Engine vibrate almost shut down when it's in LOW Rpm
01-24-2010, 07:31 PM
#27
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That sounds normal.
When in D or R, the engine is spinning the input shaft, which is spinning the transmission fluid inside the torque converter, and the fluid spins the output 'vanes' (I don't know the technical terms inside an automatic transmission), which spins whatever gear you are in, down the driveshaft to the rear diff to the axles. Holding the car stopped when in D or R, the unput shaft vanes are spinning the fluid but the fluid can't spin the output vanes, due to the brakes holding them in check (since they are solidly engaged to the rear axle). This is an amount of stress on everything that is accepted by the industry. Shifting to N disconnects the output vanes from the rear axle, as no gear is engaged, so the fluid spins the vanes freely, no stress there.
Hope this makes sense.
When in D or R, the engine is spinning the input shaft, which is spinning the transmission fluid inside the torque converter, and the fluid spins the output 'vanes' (I don't know the technical terms inside an automatic transmission), which spins whatever gear you are in, down the driveshaft to the rear diff to the axles. Holding the car stopped when in D or R, the unput shaft vanes are spinning the fluid but the fluid can't spin the output vanes, due to the brakes holding them in check (since they are solidly engaged to the rear axle). This is an amount of stress on everything that is accepted by the industry. Shifting to N disconnects the output vanes from the rear axle, as no gear is engaged, so the fluid spins the vanes freely, no stress there.
Hope this makes sense.
and i must ask...do you/have you ever worked at a dealership/independent shop?
01-24-2010, 07:39 PM
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I just love knowing things. I researched the 8 for 2 years before deciding to buy it, and I watch iSpy when I am connected, so I see threads as people post them, the issues they have, the suggestions given, the solutions found, and best practices. This stuff all sticks in my head. I am an analyst for work, so examining facts to find a base cause is something I'm good at.
When I find something I don't understand, I go looking for an answer, like ATs
Edit:
It seems that most people don't "follow the path" enough for identifying what affects what, and what things are related. Like there have been ~5 threads over the past few days on people flooding, any most of them mention plugs, but aren't connecting the fact that a plug doesn't work if it isn't getting a charge from the coil, a coil doesn't work if it isn't getting power from the alternator, etc... Or the other direction, that if the plug isn't parking, then you are dumping fuel in that isn't igniting, causing a flood.
Part of this is that they don't know that these components exist, but part of it is just not following the path forwards and backwards through a system. It's natural for me, my Dad is a senior engineer with Northop Gruman, ex-pilot, etc... and from a 'wee kid', pounded logic and analysis into us. Never gave us the answer, only the methods we should use to figure out the answer ourselves. It's ingrained in me.
Last edited by RIWWP; 01-24-2010 at 07:47 PM.
01-24-2010, 08:17 PM
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oh ok, thats what i thought
i wasnt refering to what others do, because i have also noticed everyone struggling lately and it all seems to be for the same thing
i dont doubt your diag abilities or how you got them
but....
your talk of what and how a shop does things is slightly jaded because you have only been on the customers side
now im not going to go into any long speach or anything, nore do i wish to start a huge thread jack **** fight
but you do realize there is such a thing as a coil stress test thats built into dealers diagnostic tools as well as a compression tester and a power balance test that they perform, tools that nobody else has, including snap-on's modis tool
and btw there is no stress in an automatic transmission when in drive and holding the brake
the vss, tps, and engine rpm signals are sent to the pcm which then sends the signal to the trans servos and the oil pump to stop pushing fluid in the torque converter, once the signal changes in turns the pump back on, it reapplys pressure and engages the hydraulic clutches in the transmission to create the needed gear
pressure problems occure when the car is transbraked, neutral dropped, low on fluid, overheated, or abused
i wasnt refering to what others do, because i have also noticed everyone struggling lately and it all seems to be for the same thing
i dont doubt your diag abilities or how you got them
but....
your talk of what and how a shop does things is slightly jaded because you have only been on the customers side
now im not going to go into any long speach or anything, nore do i wish to start a huge thread jack **** fight
but you do realize there is such a thing as a coil stress test thats built into dealers diagnostic tools as well as a compression tester and a power balance test that they perform, tools that nobody else has, including snap-on's modis tool
and btw there is no stress in an automatic transmission when in drive and holding the brake
the vss, tps, and engine rpm signals are sent to the pcm which then sends the signal to the trans servos and the oil pump to stop pushing fluid in the torque converter, once the signal changes in turns the pump back on, it reapplys pressure and engages the hydraulic clutches in the transmission to create the needed gear
pressure problems occure when the car is transbraked, neutral dropped, low on fluid, overheated, or abused
01-24-2010, 08:31 PM
#30
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100% agree on your point that dealers have tools we don't. Especially the compression tester.
