RX8 Restoration (long)
01-29-2013, 02:45 PM
#26
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Small update.
Car starts on the first crank when warm, even with the older starter, 19,000 mile coil packs and a near flat battery. I'd say success, as previously the car required an Optima Red Top, 2 stroke oil in the LIM and about 30 seconds of cranking to start.
The CEL illuminated is for "lost contact with TCM" as I'm using the A/T PCM to troubleshoot the car while I (still) wait on tires. I tried plugging in the TCM, which worked to remove the "lost contact with TCM" DTC I was getting... but when I did that, I got 6 codes, all related to the auto trans. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and either roll up to Mazda and see if they can reprogram my JDM PCM or I'll have to buy an access port.
Ran into 2 issues with the pedals, 1 with the brake light switch (brake lights always on) and 1 with the clutch start switch (wouldn't crank).
These switches are self adjusting in that on the initial install into the bracket, the second you hit them with any kind of pressure, they ratchet down into place. Mazda FSM says to replace these if you do any work on the pedal assembly, or if you accidentally compress one all the way down. I figured if I was going to have to get new ones anyways, I had nothing to lose by just pulling the plunger out as far as I could. So I did. On both. And it worked. So no need to tape / glue / otherwise adhere a washer / nut to the contact surfaces of these switches. Just pull the plunger all the way out and DON'T TOUCH IT until you install it into your pedal assembly. MAKE SURE YOU BLEED THE CLUTCH before you install these things, otherwise you'll have to do this again. On the first press of the pedal (on the clutch) it will auto-adjust itself. On the initial install on the brake switch, it'll adjust itself and bingo, you're done. No need to muck about with adhesives or washers or anything.
Random notes:
A bonus of having the UK instrument cluster, aside from the correct tach and no A/T garbage, is that these cars didn't come with TPMS... so no TPMS idiot light flashing in my face, despite the fact that I only have 2 wheels on the car right now (the other 2 are awaiting tires... and are in the trunk). There's also no seatbelt chime. Not sure how I disabled that... but whatever. Must have something to do with the dash.
Car goes into gear fine, though the throw out bearing is a bit noisy. Probably should have replaced that when I had the chance. Either way, it goes into gear smoooooooth as butter. Gotta love that, so my one-man bleeding of the clutch actually worked.
Once the tires arrive, I'll have to take it on a road test. I'll probably end up changing the coil packs, too. I was originally intending to use the JDM PCM, and those things don't take too kindly to non-Mazda branded coils (misfires a'plenty, even when there aren't any). Since I'm using the USDM PCM for a while, when I get around to it, I'll toss the brand new AutoZone coils in and see how she feels.
As always, keep asking questions either on this thread or via PM.
Now... anyone know where I can pick up 2x 245/40/18 Continental Extreme Contact DW's on the cheap? heh heh.
Cheers
Ryan
Car starts on the first crank when warm, even with the older starter, 19,000 mile coil packs and a near flat battery. I'd say success, as previously the car required an Optima Red Top, 2 stroke oil in the LIM and about 30 seconds of cranking to start.
The CEL illuminated is for "lost contact with TCM" as I'm using the A/T PCM to troubleshoot the car while I (still) wait on tires. I tried plugging in the TCM, which worked to remove the "lost contact with TCM" DTC I was getting... but when I did that, I got 6 codes, all related to the auto trans. I think I'm going to have to bite the bullet and either roll up to Mazda and see if they can reprogram my JDM PCM or I'll have to buy an access port.
Ran into 2 issues with the pedals, 1 with the brake light switch (brake lights always on) and 1 with the clutch start switch (wouldn't crank).
These switches are self adjusting in that on the initial install into the bracket, the second you hit them with any kind of pressure, they ratchet down into place. Mazda FSM says to replace these if you do any work on the pedal assembly, or if you accidentally compress one all the way down. I figured if I was going to have to get new ones anyways, I had nothing to lose by just pulling the plunger out as far as I could. So I did. On both. And it worked. So no need to tape / glue / otherwise adhere a washer / nut to the contact surfaces of these switches. Just pull the plunger all the way out and DON'T TOUCH IT until you install it into your pedal assembly. MAKE SURE YOU BLEED THE CLUTCH before you install these things, otherwise you'll have to do this again. On the first press of the pedal (on the clutch) it will auto-adjust itself. On the initial install on the brake switch, it'll adjust itself and bingo, you're done. No need to muck about with adhesives or washers or anything.
