CbyDesign

I'm sure I'm not the first to post this question, but I'm sure I'm super special and important so you'll want to answer me. I currently have an 88 Mustang V8. It's fun as hell, but it's a turd. I have been interested in rotaries since I laid eyes on an FD, but that's way out of my price range.

Wherein lies the problem. My turd will fetch at best $2500, and I have about $1500 in parts not on the car yet. That's enough to get me a 2004 with some miles on it. But I am tired of turds, and I want something I can take to cruise-ins or cars and coffee without wanting to distance myself from the car. More specifically, I want an ABM R3.

I've never driven an RX-8 or any rotary for that matter. I can't be serious about buying anything till I sell the mustang and save a bit. But I don't want to do all that if the car isn't my thing in the end. I also enjoy autocross, but the mustang is totally outclassed. The RX-8, while not a popular Nationals car, is at least going to be somewhat competitive locally. Probably not the best place for an objective opinion, but any advice?

CaymanRotary

If you don’t have the cash for it, don’t buy it. You will be better off with a newer Mustang. Still best bang for your buck especially for autocross. Parts and mods for this car are pricey, but it’s all worth it if you like this car because nothing beats the fun factor for the price.

A good R3 is close to $10k. Mods maybe another $3k to $8k. Depends how crazy you want to get.

Loki

iTrader: (1)

Don't buy a cheap rotary. It will cost you more than you think. Yoi are buying previous owner mistakes

What happens if you need a new engine? Can you swing $4k in replacement costs?

There was a time RX8s cleaned up at nationals. Depends on class. But it's still a 15 year old chassis.

CbyDesign

Yeah, obviously I need to go through all the steps to get a good rotary with good compression and good maintenance history. About 10k. I know it's not a 1:1 replacement on cost. Especially maintenance. I'll never get to the point of having the money if I keep throwing it at my mustang where I will get no return on it. If I don't have the money, don't buy it is really not getting my point though. I know it's not an immediate fulfilment. Am I going to be disappointed when I save for a not primary driver car that ends up being lackluster? Anyone wanna let me drive their 8? I'll be gentle.

It's supposed to be my fun car. It would be a 3rd car for us, so if the engine goes, it's not an immediate need to get it replaced if I need a minute. I don't plan on a lot of extra parts for it. Like you said, aftermarket parts can be a bit expensive for these and it seems like not a lot of bang for the buck.

I'm clearly ok with having a car that has issues from time to time (i.e. Foxbody mustang) so I'm not scared of having to mess with it. That's the most fun of it all for me. I think I'm drawn to pain in the *** cars.

CaymanRotary

In that case take the leap. We’re happy to help if you need anything. Just want to make sure you know what you are getting yourself into. This won’t make Mustang power but this car is way more fun in the corners. Just depends what you want. If you ever visit Grand Cayman I’ll let you drive my 6 speed.

CbyDesign

I actually owned a 95 miata before the Mustang, so I've driven a car with little power (and lightweight in that case). Actually, if you look at the numbers, the R3 has more hp on paper, just not near the same torque. Weight is comparable as well. I've been mulling this over for awhile, looking at those sorts of things, too. One thing I will probably miss about the mustang is the V8 noises. From what I understand, there are some fun noises that come out of rotaries, too.

CaymanRotary

Nothing else out there sounds like it. It’s loud but not obnoxious. Just sounds perfect to me.

CbyDesign

Anyone use something like this for premixing?
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Funnel-K...t_rid=44926213

Seems like it would be rather convenient.

CaymanRotary

I just use the rotary bum kit.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/importc...e-starter-kit/

CbyDesign

Yeah, I've seen a lot of people use that. Wouldn't it be easier to measure it if you could just squeeze it into the other compartment, then poor it without having to check every time you dip? Maybe I'm just crazy and it's not worth the trouble, but you are already moving the oil around between bottles.

CaymanRotary

It would work fine for that. I used to just dump it straight in from the oil bottle when I first started to premix haha. However is easier for you to add premix I guess.

BigCajun

iTrader: (1)

I buy Lucas 2 stroke semi-syn. qts.
Just dump it out of the bottle, has the measures on the side.
After you do it a few times you can get it pretty close every time.

furansu

R3's rarely come up for sale, let alone for less than 6k, you should expect it to need a rebuild at that price as well. Series 1 cars can be had for 4-6k but again, likely close to needing a rebuild. A well sorted Series 1 with a healthy engine (and evidence to support it) will run 6-8k. A well sorted S2 will run 8-10k. A well sorted S2 R3 will likely run 10-15k depending upon the area and seller. I believe R3's are slightly overpriced, but they are fairly rare and markets set themselves.

