(CLOSED) CZ Stage 1 Group Buy
02-15-2004, 08:45 AM
#51
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I happen to agree with Racer X-8 on this, and neither of us just fell off the turnip wagon, so you "young'uns" listen up.
In addition, I have been a Manufacturer's Representative for over 25 years, and have never heard of such a thing as "secondary commission" as described above.
The administrator is assuming the position of both a publisher selling advertising, and a Rep or Broker collecting commision from sales of his advertisers; except instead of collecting the commission from the manufacturer, he wants to collect from the buyer. Under these circumstances, the administrator must, then, provide a service in keeping with his "Agency" status and must participate in ALL of the risk associated with ANY transaction involving "his" advertisers which eminates from this site (not just group buys).
None of the above is evident in what is described here, and the words that come to mind are "cherry-picking", "kick-back", and "double-dipping".
Cooperative buying has been around for centuries. In this particular case, epitrochoid is simply trying to minimize his own cost. In so doing, he has solicited like-minded folks in order to take advantage of quantity-sensitive pricing. And he is doing it with little, or no, compensation.
Having said all of that, either this site is free to the user or it is not. If the Administrator wants to charge for his participation, then I think that it should be a two-way street. And, if I were an advertiser, I would be wondering how many sales I've lost.
In addition, I have been a Manufacturer's Representative for over 25 years, and have never heard of such a thing as "secondary commission" as described above.
The administrator is assuming the position of both a publisher selling advertising, and a Rep or Broker collecting commision from sales of his advertisers; except instead of collecting the commission from the manufacturer, he wants to collect from the buyer. Under these circumstances, the administrator must, then, provide a service in keeping with his "Agency" status and must participate in ALL of the risk associated with ANY transaction involving "his" advertisers which eminates from this site (not just group buys).
None of the above is evident in what is described here, and the words that come to mind are "cherry-picking", "kick-back", and "double-dipping".
Cooperative buying has been around for centuries. In this particular case, epitrochoid is simply trying to minimize his own cost. In so doing, he has solicited like-minded folks in order to take advantage of quantity-sensitive pricing. And he is doing it with little, or no, compensation.
Having said all of that, either this site is free to the user or it is not. If the Administrator wants to charge for his participation, then I think that it should be a two-way street. And, if I were an advertiser, I would be wondering how many sales I've lost.
02-15-2004, 12:15 PM
#52
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The administration isn't looking to charge me an advertising fee and take a commission off every sale I make. In essence, I am a vendor using the site he pays for to "make money", and I use that term loosely because he really has no way of knowing for sure if I'm just breaking even or making a fortune. The fact that it's a group buy makes no difference to him. Since I am claiming this to be a non-profit operation, he's agreed to work out a "per sale" system so that I don't end up having to cover advertising overhead.
Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:
-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.
The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.
So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.
BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P
Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:
-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.
The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.
So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.
BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P
02-16-2004, 06:01 PM
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Originally posted by epitrochoid
i'll be in touch with everyone in a week or two
i'll be in touch with everyone in a week or two
If the legalities of this "group buy/sell" is worked out soon, I want in on the next go-round...my email is: katnkevin2001@yahoo.com
Kevin
02-16-2004, 06:03 PM
#54
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there's a second CZ stage 1 GB in progress now, I can provide references if you'd like. If you're talking about the SP2, I'm still working with forum administration on that.
PM or email me though, it's easier for me to keep track of names.
brianc@*nospam*tampabay.rr.com
take out the nospam
PM or email me though, it's easier for me to keep track of names.
brianc@*nospam*tampabay.rr.com
take out the nospam
02-17-2004, 12:05 AM
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If I did a stage two, it would likely be for the computer only. People want different options for the midpipe/cat so it would be too hard to organize 10 buyers. If I feel like there's enough interest I'll organize one.
02-17-2004, 05:42 AM
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Originally posted by epitrochoid
The administration isn't looking to charge me an advertising fee and take a commission off every sale I make. In essence, I am a vendor using the site he pays for to "make money", and I use that term loosely because he really has no way of knowing for sure if I'm just breaking even or making a fortune. The fact that it's a group buy makes no difference to him. Since I am claiming this to be a non-profit operation, he's agreed to work out a "per sale" system so that I don't end up having to cover advertising overhead.
Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:
-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.
The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.
So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.
BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P
The administration isn't looking to charge me an advertising fee and take a commission off every sale I make. In essence, I am a vendor using the site he pays for to "make money", and I use that term loosely because he really has no way of knowing for sure if I'm just breaking even or making a fortune. The fact that it's a group buy makes no difference to him. Since I am claiming this to be a non-profit operation, he's agreed to work out a "per sale" system so that I don't end up having to cover advertising overhead.
Let use this scenario for example, because I'm afraid you guys don't understand what going on completely:
-The sites collectively cost $1500 a month
-There are 15 advertisers each paying $100 a month for rotating banners
-Through terminated contracts, or lower demanded advertising rates, the administration looses $200 per month, or 2 equivalent advertisers due to conflicts with group buys.