Random notes:
A bonus of having the UK instrument cluster, aside from the correct tach and no A/T garbage, is that these cars didn't come with TPMS... so no TPMS idiot light flashing in my face, despite the fact that I only have 2 wheels on the car right now (the other 2 are awaiting tires... and are in the trunk). There's also no seatbelt chime. Not sure how I disabled that... but whatever. Must have something to do with the dash.
Car goes into gear fine, though the throw out bearing is a bit noisy. Probably should have replaced that when I had the chance. Either way, it goes into gear smoooooooth as butter. Gotta love that, so my one-man bleeding of the clutch actually worked.
Once the tires arrive, I'll have to take it on a road test. I'll probably end up changing the coil packs, too. I was originally intending to use the JDM PCM, and those things don't take too kindly to non-Mazda branded coils (misfires a'plenty, even when there aren't any). Since I'm using the USDM PCM for a while, when I get around to it, I'll toss the brand new AutoZone coils in and see how she feels.
As always, keep asking questions either on this thread or via PM.
Now... anyone know where I can pick up 2x 245/40/18 Continental Extreme Contact DW's on the cheap? heh heh.
Cheers
Ryan
01-29-2013, 02:58 PM
#27
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Just one more post for pics. I'll edit this when I get the video I took up and on the youtubes.
And yeah, I'm using the Razo shift **** that came with the transmission, not the EU/J DM standard power5 M/T **** for now. This is the wife's "learn to drive a stick" car, and she likes the Razo **** better, for whatever reason.
Ordered a battery cover from Tasca... on the 23rd. Stilllll waiting on that piece. But for everyone on here trying to hock their used battery cover for $50+, you can get it from Tasca for $23 brand spankin' new. Just sayin.
Other than that, until my tires magically appear, I'm pretty much out of things to talk about.
And yeah, I'm using the Razo shift **** that came with the transmission, not the EU/J DM standard power5 M/T **** for now. This is the wife's "learn to drive a stick" car, and she likes the Razo **** better, for whatever reason.
Ordered a battery cover from Tasca... on the 23rd. Stilllll waiting on that piece. But for everyone on here trying to hock their used battery cover for $50+, you can get it from Tasca for $23 brand spankin' new. Just sayin.
Other than that, until my tires magically appear, I'm pretty much out of things to talk about.
01-29-2013, 06:05 PM
#28
Does not having the TCM plugged in force limp mode? when it is plugged in does it force limp mode? dumb-ish questions but worth asking in a relevant thread.
Also, mazda should be able to reprogram your keys to the JDM PCM.. SHOULD. And supposedly, the ABS module (if you have DSC/TCS) should reprogram itself after several drive cycles.. if not im sure the dealer can fix it.
Goodluck and looking forward to more news!
-Ryuu
Also, mazda should be able to reprogram your keys to the JDM PCM.. SHOULD. And supposedly, the ABS module (if you have DSC/TCS) should reprogram itself after several drive cycles.. if not im sure the dealer can fix it.
Goodluck and looking forward to more news!
-Ryuu
01-29-2013, 07:19 PM
#29
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Great question. What are the indicators of limp mode? The car is still immobile without front tires so I can't test it out. Is there anything I can look for at idle, stopped and parked in my garage?
01-29-2013, 08:40 PM
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I can rev the car until it beeps at me in neutral, and idle is tabletop smooth at 750rpm at operating temperature with the TCM removed. No idea how it's going to react to input from the VSS, but stationary the car reacts how I would expect it to react.
01-30-2013, 09:45 AM
#33
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Yeah, it starts and runs great with the A/T PCM and without the TCM. Just that damn check engine light, despite the fact that I haven't given it any drive cycles to learn the fuel trims and I'm running old-as-hell coils, the thing idles like glass.