Reman engines from Mazda are 2800-4800 (usually somewhere in the middle) and you can expect to pay 2500-4500 for the install depending upon shop/dealer, maybe more if other stuff needs service/replacing while they are in there. Add more if you intend to have the motor opened up for machining.

Sounds a bit like you may be financially unprepared for owning a rotary, they are not cheap to maintain and the less you spend to buy one means the more you will spend owning it. I don't mean that as an offense, it is just the description you offered of your current car situation reminds me of where I was at 17, shortly before buying my first rotary, I was already very capable in repair and engine work but it still made a precarious financial situation all the more complicated.

I suggest getting a reliable sporty car to satisfy your car interest for now and once better settled, pick up a rotary as a 2nd car to be your project.

Consider:
Honda Civic Si
Acura RSX Type-S
Acura TSX
Mazda Miata
Ford Mustang GT New Edge/S197
Ford Mustang Ecoboost S550 (If you can do a car payment and really want something that will be quick, cheap to operate, capable, stylish, and reliable)

CbyDesign

Thanks for your input. I appreciate your understanding of the market and your concern for my financial status. I did actually share that I am aware I can not buy an R3 for any less than $8k at best. Though looking at the market, there are some out there, but with the expectation of needing to rebuild a motor before long. This would, in fact, be an "extra" car that I would not be relying on for transportation if it was in need of service. I am aware that it will be more expensive to maintain, but that is not as much my concern as the initial cost to purchase it. Which is why I said I need to save and it will not be instant gratification (even if I desire it!) My question was is this car worth it? Am I going to miss the grunt and muscle of my approximately 200 hp mustang that probably handles like crap comparatively? Do you have any thoughts on that, as you seem to have kept with the rotary despite financial distress?

furansu

Okay, the case makes more sense if you have a secure primary means of transit. For some of us RX-8's are very much worth it. For many, they aren't, which I believe fueled their low-sales, frequent turn-over and generally negative market opinion.

Maybe find a nice example of an RX-8 at a dealership and take it for a test drive -- see if you can drive an NC Miata afterward so that you have a comparison of the two styles (short wheelbase piston roadster versus the long wheelbase rotary 2+2). The chassis are very similar with the NC being derived from the FE/SE3P root platform, sharing many parts.

If you were to keep your fox body and improve it, improve meaning add power and handling capability to have fun in SCCA-CAM, I'd assume it'd need roughly the following:
$2,800 - Heads, full exhaust & tune
$4,000 - Maximum Motorsports Grip in a Box
$1,200 - Wheels and tires
$500 - Wear items like bearings and brakes
$8,500 Rough total

RX-8 ownership pricing can vary widely based upon the engine health and initial purchase price. Parts are more expensive compared to the Mustang platform, but you do start with a more advanced chassis
$4,000 - Purchase price of a running RX-8 with 80k miles and unknown compression (Assumed 20k miles of life left on the conservative side) - you can find non-running RX-8's for $500-1500.
$3,800 - Mazda reman at a median market price
$3,500 - Engine replacement by independent shop, with assumed additional services while there
$350 - Clutch
$180 - Coils, plugs, and wires
$150 - Coolant hoses
$100 - Coolant bottle
$180 - Oil injection lines
$120 - Fuel injector cleaning/testing
$250 - Radiator (assuming all aluminum upgrade over factory plastic)
$200 - Oil, coolant, trans, diff, brake/clutch fluids
$1,000 - Shocks/springs/top hats
$1,200 - Wheels and tires
$800 - Wear items like bearings and brakes
$15,830 Rough total

I made a lot of assumptions on both cars for needs and costs, so take it all as just a loose reference with a huge window of variance. The parts I called out for the RX-8 are those I commonly see as needed during engine replacements or preparation for autoX/HPDE. How mechanically inclined are you? Do you have the tools, experience and a suitable place where you can perform an engine swap, or would you have to farm it out to a shop when the time comes?

I'm about 6,000$ into my low-buck RX-8, with most of those items on that list done, though I am running standard high-performance street tires on OE wheels, mostly stock Sport suspension, and all work performed in-house.

CbyDesign

Thanks for that! I think you pretty well summed up what I expect for costs on getting my Mustang up to a more competitive level. I'm hoping to find a dealer nearby with an RX8 at some point, but there don't seem to be a lot of S2 in the area. From what I understand, the front suspension changed a lot between the two?

That's also about what I would have guessed for the 8, but some different thoughts. I guess I didn't realize the oil injection lines are a common issue.

I pretty mechanically inclined. While I have not performed an engine swap, I'd try to take it on, with a lot of caution, but I am pretty limited on garage space. I would likely have to farm the process out.