However, over 4 years of watching stories and posts on here has taught me (right or wrong), that there is a fair chance of a given service manager and/or technician not recognizing the symptoms correctly and using the correct tool, or using the correct tool, but incorrectly. For example, I have seen several dozen reports of 'compression of 0' from the dealer, which can't happen unless you aren't turning the rotors...or the rotors are missing. Time and time again, people take there 8s to a dealer and mention that the tech makes a references to hardly ever seeing an 8, or never having worked on one before.
Whether this is caused by owners not being able to relay information clearly, dealers not interpretting it correctly, simple incompetence, or lack of training, the dis-connect exists. Since there is so much you can do yourself, I always advocate doing those things first, and going to the dealer when that doesn't help or when it's clearly an engine or cat problem.
Thanks for the info on ATs. I have no objection to being corrected or learning.
However, over 4 years of watching stories and posts on here has taught me (right or wrong), that there is a fair chance of a given service manager and/or technician not recognizing the symptoms correctly and using the correct tool, or using the correct tool, but incorrectly. For example, I have seen several dozen reports of 'compression of 0' from the dealer, which can't happen unless you aren't turning the rotors...or the rotors are missing. Time and time again, people take there 8s to a dealer and mention that the tech makes a references to hardly ever seeing an 8, or never having worked on one before.
Whether this is caused by owners not being able to relay information clearly, dealers not interpretting it correctly, simple incompetence, or lack of training, the dis-connect exists. Since there is so much you can do yourself, I always advocate doing those things first, and going to the dealer when that doesn't help or when it's clearly an engine or cat problem.
Thanks for the info on ATs. I have no objection to being corrected or learning.
01-24-2010, 08:40 PM
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oh most definetly do i agree with that. my job has showed me that at least 70% of the world is retarded in one way or another, and that in no way excludes techs
and i hope i didnt come out like an ***, ive noticed that when i type i tend to appear like an jerk....which im not in person
and i hope i didnt come out like an ***, ive noticed that when i type i tend to appear like an jerk....which im not in person
01-24-2010, 08:49 PM
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You didn't
I tend to appear like a pompous *** when I type, and I'm not
"Being right" is too often viewed as a competition.
Everyone can be right, whether or not they actually agree
I tend to appear like a pompous *** when I type, and I'm not
"Being right" is too often viewed as a competition.
Everyone can be right, whether or not they actually agree
01-24-2010, 09:00 PM
#33
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nah not at all
and ive noticed that too
and to keep on topic, rpm and idle noise will change when cycling the selector because the pcm is prepping the transmission for the gear it needs to be in, whether it be activating or deactivating the specific servos and solenoids in the trans for the gear you selected
and your problem sounds like coils, drive it on the highway for a while and one or 2 wot pulls then pull over and look under the car, if the cats glowing its dead if not its still living
easiest way to test your cat
and ive noticed that too
and to keep on topic, rpm and idle noise will change when cycling the selector because the pcm is prepping the transmission for the gear it needs to be in, whether it be activating or deactivating the specific servos and solenoids in the trans for the gear you selected
and your problem sounds like coils, drive it on the highway for a while and one or 2 wot pulls then pull over and look under the car, if the cats glowing its dead if not its still living
easiest way to test your cat
01-25-2010, 05:19 PM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7
Update on my car after an hour trip to the dealership (Matthew Mazda at Vestal NY)
1. They can not provide the compression test for my car since they don't have the machine that can test the rotary engine (the old machine broke down when they moved from Corey NY to Vestal NY and they said it will cost them $28K for the machine so they don't have one at the moment
)
2. So I explained to the mechanic what's going on w/ my car and then he did some tests and concluded as follow
- the engine mount is no longer in good shape (both of them) that's why I get the vibration/shudder
- he doesn't think I got any rough idle problems, and also no know issues with engine light on, I asked him about IG Coils and Wires, He said they are ok, no need to change, I don't think he looked at them at all since he said that I never changed them on any RX8 that come to service here so far.