Tires are inbound, should be mounted and balanced next week... I'll post back then.
Tires are inbound, should be mounted and balanced next week... I'll post back then.
01-31-2013, 12:00 PM
#34
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Dead end. I've hit a dead end with the Mazda dealer up the road from me. I went back up there last night and asked them if they could reprogram via WDS my JDM PCM to read the correct VIN, and work with the immobilizer and they said they couldn't. They wouldn't even pass the question on to the tech, they just spat back some garbage about liability and that my JDM PCM might break their computer (he didn't call it WDS, he called it something else I wasn't familiar with... a new WDS maybe?).
ANYWAYS, does anyone have any ideas as to how I can force my A/T PCM to mask the CEL for TCM communication error? I know the default answer is "Get an Access Port and pay someone to build you a ROM that masks the A/T related CEL's".
I guess I'm spoiled by Subaru and being able to use ROMRaider and ECUFlash to extract, modify and re-flash for free.
I'm going to cross post this into the tuning forum, but I was just curious if anyone on here who's subscribed to the thread, or who reads it can point me in the right direction?
Thanks
ANYWAYS, does anyone have any ideas as to how I can force my A/T PCM to mask the CEL for TCM communication error? I know the default answer is "Get an Access Port and pay someone to build you a ROM that masks the A/T related CEL's".
I guess I'm spoiled by Subaru and being able to use ROMRaider and ECUFlash to extract, modify and re-flash for free.
I'm going to cross post this into the tuning forum, but I was just curious if anyone on here who's subscribed to the thread, or who reads it can point me in the right direction?
Thanks
01-31-2013, 07:02 PM
#35
weeeeeeeeee
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They did change the whole WDS name thing recently.
Get this baby on the road with that U0101 active just verify drivability.
Assuming you're not in limp mode, drop the $$$ for an AP... just be sure you can get a copy of Race first.. consumer version is married to your AP's serial # and must match MY and drivetrain of your 8. In your case this sounds like USDM MY 2005 4AT.
Suppress that U0101 and drive it like you stole it.
What a great thread... I'd seen it bubble up over the past couple days but hadn't taken the time to read it... thanks 1000 times for the PM.
Shell
Get this baby on the road with that U0101 active just verify drivability.
Assuming you're not in limp mode, drop the $$$ for an AP... just be sure you can get a copy of Race first.. consumer version is married to your AP's serial # and must match MY and drivetrain of your 8. In your case this sounds like USDM MY 2005 4AT.
Suppress that U0101 and drive it like you stole it.
What a great thread... I'd seen it bubble up over the past couple days but hadn't taken the time to read it... thanks 1000 times for the PM.
Shell
01-31-2013, 08:19 PM
#36
all they need to do is connect the pcm to whatever they call their unit to have the key programmed to the pcm. If anything try another dealership. I wouldnt worry about the VIN unless you absolutely must due to them checking during emissions or something as this is expected when you do a swap..
As I said in my last PM... if the PCM has no idea the difference between neutral and being in gear, it could very easy stall out, run rough, or possibly go really rich or lean. If you have a android phone, get a bluetooth OBDII adapter and get the torque app.. monitor afr's and everything while you drive so if something gets outside safe limits you can set an alarm to go off so you could stop and carefully return to your property.
ShellDude, I have done quite a lot of research on this topic myself.. I am quite sure this can be done with patience and determination. I didn't have the budget to complete this "daunting" task, but I have been working towards it little-by-little. McKennaR simply beat me to the task. It is possible that we can help and bring this "dream" for many into an achievable reality!
As I said in my last PM... if the PCM has no idea the difference between neutral and being in gear, it could very easy stall out, run rough, or possibly go really rich or lean. If you have a android phone, get a bluetooth OBDII adapter and get the torque app.. monitor afr's and everything while you drive so if something gets outside safe limits you can set an alarm to go off so you could stop and carefully return to your property.
