
-Upgraded 250A alternator and cabling
-Upgraded starter
-M/T gage cluster, with Versatuner reflash
The car ran better but the issues were not really fixed just a lot less noticeable, again pointing towards the ecu still being the problem however i was going out of town soon and have other cars that also needed work at the time, so I put it off further troubleshooting for the time being since it now had a band-aid on it. where it sat in the garage for about 3 months while I was out of state.
When I got back, I took the car out for a drive to move the fluids around since a I felt bad about neglecting it while driving the car, it ran fine for about 2 hours while I was out in town, on my way back home merging onto the freeway. the car suddenly shut off while accelerating, the dash lights flickered as the car slowed down and when I pulled over to the side of the road and shut the car off, I could no longer turn it back on. the car was placed on a flatbed and towed back home, currently the car is able to be turned to the on position again using the physical key however the key fob is not recognized by the car, the abs pump module is currently disconnected due to when it is plugged in it automatically kicks on the abs pump with the car off; and does not turn off. the starter solenoid will click when the car is taken to run but the car will not crank. the immobilizer is showing " the key ID number data cannot be read or key ID registration error" and there are two check engine lights.
U0100 lost communication with the PCM
U0121 lost communication with the ABS control module
both codes are permeant even with the ABS control module plugged in and running.
the wiring harness has been inspected for frayed/ charred wires, all grounds checked, relays verified with multi-meter and all fuses replaced. a couple blew during the current surge but were mostly random. both egi comp fuses were blown and when replaced the egi comp one fuse would blow when the car was turned to the on position, but now has stopped blowing. I've removed the ecu and performed a visual inspection on the entire unit, down the pins and boards and it looks pristine, however I have not electrically tested it at all. the abs module has not been touched, and the immobilizer has been visually inspected however I have not opened it up.
I'm pretty certain that at this point the ecu is toast though since its a permeant code, at first I thought it must of shorted across the board and caused a huge current surge taking out the abs pump with it before the fuse could pop (which the fuse never blew), however after inspecting it and seeing no obvious signs of current surge on the board I'm more inclined to believe the pump module is simply acting up due to the ecu being toast and it not knowing what to do now, however I'm now concerned that my immobilizer and keyless entry modules are toast too now since it's not recognizing my key and wont unlock the steering wheel even with the physical key inserted.
I'd imagine that I'd need to replace all of these, but that's where my point of contention comes from, am I good to just scour parts from Ebay to avoid paying ridiculous amounts of money for the parts from the manufacturer, considering they'll be from different vehicles, I'm assuming that I'm going to have to take it to the dealership to get it all recoded anyways to get the modules to talk to each other; does anybody have any experience with that and could give me a rough price estimate before I get it put back on a flatbed and sent to the dealership? or is there something I haven't considered yet or don't know that would solve my problem?
Much appreciated.
12-19-2023, 03:44 PM
#2
So a couple of things, not all related to the issue.
Marine TCW3 oil like that Penzoil is 100% the wrong oil to inject. It doesn't burn clean nor lubricate a rotary well. You want a JASO FC or FD rating on your 2-stroke.
The issue description sounds to me like a vacuum leak or coolant infiltration in the combustion chamber while the car is sitting. Did you eliminate those as possible causes? Did the starting issues happen primarily while cold, while hot, or any time? Was there any oil in the intake? Was there any coolant on the spark plugs? Are the spark plugs, coils and wires recent? Are there any other modifications to the car (intake, exhaust...).
On to the current issues:
- these cars can be sensitive to non-OEM alternators. Have you monitored system voltage since the new alt was put in?
- when you say the car shut off on the highway, is that electrically shut off, as in no lights no sounds, or the engine stopped producing power/restart but the cabin electricals were still usable? Did it try to start, did the starter engage?
- Yes if you buy new computers you'll need the dealer to make them play nice together. FWIW I don't think the ECU is toast, or at least it's not the root cause, although it might have lost connection with the other modules. My first stop would be that alternator, go back to a known good OEM one if you can, and make sure every grounding point in the engine bay is nice and clean.
When the immobilizer kicks in, the security light on the dash will flash rapidly. If it's not doing that, it's not the immobilizer.
Marine TCW3 oil like that Penzoil is 100% the wrong oil to inject. It doesn't burn clean nor lubricate a rotary well. You want a JASO FC or FD rating on your 2-stroke.