3. I already ordered the new IG Coils, Wires, Engine Mounts (FE01-39-040 and FE01-39-050). Will let the local mechanics to change them, I will supply them the parts. I should do it by myself, let see if there is no more snow, I'll try it!!! otherwise i will ask them to do it, BUT We have to careful Tell them Don't mess up the Wires and Don't over tighten the mounts, Right? Any thing that I should be aware of then ?
Thanks Guys!!!! I am really really appreciated your guys' help !
Update on my car after an hour trip to the dealership (Matthew Mazda at Vestal NY)
1. They can not provide the compression test for my car since they don't have the machine that can test the rotary engine (the old machine broke down when they moved from Corey NY to Vestal NY and they said it will cost them $28K for the machine so they don't have one at the moment
)2. So I explained to the mechanic what's going on w/ my car and then he did some tests and concluded as follow
- the engine mount is no longer in good shape (both of them) that's why I get the vibration/shudder
- he doesn't think I got any rough idle problems, and also no know issues with engine light on, I asked him about IG Coils and Wires, He said they are ok, no need to change, I don't think he looked at them at all since he said that I never changed them on any RX8 that come to service here so far.
3. I already ordered the new IG Coils, Wires, Engine Mounts (FE01-39-040 and FE01-39-050). Will let the local mechanics to change them, I will supply them the parts. I should do it by myself, let see if there is no more snow, I'll try it!!! otherwise i will ask them to do it, BUT We have to careful Tell them Don't mess up the Wires and Don't over tighten the mounts, Right? Any thing that I should be aware of then ?
Thanks Guys!!!! I am really really appreciated your guys' help !
01-25-2010, 05:27 PM
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Oh, Also the CAT is ok! I also suspect that he did check it anyway I will check it by myself as you suggest then but so far there is just slightly rough idle, after IG coils and Wires change, it should be ok!
Thanks!!!!
Thanks!!!!
01-25-2010, 05:29 PM
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Sounds good. The motor mounts might be beyond you. I am not sure what all is involved there, but you might need something to relieve the weight of the engine.
For the rest, I hope you go with doing it yourself You will learn alot.
The biggest concern that you or your mechanic will have with the coils, wires, and plugs is making sure the plugs marked L are next to the L stamped in the housing, the plugs marked T are next to the T stamped in the housing. And the right coils are wired to the right plugs.
Other than that, you should be good.
Helghast7, this ^ is what I have come to expect. Pleasantly surprised when I am mistaken, but all too often this is the story. I wonder how many 8s needed it and he ignore them.
For the rest, I hope you go with doing it yourself
You will learn alot. The biggest concern that you or your mechanic will have with the coils, wires, and plugs is making sure the plugs marked L are next to the L stamped in the housing, the plugs marked T are next to the T stamped in the housing. And the right coils are wired to the right plugs.
Other than that, you should be good.
Helghast7, this ^ is what I have come to expect. Pleasantly surprised when I am mistaken, but all too often this is the story. I wonder how many 8s needed it and he ignore them.
01-26-2010, 06:43 PM
#37
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There isn't a DIY for the alternator on here. It's really too simple and too rare for anyone to have made one.
(I am writing this from memory of what I dealt with helping to change a water pump on another 8, which is right next to the alternator, so I might not have everything exact)
-Basically, pop the hood, remove the engine cover and the battery cover.
-Remove the battery (physically out of the car, it's in the way)
-Remove the battery box. This is easier said than done your first time. The battery box is a 2 piece deal, with plastic clips holding the top and bottom pieces together. It doesn't require much force to remove, but if you haven't found the clips, you can yank away on it all day and it won't budge. The bottom piece just removes with a few bolts in the bottom, I think they are 12mm, maybe 10mm.
- You may want to remove the intake as well. Your call on that. The dealer has my 8 atm and there isn't another 8 on the sales floor here for me to look at. I don't know how much it is or is not in the way.
- Your call on removing the strut bar as well. Easy to remove and replace, and could be in the way since I think it sits right over the alternator.