ShellDude, I have done quite a lot of research on this topic myself.. I am quite sure this can be done with patience and determination. I didn't have the budget to complete this "daunting" task, but I have been working towards it little-by-little. McKennaR simply beat me to the task. It is possible that we can help and bring this "dream" for many into an achievable reality!
02-01-2013, 06:49 AM
#37
weeeeeeeeee
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I swear I'll follow suit if we can sufficiently "dumb this down. Hell there'd be no reason we couldn't drop a 6MT trans in... But I really like 5MT route captured here.
I too am curious how things like overrun will react but having gone thru similar with my adaptronic piggy back it still sounds doable.
I too am curious how things like overrun will react but having gone thru similar with my adaptronic piggy back it still sounds doable.
02-01-2013, 07:33 AM
#38
Here is some quoted text from messages McKennaR and I were exchanging.. Again I am no expert or genius when it comes to our car, I am simply exhausting every possibility as being reality so we could be prepared in the event a scenario does occur..
From my experience with Bosch K/LH Jetronic & Motronic up to 4.4, MoTeC and Haltech EMS and their interaction with transmission control modules, the engine management bases its calculations on engine load, throttle position, ECT, EGT, AFR's (etc) and not which gear the TCM tells the PCM that it's in. But those are all pre-CAN systems, and some auto trans cars if they think they're in neutral they'll limit revs and fuel delivery / engine load. I'll have to get one of my buddies on the phone who is my old ASE instructor and see what he has to say.
On that same vein, I've talked to Rotary.Resurrection for a bit about when he used a 4 port A/T PCM in his 6 port M/T car and aside from the 4000 RPM rev limit he imposed on his own and the CELs for no TCM and missing actuators, it ran and drove fine...
But of course this is all just conjecture until the tires come in.
Ryan
well remember, the tcm tells the pcm when the car is in gear, reverse, etc.. and from my understanding some of the actuators on our engines dont engage when in neutral (however i could be wrong about that).. i mean, why else would the MT pcm have inputs for neutral? its not for starting the car since that is controlled by the starter switch on the clutch (unless bypassed). My concern would be of rich/lean occurrences because of insufficient/excessive air entering the engine because of intake ports failing to open (assuming they do not).
Just looking out bro
However being that the engine is the 4 port MT engine wiring harness, it does send a neutral signal to the pcm through the engine harness (essentially bypassing the tcm).. so again only assuming, it is possible that the 4 port AT PCM can recognize that neutral signal and know the difference.
McKennar, could you check if your reverse lights come on with the AT pcm installed? Thanks
If this swap can work with the AT pcm, then I should have it completed by April the latest..
Originally Posted by Xero Ryuu
Originally Posted by McKennaR
Originally Posted by Xero Ryuu
Well if the PCM has no idea the difference between neutral and being in gear, it could very easy stall out, run rough, or possibly go really rich or lean. If you have a android phone, get a bluetooth OBDII adapter and get the torque app.. monitor afr's and everything while you drive so if something gets outside safe limits you can set an alarm to go off so you could stop and carefully return to your property.
You could simply buy a cobb and mask the CEL yourself.. easy setting to do IIRC.
You could simply buy a cobb and mask the CEL yourself.. easy setting to do IIRC.
On that same vein, I've talked to Rotary.Resurrection for a bit about when he used a 4 port A/T PCM in his 6 port M/T car and aside from the 4000 RPM rev limit he imposed on his own and the CELs for no TCM and missing actuators, it ran and drove fine...
But of course this is all just conjecture until the tires come in.
Ryan
Just looking out bro
McKennar, could you check if your reverse lights come on with the AT pcm installed? Thanks
If this swap can work with the AT pcm, then I should have it completed by April the latest..
Last edited by Ricky SE3P; 02-01-2013 at 07:50 PM.
02-01-2013, 09:08 AM
#39
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Yes, reverse lights work with A/T PCM installed.
With respect to the neutral safety switch input I'm not getting a CEL for not having it, so I assume the pins for the neutral switch input to the A/T PCM are the same as they are on the M/T PCM.
