Why are Gas Prices High and Oil at $90 a Barrel? One Answer Is Here.
02-09-2008, 01:07 PM
#101
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02-09-2008, 01:49 PM
#103
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Oil however is another matter. A steep decline in the dollar means that oil prices for Americans will go up, all else being equal - this reality may become more significant after next week's OPEC meeting where the subject of prices is sure to come up.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/2176...te-a-spectacle
03-10-2008, 11:20 AM
#104
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OK time to weigh in - and this thread's been silent for a while anyway. Here are some pertinent facts:
1. 30 years ago, when I first got interested in cars, my mom's Oldsmobile Vista-Cruiser weighted about 4,000 lbs, got 12 MPG on the highway, and went 0-60 in about 10.5 seconds. It was a mid-size, somewhat fast car for its time. (Horsepower figures don't compare, as the SAE methods have changed).
2. Today, I have an Infiniti FX35, it weighs about 4,100 lbs, has about the same amount of room inside as mom's Olds, gets 15 city/21 highway, and can go 0-60 in 6.7 seconds. It's a mid-size, somewhat fast car for its time.
My reading of the situation is that efficiency is greatly improved the 30 years. If there's a car out there the size of mine that's a lot slower, it probably gets great gas mileage. But in general, instead of doubling the mileage that we get, our vehicles are faster and probably get 35% better mileage pound-for-pund with better performance. While there are lots of less gas-thirsty choices, clearly a lot of Americans are buying the big, thirsty vehicles. I'm not saying this is bad. But it hasn't helped lower oil consumption, or it would have, but people drive further today.
A lot of individual choices have been made that clearly add up to lots of oil consumption. Suburbs that were just cornfields have been popping up for the last 30 years, and the people living in them, at least in the St. Louis region, the far-flung reaches of it, that is, don't seem to be afraid to drive the thirsty vehicles. A drive last summer between St. Louis and Springfield, MO., also revealed that the vast majority of travelers in Missouri are driving extended-cab pickups. None of this is bad so long as they don't complain when they are the victims of their own actions. I'm not complaining about my $50 fill-ups - I would just downsize my car before I blamed anyone else for something I chose myself.
If all these individuals made different choices, we could be using a LOT less oil as a nation. Everyone should go to the dealership and drive what they want and live where they want, but they should think for at least four seconds about the possibilities that might happen as a result of those decisions. People who don't give the future any thought are the ones we can fairly call "stupid."
I feel pretty confident that its not the oil companies raising prices, its supply and demand. But that's what the free-market is there to take care of, and its starting to do that now. If the price of gasoline stays up here or goes higher, a lot of the people who are currently driving the guzzlers and living far away from their jobs, etc., will just do what they have to do - get a more fuel efficient vehicle. Those vehicles exist, but they don't make you look quite as cool or macho. (However, none make you look as good as an RX-8)
I hope that the government doesn't intervene to increase supply - and I'm not sure that they can. So hopefully some people will just make different choices - and they always seem to do that only when their wallets scream at them!
1. 30 years ago, when I first got interested in cars, my mom's Oldsmobile Vista-Cruiser weighted about 4,000 lbs, got 12 MPG on the highway, and went 0-60 in about 10.5 seconds. It was a mid-size, somewhat fast car for its time. (Horsepower figures don't compare, as the SAE methods have changed).
2. Today, I have an Infiniti FX35, it weighs about 4,100 lbs, has about the same amount of room inside as mom's Olds, gets 15 city/21 highway, and can go 0-60 in 6.7 seconds. It's a mid-size, somewhat fast car for its time.
My reading of the situation is that efficiency is greatly improved the 30 years. If there's a car out there the size of mine that's a lot slower, it probably gets great gas mileage. But in general, instead of doubling the mileage that we get, our vehicles are faster and probably get 35% better mileage pound-for-pund with better performance. While there are lots of less gas-thirsty choices, clearly a lot of Americans are buying the big, thirsty vehicles. I'm not saying this is bad. But it hasn't helped lower oil consumption, or it would have, but people drive further today.
A lot of individual choices have been made that clearly add up to lots of oil consumption. Suburbs that were just cornfields have been popping up for the last 30 years, and the people living in them, at least in the St. Louis region, the far-flung reaches of it, that is, don't seem to be afraid to drive the thirsty vehicles. A drive last summer between St. Louis and Springfield, MO., also revealed that the vast majority of travelers in Missouri are driving extended-cab pickups. None of this is bad so long as they don't complain when they are the victims of their own actions. I'm not complaining about my $50 fill-ups - I would just downsize my car before I blamed anyone else for something I chose myself.