- So now the top of the front and the front of the top of the engine is exposed, with the alternator attached to the front.
- There are some bolts holding the alternator to the engine block, a bolt locking the belt tensioner in place, and a bolt to adjust the tensioner. Basically remove all of them.
- Get the belt out of the way. Your call on removing the belt or just hooking it low out of the way
- Slide the alternator out of it's installation place.
- Slide the new one in.
- You will have to torque down the alternator mount bolts probably. I am guessing you don't have a torque wrench for exact specs anyway, but make sure it's secure without excess pressure that might put too much stress on the engine block. Crack the block and the rest of this doesn't matter any more. I would recommend checking the bolts after a few hundred miles of driving to make sure they are still tight, vibration will try to loosen them, and if they loosen, the belt will probably come out of perfect line, causing belt wear, belt failure, and damage other stuff.
- Replace the tensioner loosely
- Replace the belt, make sure you follow the same path that it was on before.
- Tighten the belt appropriately. I believe the standard is taking the middle of the belt's longest section and twisting it with your fingers. You should be able to twist it 90 degrees, but not more. Can twist it past 90 degrees? Tighten more. Can't get to 90 degrees? Loosen a bit.
- Replace battery box, battery, intake if you removed it, engine cover and battery cover.
Somewhere on the site here the repair manual is posted that probably has more detailed steps.
Easy though, no jacking of the car, plenty of room to work with once you get the intake and battery out of the way.
(I am writing this from memory of what I dealt with helping to change a water pump on another 8, which is right next to the alternator, so I might not have everything exact)
-Basically, pop the hood, remove the engine cover and the battery cover.
-Remove the battery (physically out of the car, it's in the way)
-Remove the battery box. This is easier said than done your first time. The battery box is a 2 piece deal, with plastic clips holding the top and bottom pieces together. It doesn't require much force to remove, but if you haven't found the clips, you can yank away on it all day and it won't budge. The bottom piece just removes with a few bolts in the bottom, I think they are 12mm, maybe 10mm.
- You may want to remove the intake as well. Your call on that. The dealer has my 8 atm and there isn't another 8 on the sales floor here for me to look at. I don't know how much it is or is not in the way.
- Your call on removing the strut bar as well. Easy to remove and replace, and could be in the way since I think it sits right over the alternator.
- So now the top of the front and the front of the top of the engine is exposed, with the alternator attached to the front.
- There are some bolts holding the alternator to the engine block, a bolt locking the belt tensioner in place, and a bolt to adjust the tensioner. Basically remove all of them.
- Get the belt out of the way. Your call on removing the belt or just hooking it low out of the way
- Slide the alternator out of it's installation place.
- Slide the new one in.
- You will have to torque down the alternator mount bolts probably. I am guessing you don't have a torque wrench for exact specs anyway, but make sure it's secure without excess pressure that might put too much stress on the engine block. Crack the block and the rest of this doesn't matter any more. I would recommend checking the bolts after a few hundred miles of driving to make sure they are still tight, vibration will try to loosen them, and if they loosen, the belt will probably come out of perfect line, causing belt wear, belt failure, and damage other stuff.
- Replace the tensioner loosely
- Replace the belt, make sure you follow the same path that it was on before.
- Tighten the belt appropriately. I believe the standard is taking the middle of the belt's longest section and twisting it with your fingers. You should be able to twist it 90 degrees, but not more. Can twist it past 90 degrees? Tighten more. Can't get to 90 degrees? Loosen a bit.
- Replace battery box, battery, intake if you removed it, engine cover and battery cover.
Somewhere on the site here the repair manual is posted that probably has more detailed steps.
Easy though, no jacking of the car, plenty of room to work with once you get the intake and battery out of the way.
02-06-2010, 02:32 AM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7
Today I did go to the local mechanic shop to let them replaced Engine Mounts (2 of them), they also replaced IG coils, IG wires (they previously did replace the plug sparks).