With respect to the neutral safety switch input I'm not getting a CEL for not having it, so I assume the pins for the neutral switch input to the A/T PCM are the same as they are on the M/T PCM.
Last edited by McKennaR; 02-01-2013 at 09:22 AM.
02-01-2013, 12:45 PM
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Interesting, I just noticed that the JDM intake accordion has a larger resonator (muffler?) than the USDM one. Not sure why this is, pics attached. JDM resonator box thing on the left, USDM on the right.
Embedded below is a video of me free-revving the car in neutral. Note the CEL still illuminated, that's the TCM communication error light.
Disregard the rambling narration and try to focus on the tach and the sounds.
Embedded below is a video of me free-revving the car in neutral. Note the CEL still illuminated, that's the TCM communication error light.
Disregard the rambling narration and try to focus on the tach and the sounds.
02-02-2013, 10:57 AM
#41
weeeeeeeeee
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get some tires on that thing man! the suspense is killing me!
Regarding detection of in gear, it's used for silly stuff like open/closed loop idle, etc. I can't think of anything from a load perspective that would get in the way. Overrun should work just fine as is. Worst case there is that it would be ignored which would lead to a rich condition... not ideal but far better than going lean.
Regarding detection of in gear, it's used for silly stuff like open/closed loop idle, etc. I can't think of anything from a load perspective that would get in the way. Overrun should work just fine as is. Worst case there is that it would be ignored which would lead to a rich condition... not ideal but far better than going lean.
Last edited by ShellDude; 02-02-2013 at 11:02 AM.
02-02-2013, 11:28 AM
#42
so youre saying i should start looking for a MT? lol and you are aware that the 4 port MT harness and 6 port MT harness are nearly identical, only major difference (that I am aware of) is that the 6 port MT's harness has the wires for the additional injectors, intake port, and vfad actuator.. when you go view the engine wiring diagrams they specify that the parts of the wiring diagram within the dotted-line boxes are for the 6-port "high power" engine..
heres another diagram, anything labeled with a *3 is for the 6 port motor.. plug 3 on the pcm (3A-3Z) is solely for the extra ports and injectors, which would be the plug that RotaryRessurection talks about in his swap thread that doesnt have a place to go in the 4 port pcm!
PCM INSPECTION
so we could technically use a 6 port harness and it will work just fine for this swap. we grab a 6 speed transmission, and IF we really want to we change out the gauge cluster. I would but that wouldnt be serious priority for me.
Get ready to swap ShellDude
edit: this is assuming of course the pcm doesnt go into limp mode because of the U0101..
heres another diagram, anything labeled with a *3 is for the 6 port motor.. plug 3 on the pcm (3A-3Z) is solely for the extra ports and injectors, which would be the plug that RotaryRessurection talks about in his swap thread that doesnt have a place to go in the 4 port pcm!
PCM INSPECTION
so we could technically use a 6 port harness and it will work just fine for this swap. we grab a 6 speed transmission, and IF we really want to we change out the gauge cluster. I would but that wouldnt be serious priority for me.
Get ready to swap ShellDude
edit: this is assuming of course the pcm doesnt go into limp mode because of the U0101..
Last edited by Ricky SE3P; 02-02-2013 at 11:31 AM.
02-02-2013, 11:46 AM
#43
weeeeeeeeee
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There is a spool missing from the 4 port ECU. I can track down the bus / plug # but it looks RR's got it. With the Adaptronic I have a missing connector going into and out of it. Want to say its a 8-9 wires, related to the extra injectors and APV. There might be an in-gear wire or something similar missing too.
I need to go back and re-read the first page in more detail as I'm not even sure why we need the 6MT harness. I understand why McKennaR needs the 5MT one ... McKennaR, did you end up with an extra connector from the harness going into your ECU?
Another way to skin it is ask how many ports the JDM 4 port ECU has?
I need to go back and re-read the first page in more detail as I'm not even sure why we need the 6MT harness. I understand why McKennaR needs the 5MT one ... McKennaR, did you end up with an extra connector from the harness going into your ECU?