If all these individuals made different choices, we could be using a LOT less oil as a nation. Everyone should go to the dealership and drive what they want and live where they want, but they should think for at least four seconds about the possibilities that might happen as a result of those decisions. People who don't give the future any thought are the ones we can fairly call "stupid."
I feel pretty confident that its not the oil companies raising prices, its supply and demand. But that's what the free-market is there to take care of, and its starting to do that now. If the price of gasoline stays up here or goes higher, a lot of the people who are currently driving the guzzlers and living far away from their jobs, etc., will just do what they have to do - get a more fuel efficient vehicle. Those vehicles exist, but they don't make you look quite as cool or macho. (However, none make you look as good as an RX-8)
I hope that the government doesn't intervene to increase supply - and I'm not sure that they can. So hopefully some people will just make different choices - and they always seem to do that only when their wallets scream at them!
Last edited by myfuncar; 03-10-2008 at 11:23 AM.
03-10-2008, 11:58 AM
#105
If all these individuals made different choices, we could be using a LOT less oil as a nation. Everyone should go to the dealership and drive what they want and live where they want, but they should think for at least four seconds about the possibilities that might happen as a result of those decisions. People who don't give the future any thought are the ones we can fairly call "stupid."
I feel pretty confident that its not the oil companies raising prices, its supply and demand.
So hopefully some people will just make different choices - and they always seem to do that only when their wallets scream at them!
I feel pretty confident that its not the oil companies raising prices, its supply and demand.
So hopefully some people will just make different choices - and they always seem to do that only when their wallets scream at them!
I agree wholeheartedly. Supply and demand is exactly what is driving gasoline prices.
But we can take it further than personal transportation. People in the USA need to stop buying products and services made in China, India, and other overseas countries. We are fueling their ecconomies, and creating a demand for petroleum over there as a result.
If we cut back imports to a fraction of current levels, as well as drove fuel-efficient cars, we would see gas prices drop precipitously. OPEC would be gasping for breath.
03-10-2008, 11:58 AM
#106
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Politicians can not control the price of oil. Greedy investors can. Every time the government steps in to regulate or control oil prices, the only winner is the government. The rest of us lose. They make more money on oil and gas than the oil companies do! The war in Iraq has nothing to do with high prices. It's all government that is holding prices high. Through environmentalist pressure, oil companies have a hard time doing exploratory drilling. They are prohibited from tapping known sources. They are prohibited from building new refineries. The world demand is up. This affects prices huge and is only going to get worse. Americans can't solve the worlds problems and neither can our government. As demand rises sharply in China and India, and it is, demand and therefore prices will only get higher. No amount of government regulation can affect this in the slightest. All it would do is drive up prices at the pump for us.
The cold harsh truth is that the only way to not pay alot for gas is to stop using so much of it. This is hard for Americans to accept as we are addicted to heavy poor gas mileage vehicles. Save them for play cars. Drive more efficiently for everyday use. That's how you'll save gas money. The days of low gas prices are over. The value of the dollar is playing a role too but the main cause of high gas prices goes back to the simple rule of supply and demand. There is plenty of oil in the world and we'll never run out. I don't care what environmentalist tells you otherwise. They're idiots. The problem is that we can't refine it fast enough due to over regulation. Why regulate even more? Since we can't refine it fast enough, demand will only increase as reserve supply decreases and prices will continue to rise. We could never have another refinery fire, never have another hurricane, and the war could end tomorrow with peace in the middle east and gas prices would still not go down appreciably and only continue to increase in the long run. That's just the way it's going to be. We've had it far too good for far too long and have gotten spoiled by it. Now that we've lost it, we complain. Get used to it. Driving will never be cheap again. When we get alternatives to gas that are worth anything, environmentalists will again step in to close the door and government will again tax the hell out of it. They'd tax your air if they could figure out how to measure your usage!