However !!!! Last night, before I went to the gym, I started the car and the Engine sing was blinking and rough idle in the low rpm btw 1000 -750 rpm I thought that it needs IG coils and wires stuffs so I didn't worry about it too much, the car warm up and I drove to the gym then I drove back (of course the engine sign was on), then when I was approaching the parking lot at my apt, I hit the break paddle and the rpm went down and the car liked losing power and the rpm keep going down under 500 rpm then the engine just shut down!! and I try to start the car again but I could not then I tried 3-4 more times, still not, then I wait in my car for about 10 mins and start then I could but the idle was rough in btw 1000 rpm to 750 rpm, so Any Clues ???????
So I think positive that it was those things, since I will replace them this morning anyway.
Then the mechanics told me this morning that it was the misfire code (Hurrr again !!!!) and they have no clue, Then After that they changed IG coils, wires, mounts. Then I drove home and then happen again ENGINE shut down!!!! and wait 10 mins to start it up.
When I started up the first time after the mechanic shop the idel was very rough it kept flicker up down 1500 rpm and 1000 rpm and the Engine had a noise but i couldn't catch what it was.
Any Clues ???????? Thanks!!!!!
So headache !!! Going to take tylenol and sleep now
Today I did go to the local mechanic shop to let them replaced Engine Mounts (2 of them), they also replaced IG coils, IG wires (they previously did replace the plug sparks).
However !!!! Last night, before I went to the gym, I started the car and the Engine sing was blinking and rough idle in the low rpm btw 1000 -750 rpm I thought that it needs IG coils and wires stuffs so I didn't worry about it too much, the car warm up and I drove to the gym then I drove back (of course the engine sign was on), then when I was approaching the parking lot at my apt, I hit the break paddle and the rpm went down and the car liked losing power and the rpm keep going down under 500 rpm then the engine just shut down!! and I try to start the car again but I could not then I tried 3-4 more times, still not, then I wait in my car for about 10 mins and start then I could but the idle was rough in btw 1000 rpm to 750 rpm, so Any Clues ???????
So I think positive that it was those things, since I will replace them this morning anyway.
Then the mechanics told me this morning that it was the misfire code (Hurrr again !!!!) and they have no clue, Then After that they changed IG coils, wires, mounts. Then I drove home and then happen again ENGINE shut down!!!! and wait 10 mins to start it up.
When I started up the first time after the mechanic shop the idel was very rough it kept flicker up down 1500 rpm and 1000 rpm and the Engine had a noise but i couldn't catch what it was.
Any Clues ???????? Thanks!!!!!
So headache !!! Going to take tylenol and sleep now
02-06-2010, 07:50 AM
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well, if you replaced the coils and mounts, your getting the proper amounts of fuel, the only thing i would really suggest is to:
A, check to make sure you dont have a vaccum leak
B, clean off the MAF or have them test it to make sure its working
i would also(though your definetly going to get a code for this) try driving the car without the cat to see if it helps, cats are sometimes a little goofy to diag when they first show signs of dying..like to play games and what not
to check for a vaccum leak the absolute easiest way to check that is to get a can of brake clean, and spray along the intake and vaccum lines, if there is a leak when the brake clean hits it idle will dramaticaly change
but if you bring it to a shop they should have a smoke machine to test for it
oh, on a side note, now that i remember, a couple of my friends told me a couple weeks ago, that on the rx8, when you change the coils they need a drive cycle to make the pcm learn the new ones
i would also suggest you remove the spark plugs and see what they look like, its very very easy to foul the plugs on rotaries, on my FD if the engines running poorly i could need to change them more then once
A, check to make sure you dont have a vaccum leak
B, clean off the MAF or have them test it to make sure its working
i would also(though your definetly going to get a code for this) try driving the car without the cat to see if it helps, cats are sometimes a little goofy to diag when they first show signs of dying..like to play games and what not
to check for a vaccum leak the absolute easiest way to check that is to get a can of brake clean, and spray along the intake and vaccum lines, if there is a leak when the brake clean hits it idle will dramaticaly change
but if you bring it to a shop they should have a smoke machine to test for it
oh, on a side note, now that i remember, a couple of my friends told me a couple weeks ago, that on the rx8, when you change the coils they need a drive cycle to make the pcm learn the new ones
i would also suggest you remove the spark plugs and see what they look like, its very very easy to foul the plugs on rotaries, on my FD if the engines running poorly i could need to change them more then once
02-07-2010, 09:53 AM
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Yeah, your cat could be failing. Remember I mentioned earlier that coil and plug failure can lead to cat failure? Flooding it drastically accelerates that.
