Bad Guy - Nearly Everyone!
 

:banghead:

As I sat here on my patio this morning, sipping my coffee and contemplating my day, I came to some conclusions about how people transact with one another and realized some seemingly universal truths about the way customers behave:Because of the nature of what I do, much of these realizations have saddened me to some extent. Not that I didn’t know these things before, but realizing how universal they were was kinda depressing.
I’ve always entered into these transactions with the understanding that it was a relationship. I just hadn’t fully realized that this relationship is one of victim and perpetrator.
I apologize in advance if you feel you are a customer that doesn't fall into this order, but you probably are and don't realize it.
And not just with me - this is everywhere.
I am constantly stunned with how unethical people are on a daily basis.
I don't mean immoral - just unethical.

Any port in a storm as long as I get what I want and I get it free.

Not a rant - just a commentary.

Its like that old saying about common sense...

Its not so common!

bad day? i've always admired that you are about as straight a shooter as you're going to get. i think a lot of the customer mentality comes from the fact that people are so coddled into not needing to take responsibility for any actions in this day and age. and the fact that the phrase "the customer is always right" when in fact they are not. it's unfortunate that you've run into a great deal of people that fall into your bad guy category but there are still plenty who are here trying to learn and are willing to work with someone that puts out a great product for almost no personal cost.

and don't get me started about people willing to cheat. i have to review that for a living so that's a can of worms i'll leave sealed.

in the interest of full disclosure to those that think i'm a fanboi (which i've never liked the term referring to anyone but whatever), i have never used MM's services. i am just an observer that enjoys learning from the experts. that's not to say i won't someday purchase a Cobb AP from MM but i have not purchased anything from him before.

keep up the good work and don't let this all distract you from your love of tuning.

I have to agree with you on almost all of that Jeff.

I'll add this one since I work in the Financial Industry:
Customers will lie and steal in direct proportion to the transaction amount.

+1
Society preaches liability instead of responsibility. Freedom without responsibility or consequence. Allegation instead of truth.

It's sad.

And it sucks.

Catching thieves for a living just drives this in every day.

As the creator of two of the most epic frustration threads, I feel I can offer an honest counterpoint: that the morally bankrupt among us give the rest of us a bad rep.

I do however subscribe to the notion that these maggots comprise more than 50% of the populace.....

S

I know exactly what you mean, working at Geek Squad has taught me quite a bit about dealing with people on a daily basis and with their computers or other electronics.

I think the general public has a low IQ level.....plain and simple

Or laziness with an inability to learn

I am also in the customer support line of work.. I am a computer tech/Network engineer and I must agree a large majority of people do fall under your observations.... I feel ya bro!

What do you expect? This IS the planet Earth after all??

Check your PM

:suspect:

a real good friend of mine was in the same situation as jeff. started his own shop to help people like us who love cars. things went sour pretty fast, just like jeff. it's amazing what goes on in the mind of a customer (i admit, i have been that way before).

i applaud jeff for the incredible work he's done.

btw, when are you going to buy me a motor for blowing it up?? hahaha!

You say you already knew this .
I remember back in the day when your treatment of vendors on this site used to irk me . I never said as much but I always used to think to myself " wait till he gets some customers of his own ......"

Except I never expected ANY vendor to carry my weight or give me something for nothing.
I give vendors what they give.
I should only be so lucky.

I don't have customers offering me data to improve my services/products or data from the field.
I don't have customers manufacturing parts at their own expense to address short-comings in my products.
I don't have customers reverse-engineering my stuff to improve it - they only do to steal it and give it to competitors or just to release it into the wild to show how "clever" they are.

In my experience I hate to say it but I have noticed that "good fences make good neighbors." I know Robert Frost meant that to be a pessimistic viewpoint but really I've noticed the better and more detailed a contract between you and your customer the smoother things go. Stuff like good will and trust go out the window pretty quickly when the first problem or missed deadline pops up.

Group Hug!

:grouphug:

http://www.catwack.com/pics/640.jpg

Sometimes..."I'm totally glad I dipped in your ink"...

Alot of this has to do with today's moral standards and ethics.

Lack of...

Us old dogs can only rely on Dec 2012 to end it all.........

You should see what happens in the businees world.

Look at todays economy.

Mortgage problems are due to consumer greed, Most of them lied about the income they were making. Its a two way street bankers and lying consumers about the income they make.

In my current job, doing the same I did before, we charge more for the jobs we do, the boss takes no crap and we don't give the customer anything we don't feel like.