The cold harsh truth is that the only way to not pay alot for gas is to stop using so much of it. This is hard for Americans to accept as we are addicted to heavy poor gas mileage vehicles. Save them for play cars. Drive more efficiently for everyday use. That's how you'll save gas money. The days of low gas prices are over. The value of the dollar is playing a role too but the main cause of high gas prices goes back to the simple rule of supply and demand. There is plenty of oil in the world and we'll never run out. I don't care what environmentalist tells you otherwise. They're idiots. The problem is that we can't refine it fast enough due to over regulation. Why regulate even more? Since we can't refine it fast enough, demand will only increase as reserve supply decreases and prices will continue to rise. We could never have another refinery fire, never have another hurricane, and the war could end tomorrow with peace in the middle east and gas prices would still not go down appreciably and only continue to increase in the long run. That's just the way it's going to be. We've had it far too good for far too long and have gotten spoiled by it. Now that we've lost it, we complain. Get used to it. Driving will never be cheap again. When we get alternatives to gas that are worth anything, environmentalists will again step in to close the door and government will again tax the hell out of it. They'd tax your air if they could figure out how to measure your usage!
03-10-2008, 02:25 PM
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Well now don't get all mad at the investors, their job is to be greedy, or else they're not investors, they're philanthopists. Investors supply the cash that businesses start and often run off of, which is how about 70% of the US has jobs.
The theories that I believe, and while they could be wrong, they seem to hold water, say that since price of oil is denominated in US Dollars and that currency is still heading down, the high price of oil is atrongly affected by that alone. Supply and demand also play a key role, to be sure, but things could slow down as our economy slows down. A recession always eases up on amount of oil used. They also say, and again, I think it makes sense, that oil futures tend to exaggerate the swings and right now we're swinging up pretty hard.
As for the Vista Cruisers, mom had two - a 70 (Almost a clone of the one in the 70's show) and then a '74, which is the one I refer to above.
The theories that I believe, and while they could be wrong, they seem to hold water, say that since price of oil is denominated in US Dollars and that currency is still heading down, the high price of oil is atrongly affected by that alone. Supply and demand also play a key role, to be sure, but things could slow down as our economy slows down. A recession always eases up on amount of oil used. They also say, and again, I think it makes sense, that oil futures tend to exaggerate the swings and right now we're swinging up pretty hard.
As for the Vista Cruisers, mom had two - a 70 (Almost a clone of the one in the 70's show) and then a '74, which is the one I refer to above.
03-10-2008, 03:33 PM
#110
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Well now don't get all mad at the investors, their job is to be greedy, or else they're not investors, they're philanthopists. Investors supply the cash that businesses start and often run off of, which is how about 70% of the US has jobs.
The theories that I believe, and while they could be wrong, they seem to hold water, say that since price of oil is denominated in US Dollars and that currency is still heading down, the high price of oil is atrongly affected by that alone. Supply and demand also play a key role, to be sure, but things could slow down as our economy slows down. A recession always eases up on amount of oil used. They also say, and again, I think it makes sense, that oil futures tend to exaggerate the swings and right now we're swinging up pretty hard.
As for the Vista Cruisers, mom had two - a 70 (Almost a clone of the one in the 70's show) and then a '74, which is the one I refer to above.
The theories that I believe, and while they could be wrong, they seem to hold water, say that since price of oil is denominated in US Dollars and that currency is still heading down, the high price of oil is atrongly affected by that alone. Supply and demand also play a key role, to be sure, but things could slow down as our economy slows down. A recession always eases up on amount of oil used. They also say, and again, I think it makes sense, that oil futures tend to exaggerate the swings and right now we're swinging up pretty hard.
As for the Vista Cruisers, mom had two - a 70 (Almost a clone of the one in the 70's show) and then a '74, which is the one I refer to above.
I don't have to be mad at investors to point out their greed affects the rest of us. It's true.
A recession won't change anything with the price of oil. How efficient the US becomes won't change the price of oil. The biggest problem is that China and India are technologically growing by leaps and bounds and their consumption is going up exponentially every year. Oil is world traded. It's arrogance that would have us believe that we solely control it's price. We play a small part just like everyone else that uses it.
03-10-2008, 03:48 PM
#111
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Why we pay more for gas....
In the mid 90s, the gas companies shut down refineries due to a gas glut, they could not make enough money refining gas; They FIXED that problem.
!!!!!!
!!!!!!
03-10-2008, 04:22 PM
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You're not categorically wrong, and as it turns out , I'm not all right, but note that the US does consume 25% of world oil production as of 2007. A 10% decrease in that would lop 2.5% off world demand. Not a huge change but it would be felt - it could at least move the speculation on oil prices, and hence the volatile trading, in the other direction.
03-10-2008, 04:31 PM
#114
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Actually the percentage that we consume is going to fall from a percentage standpoint no matter what. As I said, India and China are increasing their demand at an alarming rate. The more this happens, the less we'll have an effect on it.