The issue description sounds to me like a vacuum leak or coolant infiltration in the combustion chamber while the car is sitting. Did you eliminate those as possible causes? Did the starting issues happen primarily while cold, while hot, or any time? Was there any oil in the intake? Was there any coolant on the spark plugs? Are the spark plugs, coils and wires recent? Are there any other modifications to the car (intake, exhaust...).
On to the current issues:
- these cars can be sensitive to non-OEM alternators. Have you monitored system voltage since the new alt was put in?
- when you say the car shut off on the highway, is that electrically shut off, as in no lights no sounds, or the engine stopped producing power/restart but the cabin electricals were still usable? Did it try to start, did the starter engage?
- Yes if you buy new computers you'll need the dealer to make them play nice together. FWIW I don't think the ECU is toast, or at least it's not the root cause, although it might have lost connection with the other modules. My first stop would be that alternator, go back to a known good OEM one if you can, and make sure every grounding point in the engine bay is nice and clean.
When the immobilizer kicks in, the security light on the dash will flash rapidly. If it's not doing that, it's not the immobilizer.
12-19-2023, 04:29 PM
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Really, I've read that marine oil burns pretty clean and is what I got recommended but I'll take your word for it, thanks.
As far as the alternator, yes i monitored voltage after it was installed for quite a while actually, it never gave me any problems and ran fine. and the car did completely shut off on the highway, nothing was on besides the gage cluster flickering on and off as it coasted down, but no interior lights, no radio, no engine running, no gear shifts, nothing at all. and there is absolutely no crank whatsoever, you can however here the starter solenoid click when you take it to run.
And the immobilizer does flash repeatedly uninterrupted for about a minute before it gives me the code. so, I do believe it is the immobilizer.
on a side note though, what would you think would be the cause of those intermittent long cranks, or stalling at stops/ occasional sluggish acceleration, it is very hit or miss and like I did mention if you reflash the ecu, the car runs perfectly fine for about two weeks, those are what in addition to me not being able to communicate with it at all anymore makes me think that it is at least something ecu related. unless one of the other two modules in the start-up requirements could cause those issues to happen Aswell.
thanks
As far as the alternator, yes i monitored voltage after it was installed for quite a while actually, it never gave me any problems and ran fine. and the car did completely shut off on the highway, nothing was on besides the gage cluster flickering on and off as it coasted down, but no interior lights, no radio, no engine running, no gear shifts, nothing at all. and there is absolutely no crank whatsoever, you can however here the starter solenoid click when you take it to run.
And the immobilizer does flash repeatedly uninterrupted for about a minute before it gives me the code. so, I do believe it is the immobilizer.
on a side note though, what would you think would be the cause of those intermittent long cranks, or stalling at stops/ occasional sluggish acceleration, it is very hit or miss and like I did mention if you reflash the ecu, the car runs perfectly fine for about two weeks, those are what in addition to me not being able to communicate with it at all anymore makes me think that it is at least something ecu related. unless one of the other two modules in the start-up requirements could cause those issues to happen Aswell.
thanks
12-19-2023, 08:16 PM
#4
Marine oil is meant for lower temperatures and to protect wildlife. It's clean in the sense that the exhaust is not toxic in some amounts and it doesn't polymerize at expected engine temps.
JADO FD rating is closer to snowmobile applications that run hotter and harder, like a renesis. It burns ashless, and you don't want mineral/metal ash in your catalytic converter.
The starter click typically means the solenoid has fired, so it got past the immobilizer, but there's not enough current to turn the engine... Or the engine/flywheel are jammed (which can happen!). So why not enough current? Again I would look for clean grounds and clean/snug battery cables. I know you checked them, but that's really all I can of as far as a starter that clicks but doesn't turn. I mean, that or a dead starter.
The EGI fuses blowing isn't a great sign, really no good reason for that. If they stopped blowing on their own, I worry that whatever was shorting decided to become the fusible link instead. When the BHR coils were installed, was the engine hanger removed? It's in the instructions but if not removed, with the old style BHR coils, the coil 1 harness can rub and short on the hanger, leading to this kind of stuff. Depending on which wire shorts, you get different behaviors.