In my previous job, we charged less, the boss bent over for the customer, and I hated almost every client.

The difference is the sell-in expectations and the price, and the kind of clients they give you. Cheap squeezed prices actually gave us clients that nagged and wanted everything for free, those who pay know that changes cost money. In both cases we do our best to deliver what's agreed on. And they know they get the best service around.

I've usually defended MM and his likes in here because:
1) I feel 99% people that deal with you know what they can expect, and that you deliver great results, and what they are going into (that not everything will happen TODAY).
2) You are dedication driven
3) I hate people who have unreasonable expectations and never RTFM because I've dealt with them myself.

When that said, I can sympathize with people who feel there's a lack of communication with some vendors, because I find that important, and I know my customers do as well. So I may be one of the people described anyway, though I think I mostly don't waste my time trying to lure a few dollars away from people, I let people with shady morals keep it and enjoy it instead.

dont trip MM like roariee said this is planet earth. there is always gonna be Douche Bag that just like to make other peoples lifes hard. their just doing so cuz their lifes suck and they want to make everone feel like they do.

Just for a perspective from the other side of business, my customers are my company's employees. I am the department head of Purchasing for a couple hundred million dollar company, as such I oversee/negotiate both service contracts and product in excess of $30 million per year.

From my experiences you could exchange "customer" with "vendor" and be dead right. This is all a merry-go-round, the same bad customers are also bad vendors in their day job. It's all a perpetual dysfunction.

edit: But I agree with Ray, the good customers/vendors make it rewarding and worthwhile.

So are you saying all customers fall into all categories, or all customers fall into at least one category?


"I just hadn’t fully realized that this relationship is one of victim and perpetrator."

Maybe if you weren't dressed like such a slut . . .


Honestly, this thread has drama queen written all over it.





Sweeping generalizations are the tools of the ignorant.


:beerchug:

Well, as I'm sure you realized because you read and understood my original post entirely, that I am only amused by this, not traumatized.

No matter how people behave, I still get to sit on my patio every day, soak in the sun and laugh at the whirlwind of negative karma that my sweepingly generalized targets are swimming in.

Only because I'm not your customer! :p:

I feel your pain bro' :wtf:

As far as the statements Jeff made, I read through each and every one and I'm happy to say I've never behaved that way ever, I have had reason and opportunity in the past to abuse the "customer is always right" nonsense, just chose not to as I didn't feel it was appropriate nor would it have helped anything.
I don't believe ALL customers/vendors/people/whatever suck, I believe there's a percentage that do that make the rest of us decent, honest, hard-working, morally ethical people suffer and I do agree that crap is lame.

some people abuse businesses, some businesses abuse people, just sucks for everyone I guess, but life goes on and all you can do is try and take something positive from it and learn from it all. :)

I now wonder what type of customer I am? I've never bought anything from MM, but I have from BHR and other vendors.


I believe most people feel the need to get the upper hand in every transaction they make, business or otherwise. The trick is to make everyone feel they are getting something special even though every client is getting the same thing.

I assume everyone from Texas is in the category they're referring to. :lol:

i still love you Jeff :)

you too Ray :) hope im a hole in one :P

lol @ "scammers should all die" tag

^^

That's amusing as well.

It's interesting to know that you don't take your customers' "misfortunes"(relatively speaking) seriously.

Even if you're thinking, "This guy is an idiot..", you should be trying to figure out a way to solve their problem instead of ridiculing them. They are putting money in your pocket, and have a problem with something that you have supplied, regardless of cost/profit.. That is customer service.

Customer service is 95% of someones reputation. Reputation may not reflect quality of work, but it is very important.

No. I don't. They have mothers for that.

As previously noted, I do figure out their problems. And it usually costs me money to do so.
But, ultimately, I am not interested in CS. Just results.

My reputation precedes me.
I don't suffer fools gladly and it is not a surprise to anyone.
And it is for precisely that reason that I am often afforded the luxury of choosing my customers instead of the other way around.

A horrible commentary, not so much on your customers, but more on your view of your customers and fellow human beings. Every interaction, contract, transaction, relationship requires at least two people to succeed. Think about this: maybe cynical, resentful, vindictive, mean-spirited victims tend to create or find the situations in which they feel they repeatedly find themselves. I deal with extremely difficult and demanding clients all day long. With some I can make real friends, others are just part of a business transaction that I freely choose to create, continue, and profit from. Sounds like you need more of a break to gain a more generous perspective.

ate...too much...

fell victim of greed...

thus i expire...

All I can say is.........