-Administration will charge a percentage on each GB sale to raise the $200 to cover for the lost income from advertisers.
The only people engaging in poor business are the advertisers themselves. I know that they can get better prices than I can from distributors, and through a group sale, they can effectively elimate the need to cover overhead, as the GB organizer is doing all the work. No haggling with customers, no need to advertise, they just get their money and out the door goes the goods. However, they are not willing to do that. Even in my zero profit scenario, they could undercut me by a slight percentage and still turn a material profit.
So it's not the forum administration we need to be after, it's the advertisers. Ryan is just doing his job and protecting those that pay him to do what he does. If another nonpaying vendor came in, and posted prices that undercut all the advertisers, they would be accessing the same medium that others pay for, for free, and in a way it's unfair.
BTW: my thread has officially been jacked :P
D
02-19-2004, 11:38 PM
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Digisan, I fail to see what you see.
We each paid epitrochoid very little more than his cost. I know he paid CZ $5000 for 10 stage 1's. With shipping, if he earns any kind of profit from us, it'll be chump change. Not near what it's worth to deal with the hassle. That's what I'm seeing. I'm very happy with the deal. If he's asking for a bit more to do it again, I can see why.
My question is why is CZ giving such a large price break at such a small quantity as 10 units? But that's his decision that he made, and the stage 1 group buys are only accepting what CZ is offering to anybody who wants it.
I really think that's the thing that you and a bunch of others can't accept, that CZ is selling them at $500 each for 10 units. But he is, and that's not epitrochoid's nor my fault, if there's any fault in that at all.
We each paid epitrochoid very little more than his cost. I know he paid CZ $5000 for 10 stage 1's. With shipping, if he earns any kind of profit from us, it'll be chump change. Not near what it's worth to deal with the hassle. That's what I'm seeing. I'm very happy with the deal. If he's asking for a bit more to do it again, I can see why.
My question is why is CZ giving such a large price break at such a small quantity as 10 units? But that's his decision that he made, and the stage 1 group buys are only accepting what CZ is offering to anybody who wants it.
I really think that's the thing that you and a bunch of others can't accept, that CZ is selling them at $500 each for 10 units. But he is, and that's not epitrochoid's nor my fault, if there's any fault in that at all.
Last edited by Racer X-8; 02-21-2004 at 10:40 PM.
04-03-2004, 06:33 AM
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* BUMP *
OK, I've been watching loads of traffic about the CZ Stage 1/2 group buy #2...any update about for us intrepid FIRST epitrochoid-group-buy folks? I think a regular status message on our order shouldn't be too much to ask for at this point.
-jd.
OK, I've been watching loads of traffic about the CZ Stage 1/2 group buy #2...any update about for us intrepid FIRST epitrochoid-group-buy folks? I think a regular status message on our order shouldn't be too much to ask for at this point.
-jd.
04-03-2004, 11:28 AM
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I've just been emailing people with updates as they ask for them, I've been real busy with school lately.
But anyway, I spoke with Maurice Thursday and he said it's going to be about another week. I know this is like the 4th time he's pushed our ship date back, but consider it from his POV. He doesn't want to ship out a product that doesn't work with the latest PCM calibrations from Mazda, so he's got to stay on top of that. Everyone that's buying direct from him is expierencing these delays as well, so unfotunately it's just the nature of the game.
Check your email often in the next few days, as I'm just going to email you updates.
If you have any more questions give me a call, you should have my number in an old email.
But anyway, I spoke with Maurice Thursday and he said it's going to be about another week. I know this is like the 4th time he's pushed our ship date back, but consider it from his POV. He doesn't want to ship out a product that doesn't work with the latest PCM calibrations from Mazda, so he's got to stay on top of that. Everyone that's buying direct from him is expierencing these delays as well, so unfotunately it's just the nature of the game.
Check your email often in the next few days, as I'm just going to email you updates.
If you have any more questions give me a call, you should have my number in an old email.
04-04-2004, 10:05 AM
#62
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Epitrochoid,
I don't think you caught the nuance of my post: I don't think we should be "nagging" you with individual emails that you should reply to. Rather, I would expect to see a regular (weekly) status message on our order, if, as is our case, the order has been delayed waaaay beyond everyone's expectations. After all, you've handled a substantial chuck of cash on our behalf, so I think it's reasonable for us to be informed about what you do (or even don't) know regarding our purchase.
The delays are 100% reasonable, and in our case fortunate (that we get the latest/best product).
I'm just asking that we start hearing something -- anything -- regularly. Any communication will go a long way towards calming buyers that are suffering long-delayed gratification. I think that's a lesson we learned from Mazda with the pre-orders: long delays + no information => drives us crazy! Just keep us informed, and we'll wait much more comfortably.
I definitely appreciate your efforts! This is meant as a suggestion, born of my own pre-order experience with Mazda. Oh, and definitely my own $0.02 worth
Cheers,
-jd.