Try pulling the cat off and take a look inside. Post a picture of what the inside looks like if you can. Driving without a cat at all will be incredibly loud and obnoxious, but if your cat is indeed failing, then pulling it off will 'revive' your engine significantly.
Education bit:
A clogged cat can't flow the exhaust it needs to, and will keep getting clogged more and more, further restricting exhaust flow. Eventually (and generally fairly quickly), it will get bad enough that the exhaust can't escape the rotor housings, and now you have exhaust in the air/fuel mixture messing up combustion and such. The more you drive it, the more exhaust will back up until you won't have enough oxygen in the combustion, and it will stall. Letting it sit for a while lets the exhaust filter out slowly through what holes are left, and you will be able to restart....until it gets clogged again.
Try pulling the cat off and take a look inside. Post a picture of what the inside looks like if you can. Driving without a cat at all will be incredibly loud and obnoxious, but if your cat is indeed failing, then pulling it off will 'revive' your engine significantly.
Education bit:
A clogged cat can't flow the exhaust it needs to, and will keep getting clogged more and more, further restricting exhaust flow. Eventually (and generally fairly quickly), it will get bad enough that the exhaust can't escape the rotor housings, and now you have exhaust in the air/fuel mixture messing up combustion and such. The more you drive it, the more exhaust will back up until you won't have enough oxygen in the combustion, and it will stall. Letting it sit for a while lets the exhaust filter out slowly through what holes are left, and you will be able to restart....until it gets clogged again.
02-07-2010, 04:37 PM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7,
Update ! Today it's unfortunate that my friend got a flat tire so I have to drive him to monroe to fix his tire, so I asked monroe mechanic to check my car (it's free at least)
1. The MAF is clean and looks shine (pretty new to me) so not MAF
2. No vacuum leak as he said and he pointed out to me but he didn't do any test as I was in the room w/ him
3. So it might be CAT !!! but he insisted to check it since he told me that if it failed, your check engine sign will be on, Well it did on right after he handed the key to me and started the engine and wala the engine sign was Blink and then Stay ON, and then Blink and ON
Also I noticed that the exhaust tail pipe make a noice like pop-pop-pop-pop and vibrate and there almost no smoke or air coming out from the pipe. However, This morning when I started a car there were lots of white smoke coming out.
We (the mechanic and I) pulled out the air filter and it was quite dirty and there were OIL Stains in the filter (ON the white sponge) SO I would say it's CATTT !!!!!!
Any suggestion on the next step !!
Thanks!!!!
Update ! Today it's unfortunate that my friend got a flat tire so I have to drive him to monroe to fix his tire, so I asked monroe mechanic to check my car (it's free at least)
1. The MAF is clean and looks shine (pretty new to me) so not MAF
2. No vacuum leak as he said and he pointed out to me but he didn't do any test as I was in the room w/ him
3. So it might be CAT !!! but he insisted to check it since he told me that if it failed, your check engine sign will be on, Well it did on right after he handed the key to me and started the engine and wala the engine sign was Blink and then Stay ON, and then Blink and ON
Also I noticed that the exhaust tail pipe make a noice like pop-pop-pop-pop and vibrate and there almost no smoke or air coming out from the pipe. However, This morning when I started a car there were lots of white smoke coming out.
We (the mechanic and I) pulled out the air filter and it was quite dirty and there were OIL Stains in the filter (ON the white sponge) SO I would say it's CATTT !!!!!!
Any suggestion on the next step !!
Thanks!!!!
02-07-2010, 06:11 PM
#43
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Yup, all of that sounds very typical of cat failure. The smoke is normally from melting of plastic and such around the cat from the excess heat, the lack of exhaust out the rear shows that something is heavily clogged, and the speed at which the symptoms accelerated just shows how fast it can go for failing to failed.
Being past any warranty, these are your options:
A) Buy a new cat from the dealer. Current list price on them is roughly $1,400 just for the cat, plus labor or bolts, etc...