Another way to skin it is ask how many ports the JDM 4 port ECU has?
Last edited by ShellDude; 02-02-2013 at 11:50 AM.
02-02-2013, 11:49 AM
#44
weeeeeeeeee
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PCM INSPECTION
Yup, that's the one I used while wiring up my Adaptronic.
Code:
3A Fuel injector (FP2) control*3 Fuel injector (FP2) (See Inspection Using An Oscilloscope (Reference).) • Fuel injector • Related wiring harnesses -*4 - 3B APV opening angle*3 APV motor (APV position sensor) High engine speed 1.5 or less • APV position sensor • Related wiring harnesses Idling 1.5 or more -*4 - 3C - 3D Fuel injector (RP2) control *3 Fuel injector (RP2) (See Inspection Using An Oscilloscope (Reference).) • Fuel injector • Related wiring harnesses -*4 - 3E - 3F - 3G APV motor control (+)*3 APV motor (See Inspection Using An Oscilloscope (Reference).) • APV motor • Related wiring harnesses -*4 - 3H - 3I - 3J APV motor control (-)*3 APV motor (See Inspection Using An Oscilloscope (Reference).) • APV motor • Related wiring harnesses -*4
Last edited by ShellDude; 02-02-2013 at 12:07 PM.
My guess is the 5MT and 4AT harnesses are identical.
02-02-2013, 04:30 PM
#48
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I can confirm the 4A/T and 5M/T harnesses are different on the transmission-end. The 4A/T harness plugs into the VSS, "turbine sensor" and the transmission range switch bolted to the side of the transmission, as shown in the pictures below. I think one of those plugs is for the rear O2 sensor as well.
As far as extra connectors, I had none anywhere on the car except for the 2 on the inside of the car where the TCM used to be.
Also pictured is the JDM 4 port PCM, which is literally plug-n-play with both the A/T and M/T harnesses. I'm sure there are a few extra pins in the A/T PCM that communicate with the TCM, but the plugs and locations of said plugs are identical between 4 port A/T and 4 port M/T PCM's.
I seriously don't know why I chunked the old tires before getting new ones. I never do that. This is driving me nuts, too.
Cheers
Ryan
As far as extra connectors, I had none anywhere on the car except for the 2 on the inside of the car where the TCM used to be.
Also pictured is the JDM 4 port PCM, which is literally plug-n-play with both the A/T and M/T harnesses. I'm sure there are a few extra pins in the A/T PCM that communicate with the TCM, but the plugs and locations of said plugs are identical between 4 port A/T and 4 port M/T PCM's.
I seriously don't know why I chunked the old tires before getting new ones. I never do that. This is driving me nuts, too.
Cheers
Ryan
Last edited by McKennaR; 02-02-2013 at 04:32 PM.
02-02-2013, 04:41 PM
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Oh and re: swapping gauge clusters, it would drive me insane if I put in a 6 port m/t cluster that shows a 9k redline but not being able to touch it due to our 2 port handicap. Hence the UK standard power 5 m/t gauge cluster I bought. Best of both worlds. A redline I can hit, and no pesky A/T garbage taking up space. Plus, it cost less than a USDM 6 port M/T cluster, even paying the ~$50 shipping.
02-02-2013, 08:43 PM
#50
weeeeeeeeee
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That plugged middle section of the back of your ECU is where that "3" harness goes on the 6MT. I've never traced, nor researched, the harness leads between the engine and transmission. I guess the complexity of splicing / rerouting weighed against a full swap would be a deciding factor. I also wonder what else is missing from the US 4 port motor. I haven't considered potential differences between the flywheel and clutch either.
This is all got to be documented already in some fashion so forgive me if I'm behind "light reading" wise.
McKennaR, is the means in which you procured the JDM motor and harness accessible to the masses or a result of a unique position you're in?
This is all got to be documented already in some fashion so forgive me if I'm behind "light reading" wise.
McKennaR, is the means in which you procured the JDM motor and harness accessible to the masses or a result of a unique position you're in?
Last edited by ShellDude; 02-02-2013 at 08:45 PM.