I'd like to keep the car pretty stock to run in SCCA CS, but there are a lot of ways to spend money even so!

furansu

S2's have different front lower control arms, a different rear suspension setup that I believe is control arms and shock design, but could expand as far as sheet metal changes to the shock perches. The subframes and most of the rear linkages are the same part numbers between S1 and S2. Big deal differences for the S2 are the aforementioned suspension geometry, drastic changes in the oiling system and some hard parts of the motor, appearance changes, interior refinements, and a different communication standard for the electrical system that is not interchangeable between S1 and S2. Staying in CS will certainly save you a couple thousand dollars, as well as any work you can do yourself.

CbyDesign

Took a drive in a 2006 Shinka this weekend. It has 80k miles, 40k on the 2nd engine. New owner(s) on the second engine. Mostly southern car, but spent the last year/10k miles in the Chicago area. Ran well. Hummed really nicely, though I don't know what I'm supposed to expect. Cracked dash, fogged headlights, cracked side marker, interior is nice otherwise. Pioneer head unit. Heated seats worked, AC and heat worked. Sunroof worked. Sub and amp in the trunk I didn't care for. I didn't actually try to play anything on the radio. Card key is cracked, forgot to ask if he had 1 or 2 keys. No, I don't have compression numbers, I just wanted to get behind the wheel of one and see what it's all about.

DEALER is asking $6400. Does this line up with the market? I feel like it might be on the high end, but as a buyer, it always is.

CaymanRotary

$6400 sounds a bit high but if compression numbers come back good you could go $5500 as long as the rest of the car is in good working order. Always get a compression test done before buying.

CbyDesign

I've been looking at what's out there, a lot, and I see what seems like 50% of all RX-8s seem to be 2004s. Is there a reason for this? Also, that brings up my thoughts as far as best year(s)/series. Any to specifically avoid?

CbyDesign

Looking at a 2005 Shinka with 65k miles just about 10 mins from my house. What special do I need to consider for 2005? I know there is a list on the start here thread, so let me just put that here if you haven't looked in awhile. And compression.

[QUOTE](in no particular order)
- Engine ever replaced [Mazda]
- - Mileage on current engine [Mazda]
- Engine Compression
- Catalytic converter replaced
- Mileage of last coil change
- - Has it ever had one or more coils fail on it with the current cat?
- Mileage of last plug change
- Mileage of last plug wire change
- Has it ever been flooded? (cat life remaining info)
- Tail lights ever replaced? [2004, 2005]
- - If not, have the seals ever been replaced, or the tailights modified to drain water?
- Oil consumption (ask in how many miles between adding a quart or half a quart, and have them tell you which it was))
- MSP 13 performed by a dealer, and date / mileage [Mazda2004, 2005]
- Gas mileage typically seen
- Number of miles typically on the trip odometer when the low gas light comes on
(yes, ask both gas mileage questions)
- Starter replaced to the upgraded version [2004, 2005]
- Temperature control **** ever replaced or repaired [2004, 2005]
- Clutch pedal assembly ever replaced, re-welded, or re-inforced
- Cranking time before starting when cold
- Cranking time before starting when hot[/QUOTE]

RX0004

Be aware that the Renesis platform is very limited with regards to performance upgrades that will gain you any substantial power increases.

Forced induction is an option, but reading the threads on here it's pretty mixed at how successful that really is with the Renesis. Usually it's a case of plenty time and money being spent, for a moderate increase in performance, whilst reducing reliability and increasing the owners heartache....

As good as the car handles in stock form, the limitation for many is the ability to improve engine performance without doing some type of engine swap. Hence why many owners cut their losses, and move on to something else.

CbyDesign

Are you sure you posted in the right place? It is way off topic.

RX0004

How is it off topic?

You say you don't want another turd..... really desire an FD... but are thinking of buying an RX8?

Are you aware of the limitations of an RX8, given you've driven just one? I assumed you are on a forum asking for advice, because you don't actually have much practical knowledge or experience?

Sorry, I thought I was being somewhat helpful. Just ignore my post....

CbyDesign

I think I'm just misunderstanding where you're coming from and you are misunderstanding what I'm looking for. I need a car I can shove my kids into the back seat. I like to autocross, so something that handles well. I'm not looking to make a bunch of modifications. I want a car that I can have fun with and spend some time taking care of. I've been doing what I can to read up on this site. Lots of information on here, though some of the newbie stickies are dated and incorrect based on more recent data.

I was surprised to see your response when the most recent post I wrote about what to look for from a 2005 model year, not how to get more power out of the car. If you have some more info on any extra care to take with a 2005 or what to avoid, please share.