B) Buy a used cat from someone here on the boards. You can't get a used cat from a business, as they are not legally sellable. Individually is gray area that you can skirt in. Typical prices for used cats are $100 to $300, depending on the mileage on them, and usually are up for sale because the owner bought a midpipe and doesn't want it laying around
C) Buy a midpipe. Brand new, you can get them as cheap as ~$150, or as expensive as ~$550. You very much get what you pay for here. Getting the $150 midpipe is show you how annoying the rasp is, and you probably won't get much life out of the resonator packing before it fails completely and you have nothing quieting it down. Attracts alot of attention from local police. The more money you spend, the better the tone will be, the less rasp (better resonators, thicker side walls, more R+D), and the more life you will get out of the packing. Only 1 midpipe out there doesn't use packing, and it technically isn't on the market yet, but should be soon, the BHR midpipe. Pricing looks to be around $500-550. I've had their prototype on my 8 for a month or so on a loan, and I loved it. It would definitely be my choice over any other. Your opinions may vary.
However, keep in mind that with any midpipe, you will have a check engine light for emissions failure, and you won't be able to pass ODB2 emissions inspection unless you have something to block the emissions CEL, namely, an AccessPORT ($495 new price, might be able to get one used for slightly less. Used ones are rare.) If you have an actual smog test, where they put your car on rollers, you will always fail unless you can swap a cat on for a bit, usually borrowed. Once I get my midpipe, I will be keeping my cat for swaps as needed.
D) A high-flow cat. Prices are all over the board, and generally higher than anything else above, and often don't have much lifespan to them, so generally not something people go for.
Being past any warranty, these are your options:
A) Buy a new cat from the dealer. Current list price on them is roughly $1,400 just for the cat, plus labor or bolts, etc...
B) Buy a used cat from someone here on the boards. You can't get a used cat from a business, as they are not legally sellable. Individually is gray area that you can skirt in. Typical prices for used cats are $100 to $300, depending on the mileage on them, and usually are up for sale because the owner bought a midpipe and doesn't want it laying around
C) Buy a midpipe. Brand new, you can get them as cheap as ~$150, or as expensive as ~$550. You very much get what you pay for here. Getting the $150 midpipe is show you how annoying the rasp is, and you probably won't get much life out of the resonator packing before it fails completely and you have nothing quieting it down. Attracts alot of attention from local police. The more money you spend, the better the tone will be, the less rasp (better resonators, thicker side walls, more R+D), and the more life you will get out of the packing. Only 1 midpipe out there doesn't use packing, and it technically isn't on the market yet, but should be soon, the BHR midpipe. Pricing looks to be around $500-550. I've had their prototype on my 8 for a month or so on a loan, and I loved it. It would definitely be my choice over any other. Your opinions may vary.
However, keep in mind that with any midpipe, you will have a check engine light for emissions failure, and you won't be able to pass ODB2 emissions inspection unless you have something to block the emissions CEL, namely, an AccessPORT ($495 new price, might be able to get one used for slightly less. Used ones are rare.) If you have an actual smog test, where they put your car on rollers, you will always fail unless you can swap a cat on for a bit, usually borrowed. Once I get my midpipe, I will be keeping my cat for swaps as needed.
D) A high-flow cat. Prices are all over the board, and generally higher than anything else above, and often don't have much lifespan to them, so generally not something people go for.
02-07-2010, 10:43 PM
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my car is doing the exact same thing, thanks guys for all the information, ill be taking my car into the shop for the third time in less than a month tomorrow, hopefully they can finally figure out what the heck is wrong with it. problems like these are really making me regret my purchase even if it is amazing to drive!
02-07-2010, 11:39 PM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7
Many Thanks, I will buy the after market for a CAT and let the local mechanic install it then. And I will update all about it Thx!!!!!
Many Thanks, I will buy the after market for a CAT and let the local mechanic install it then. And I will update all about it Thx!!!!!
02-08-2010, 04:28 PM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7,
1. Would you elaborate what's the connection btw misfire engine code (now I get one again, just replaced spark plugs 3 weeks ago) with the failing/failed CAT?
2. Would a misfire engine code indicate that I need new spark plugs again?
3. I didn't get the failed CAT code yet (a misfire code again ), and it is very very very hard to convince any mechanic to check the CAT !!! when you don't have a code yet, anyway I schedule it soon but they said they need to wait until they get the gasket.
Thanks!!!
1. Would you elaborate what's the connection btw misfire engine code (now I get one again, just replaced spark plugs 3 weeks ago) with the failing/failed CAT?