I don't think you caught the nuance of my post: I don't think we should be "nagging" you with individual emails that you should reply to. Rather, I would expect to see a regular (weekly) status message on our order, if, as is our case, the order has been delayed waaaay beyond everyone's expectations. After all, you've handled a substantial chuck of cash on our behalf, so I think it's reasonable for us to be informed about what you do (or even don't) know regarding our purchase.
The delays are 100% reasonable, and in our case fortunate (that we get the latest/best product).
I'm just asking that we start hearing something -- anything -- regularly. Any communication will go a long way towards calming buyers that are suffering long-delayed gratification. I think that's a lesson we learned from Mazda with the pre-orders: long delays + no information => drives us crazy! Just keep us informed, and we'll wait much more comfortably.
I definitely appreciate your efforts! This is meant as a suggestion, born of my own pre-order experience with Mazda. Oh, and definitely my own $0.02 worth
Cheers,
-jd.
04-04-2004, 01:23 PM
#63
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I think Epitrochoid has done a fine job keeping us posted. Sure, we all are axiously awaiting our "box of power" but we need to be patient.
The choices are: Pay full price, wait and try to contact CZ who is VERY busy or Pay the discount, wait and have Epitrochoid keeps us up to date.
The choices are: Pay full price, wait and try to contact CZ who is VERY busy or Pay the discount, wait and have Epitrochoid keeps us up to date.
04-04-2004, 04:42 PM
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that's fair enough, *if* for some reason this drags on longer than expected, I can give you weekly updates via email. hopefully the next message I send out will be list of tracking numbers for everyone!
04-05-2004, 12:45 PM
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Aw, rats. I guess this means I won't be finding mine when I get home from work today.
Hey epitrochoid, about holding mine till I get back from my week of vacation... never mind... I'm back...
no offence to anyone, just,,, darn...
What's the latest? I got some catching-up to do... after work...
Hey epitrochoid, about holding mine till I get back from my week of vacation... never mind... I'm back...
no offence to anyone, just,,, darn...
What's the latest? I got some catching-up to do... after work...
04-05-2004, 12:55 PM
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Yeah, I know. I had your ship date on my calendar. The lastest from the man himself is that they're going out this week. I of course will let you know the instant I get a tracking number.
04-05-2004, 12:59 PM
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I'm not on your group buy but I have been waiting for CZ to ship me back my upgraded unit. I just want to corroborate epitrochoid statement by saying that I recieved email from CZ on Friday saying that he would probably be shipping Monday or Tuesday of this week.
04-06-2004, 09:35 AM
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Just for everyone's information regarding the first group buy of 10 units...
Earlier today on another thread I saw Canzoomer post a message that he has everything set with the Stage 1 & Stage 2 kits and they will start shipping them tomorrow 4/7. Hopefully the first GB (of 10 units) will be included in his shipments so expect to hear something within the next week from Epitro.
On a slightly different subject, he also mentioned on the same post that he found (unlike some other posts have mentioned) that the power was actually lower with the "L" flash.
Just an FYI. Check Canzoomer's latest post.
Earlier today on another thread I saw Canzoomer post a message that he has everything set with the Stage 1 & Stage 2 kits and they will start shipping them tomorrow 4/7. Hopefully the first GB (of 10 units) will be included in his shipments so expect to hear something within the next week from Epitro.
On a slightly different subject, he also mentioned on the same post that he found (unlike some other posts have mentioned) that the power was actually lower with the "L" flash.
Just an FYI. Check Canzoomer's latest post.
04-06-2004, 10:45 AM
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That makes sense about the gains being lower with 1.1 and the L flash. I am still on the K flash so I will see how the stage 1 runs with K + Typhoon + Borla. If it gives me problems I can always get flashed to "L." I am concerned about maybe going too lean seeing as I am in S. FL and I am already leaning the fuel with the intake, the exhaust, the humidity, and the heat. Hopefully I will not have to take out the intake but I may have to.
Look forward to an email from you Epitro!!!
Look forward to an email from you Epitro!!!
04-06-2004, 11:03 AM
#72
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I don't know about you guys, but I just got email from Graham saying they are processing my stuff, I should get it by thursday.. so epitrochoid, I suspect you'll be hearing something soon!
04-06-2004, 12:26 PM
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I sent my CZ unit in on 3/12 for upgrade. My upgrade was done within days, Just waiting for the new maps..
THey said they are shipping today and tommorrow.
THey said they are shipping today and tommorrow.
Originally posted by epitrochoid
when did you place your order guy?
im trying to see if you're before or after me in queue.
when did you place your order guy?
im trying to see if you're before or after me in queue.
04-06-2004, 01:26 PM
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well, I think the bottleneck is in the units themselves, not necessarily the upgrades. but if alot of units are soon to be being shipped, and ours is due to go this week, i think it's safe to say we should be getting ours soon!