I don't blame you. With as many customers as you have, taking every alleged "problem" seriously, you'd probably end up jumping off a bridge somewhere..

It's still nice to try, though.

I guess you never did claim to really to carry your customers everywhere they go.

One of the things I like about you is persistent consistency.

I also kind of expect you to say that you don't care what I think ;).

Precisely.

Don't misread me - I have a handful of people with whom I deal that are truly amazing folks.
But they end up not being customers - they are my friends.

Thanks. It really is one of my serious personal goals.


I don't care what you think.

will the AP mask a CEL?

no, but it'll gag a donkey!

After sending you numerous logs of my donkey i still think my AFR's are too high

I was wondering what those were from.
For the record, donkey logs smell like shit.

+1. It really is sad that we have devolved into the society were are today. I guess it's better than the alternative, though.

Well, I'm glad you have friends, but don't they ever ask you why you have a hobby of being a victim?

I still find it funny as I read this thread... I keep comparing my job to MM's... All the people that I deal with on a daily basis that really are too stupid to own or use a computer. And no matter how many time you explain things to them they still just dont get it. And its mostly because they wont take the time to TRY to understand. Some examples.

I tell a customer to restart their computer, 2 seconds later they say "It says the same thing" - they just turned the monitor off and on:icon_no2:

I ask a customer to bring their computer in to our shop, 30 mins later they walk in carrying the keyboard - I say, not the keyboard, the computer, the big box on the floor, they say " oh! you meany the modem" or "oh! you mean the floppy drive" - like somehow humans can cram every major computer part into a keyboard but somehow it take a 3x3x1 cube to house a modem or a floppy drive :banghead:

I have many more I could list....

My point being, is that most people dont understand how a computer works, or how a car works, much less a rotary engine car, even many on this forum - (not trying to diss anyone just stating the facts as I see them) The only thing they know is that they want them to work at 100% efficency 100% of the time, no matter how many pron sites they have visited and how many viruses/spyware they have. Also , there cars to work at 100% efficency 100% of the time no matter how they have abused it, and how poorly they have maintained it.

Example - customers think I should be able to backup all of their data, wipe the computer, reload windows, reload all of there program, setup all of there devices, restore there data, and configure all of their software back to the way it was in less than an hour....WTF! :lol: Because they have no idea what it takes time wise to do all of that, not counting all of the unforseen things. i.e. Customer says " I know I told you the only thing i needed backed up was my documents and pictures, but I also need all of the (illegal) music I downloaded!" = " I know I said the only mods I had were an intake and exhaust, but now I added (or forgot to tell you) that I added a mid-pipe.)"

These things take time, and time is money. I strive to do the best I possibly can for my customers, but it does get extremely stressful when people dont understand the details and time it takes to do a job CORRECTLY !

Personally, I think MM is doing an uncalled for service for his customers. And I'm proud to call myself a MM customer. :)

Sorry, I hope my rant/comparison made sense... PEACE, OUT! :squint:

Voting and speaking doesn't make you intelligent though. :) Let's keep the political opinions out of this so the mods don't lock this thread.

why does this have to get political?.....do people want vacations?

With partners, I own a small contracting business. I deal with the large corporate giants and the the little owner/operator.

Prior to 25 years ago the "Contract" was drawn up on a cocktail napkin in the local watering hole and there were few if any disagreements when the contract was completed. The customers memory, understanding of the job at hand and expectations were known at the time of the contract. Very few of these "contracts" went south.

Today every job needs the assistance of lawyers and labor attorneys along with a very detailed knowledge of the lien laws, bankruptcy laws and court proceedings.

I do not know where the whole process went awry but it is everywhere. Customers wanting something for nothing and then complaining about payment and some fantasy warranty for what they do get. The Seller (or Contractor) also has his faults and there are more unethical sellers than ever.

I would hope I do not fall into one of the "scammer" categories but I could thru my cynicism.

Phil don't be modest, we know you run Vegas. :)

To add a note of fun.........................I did not tell you what I was contracting did I:uhh::uzi:

Oh...I guess you didn't.:uhh:

It makes me happy to see you recognize my reading & comprehension skills. I, too, am sure you entirely understood the half serious tone of my post.



My favorite gem: Opinions are like assholes: everybody has one, they all stink, and the only one I care about is mine.



It is a damn fine day when we can agree to not give a shit.

Oh, the irony.

Is it cloudy in Phoenix this week or just that time of the month? You guys are quite the cranky pants this week. :)

Its beautiful here.
But just look at the content of the first post and the crankiness should be pretty well self-explained.