2. Would a misfire engine code indicate that I need new spark plugs again?
3. I didn't get the failed CAT code yet (a misfire code again
), and it is very very very hard to convince any mechanic to check the CAT !!! when you don't have a code yet, anyway I schedule it soon but they said they need to wait until they get the gasket. Thanks!!!
Last edited by dorayee; 02-08-2010 at 04:33 PM.
02-08-2010, 05:15 PM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7,
1. Would you elaborate what's the connection btw misfire engine code (now I get one again, just replaced spark plugs 3 weeks ago) with the failing/failed CAT?
2. Would a misfire engine code indicate that I need new spark plugs again?
3. I didn't get the failed CAT code yet (a misfire code again ), and it is very very very hard to convince any mechanic to check the CAT !!! when you don't have a code yet, anyway I schedule it soon but they said they need to wait until they get the gasket.
Thanks!!!
1. Would you elaborate what's the connection btw misfire engine code (now I get one again, just replaced spark plugs 3 weeks ago) with the failing/failed CAT?
2. Would a misfire engine code indicate that I need new spark plugs again?
3. I didn't get the failed CAT code yet (a misfire code again
), and it is very very very hard to convince any mechanic to check the CAT !!! when you don't have a code yet, anyway I schedule it soon but they said they need to wait until they get the gasket. Thanks!!!
2: Generally misfires are coils or plugs, but since we know your cat failed, wait until that is replaced. If you still keep getting misfires, then something else is still wrong, but don't keep throwing money at coils and plugs until the cat is replaced. Failures go downstream, not upstream. alternator/battery -> coils -> plugs -> cat. Pick any one to fail, and whatever is to the right will start failing too, but not to the left.
3: If you can't convince anyone to look at the cat, pull it yourself and take a picture of the internals from the header side. Really would just need to remove the bolts from the header side (tricky, and could be rusted), slide down that end, shine a flashlight down it and snap a cell phone pic. Post it up here and we can confirm for you if you are still unsure.
The way I got the dealer to look at the cat instead of everything else was to drive there with the cat in the trunk, and pulled it out and physically showed him the internal damage. Can't argue with that.
02-11-2010, 11:44 AM
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Hey RIWWP & Helghast7,
As I went to see a new friendly mechanic this morning, and found the source of the problem (this guy used to work w/ RX7 before at NJ area, now he moved to Central NY).
The problem is not the CAT clogged/failing but it's a vacuum leak !! he used a spray bottle to trace it and he said the most likely would be in the nozzle intake before to the Rotor engine, whenever he spray in that area the idle of the car changing so he would say i would need a ring gasket in that .... Anyone experience like this ???? and What part I am looking to replace/order ???
PS: Engine CEL Code, P2096 --- CAT runs lean ---> vacuum leak
P0300, P0301 , misfire random misfire, rotor #1 misfire
He said you got the low rough idle and stall engine at the stop sign/when you hit the break to slow the car........ ====> All these are from your VACUMM LEAK !!!!!
Thanks Guys!! Let me know what part i am looking to replace, def some people on this board would go to the same experiences as I did.
As I went to see a new friendly mechanic this morning, and found the source of the problem (this guy used to work w/ RX7 before at NJ area, now he moved to Central NY).
The problem is not the CAT clogged/failing but it's a vacuum leak !! he used a spray bottle to trace it and he said the most likely would be in the nozzle intake before to the Rotor engine, whenever he spray in that area the idle of the car changing so he would say i would need a ring gasket in that .... Anyone experience like this ???? and What part I am looking to replace/order ???
PS: Engine CEL Code, P2096 --- CAT runs lean ---> vacuum leak
P0300, P0301 , misfire random misfire, rotor #1 misfire
He said you got the low rough idle and stall engine at the stop sign/when you hit the break to slow the car........ ====> All these are from your VACUMM LEAK !!!!!
Thanks Guys!! Let me know what part i am looking to replace, def some people on this board would go to the same experiences as I did.
Last edited by dorayee; 02-11-2010 at 05:21 PM.
02-11-2010, 11:47 AM
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Interesting. Yeah, I guess that certainly could do it. I haven't seen anyone report a vacuum leak before for a stock 8, so it wasn't something coming to mind. I'll have to add it for the list.