My othet thought is that reflash for a manual gauge cluster... Can you go back to stock?
JADO FD rating is closer to snowmobile applications that run hotter and harder, like a renesis. It burns ashless, and you don't want mineral/metal ash in your catalytic converter.
The starter click typically means the solenoid has fired, so it got past the immobilizer, but there's not enough current to turn the engine... Or the engine/flywheel are jammed (which can happen!). So why not enough current? Again I would look for clean grounds and clean/snug battery cables. I know you checked them, but that's really all I can of as far as a starter that clicks but doesn't turn. I mean, that or a dead starter.
The EGI fuses blowing isn't a great sign, really no good reason for that. If they stopped blowing on their own, I worry that whatever was shorting decided to become the fusible link instead. When the BHR coils were installed, was the engine hanger removed? It's in the instructions but if not removed, with the old style BHR coils, the coil 1 harness can rub and short on the hanger, leading to this kind of stuff. Depending on which wire shorts, you get different behaviors.
My othet thought is that reflash for a manual gauge cluster... Can you go back to stock?
Last edited by Loki; 12-19-2023 at 08:19 PM.
12-19-2023, 09:15 PM
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Marine oil is meant for lower temperatures and to protect wildlife. It's clean in the sense that the exhaust is not toxic in some amounts and it doesn't polymerize at expected engine temps.
JADO FD rating is closer to snowmobile applications that run hotter and harder, like a renesis. It burns ashless, and you don't want mineral/metal ash in your catalytic converter.
The starter click typically means the solenoid has fired, so it got past the immobilizer, but there's not enough current to turn the engine... Or the engine/flywheel are jammed (which can happen!). So why not enough current? Again I would look for clean grounds and clean/snug battery cables. I know you checked them, but that's really all I can of as far as a starter that clicks but doesn't turn. I mean, that or a dead starter.
The EGI fuses blowing isn't a great sign, really no good reason for that. If they stopped blowing on their own, I worry that whatever was shorting decided to become the fusible link instead. When the BHR coils were installed, was the engine hanger removed? It's in the instructions but if not removed, with the old style BHR coils, the coil 1 harness can rub and short on the hanger, leading to this kind of stuff. Depending on which wire shorts, you get different behaviors.
My othet thought is that reflash for a manual gauge cluster... Can you go back to stock?
JADO FD rating is closer to snowmobile applications that run hotter and harder, like a renesis. It burns ashless, and you don't want mineral/metal ash in your catalytic converter.
The starter click typically means the solenoid has fired, so it got past the immobilizer, but there's not enough current to turn the engine... Or the engine/flywheel are jammed (which can happen!). So why not enough current? Again I would look for clean grounds and clean/snug battery cables. I know you checked them, but that's really all I can of as far as a starter that clicks but doesn't turn. I mean, that or a dead starter.
The EGI fuses blowing isn't a great sign, really no good reason for that. If they stopped blowing on their own, I worry that whatever was shorting decided to become the fusible link instead. When the BHR coils were installed, was the engine hanger removed? It's in the instructions but if not removed, with the old style BHR coils, the coil 1 harness can rub and short on the hanger, leading to this kind of stuff. Depending on which wire shorts, you get different behaviors.
My othet thought is that reflash for a manual gauge cluster... Can you go back to stock?
I'll definitely go over those grounds again just to make sure. but I did even clean out the threads the for the bolts while I'm at it. FWIW I could've missed one and it doesn't hurt when the car already isn't running. :L
As far as the BHR coil packs are concerned, they're the updated version meant to work with the factory bracket, so just a simple swap really, no modifications required; pretty nice actually.
I also did consider the possibility of the starter being toast or the flywheel somehow being stuck. I'll take a look at it on Thursday and post what I find out. And the egi fuses no longer blowing is also pretty concerning to me, it's not that I just kept putting in fuses till it stopped blowing though. it's more like the battery drained flat and when I put it back on the tender and swapped out all the fuses and relays, I noticed those fuses were no longer blowing. still obviously doesn't remove the possibility of have a nice complementary fuse delete kit installed somewhere though.
I do still have the old gage cluster that I could reinstall. I definitely could see that being an issue if it was damaged during the current surge. Worth a shot I suppose.
I'll post whatever updates I come across and document them in case someone else ends up having this weird electrical failure.
Thanks
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