03-10-2008, 04:47 PM
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With the price of crude oil at $108 US A BARREL , the oil producing countries are doing untold damage to the western economies helping towards a world wide recession.
The mess in IRAQ ,IRAN and the Middle East has not been finalized as yet the best is still too come
Cheers
Michael
The mess in IRAQ ,IRAN and the Middle East has not been finalized as yet the best is still too come
Cheers
Michael
03-10-2008, 06:24 PM
#118
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03-10-2008, 06:41 PM
#119
IYAOYAS
Gas prices have gone up 200% in four years. If this where a natural disaster, and I was standing on the street corner selling gas with a 200% mark up I would be arrested for price gouging. This administration's lack of positive action to help it's citizen's (other than the rich few) is proof enough that they have been bought and paid for. That's just my opinion on a very sore subject.
03-10-2008, 07:08 PM
#120
One Shot One Kill
it is not price gouging.. think about it. people will use gas, the demand is there, then the suppliers can sell for whatever the people that demands it would pay for it.
now, a way to "reduce" gas price artificially is to
1) take away demand (hybrid.. or nuke china/india... not realistic)
2) make sure supply exist, since if they just reduce supply, the price would go up (believe me, if USA don't actively settle down the middle east/opec/other places, our gas would be crazy right now)
3) take away local/state/national tax in the gas prices (not gonna happen, it's a revenue to repair highways/pay gov employee
4) subsidize the gas companies to make it more attractive to sell gas here rather than oversea. (3 would have to happen 1st)
i gota stop and read the post for reposting /slapself
now, a way to "reduce" gas price artificially is to
1) take away demand (hybrid.. or nuke china/india... not realistic)
2) make sure supply exist, since if they just reduce supply, the price would go up (believe me, if USA don't actively settle down the middle east/opec/other places, our gas would be crazy right now)
3) take away local/state/national tax in the gas prices (not gonna happen, it's a revenue to repair highways/pay gov employee
4) subsidize the gas companies to make it more attractive to sell gas here rather than oversea. (3 would have to happen 1st)
i gota stop and read the post for reposting /slapself
Last edited by xsnipersgox; 03-10-2008 at 07:10 PM.
03-10-2008, 07:09 PM
#121
Power!!
Speculation in oil futures and lack of refining capacity are the cause. The price of a barrel of crude moving $30 in 1 year is not because it costs that much more to produce it all the sudden...
03-10-2008, 08:03 PM
#122
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I still love how we havent been given a straight answer as to why the price's are going up steadily.
Everytime price's rise sharply we are given a new "Reason"
or excuse really. Lets see I've heard througout the last few years...
"Its because of Katrina",
"Its because the refineries are still down and slowly being repaired",
"Its because the lack of Oil flowing out of Iraq",
"Because Tensions in the Middle East are escalating",
"..Oil Futures are being sold at a higher cost",
"China and India are now using more oil",
and lastly "Oil Companies are trying to line their pockets with more money before this sudden boom of "eco-cars" hit the market."
Its as if as soon as one reason starts to die down another one is introduced. That and once the price's rise to some "New" high, they stay there for a short time and then fall by say .20cents and everyone is breathing a sigh of relief, but as soon as they rise again it goes to a brand "New" high and the cycle is repeated. Just all of you wait, if Hilary gets elected the first increase in oil price's will be given the "Reason" of "Hilary is PMS'ing".
Everytime price's rise sharply we are given a new "Reason"
or excuse really. Lets see I've heard througout the last few years..."Its because of Katrina",
"Its because the refineries are still down and slowly being repaired",
"Its because the lack of Oil flowing out of Iraq",
"Because Tensions in the Middle East are escalating",
"..Oil Futures are being sold at a higher cost",
"China and India are now using more oil",
and lastly "Oil Companies are trying to line their pockets with more money before this sudden boom of "eco-cars" hit the market."
Its as if as soon as one reason starts to die down another one is introduced. That and once the price's rise to some "New" high, they stay there for a short time and then fall by say .20cents and everyone is breathing a sigh of relief, but as soon as they rise again it goes to a brand "New" high and the cycle is repeated. Just all of you wait, if Hilary gets elected the first increase in oil price's will be given the "Reason" of "Hilary is PMS'ing".
03-10-2008, 10:20 PM
#124
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If you think the next president is going to make it any better you really need to wake up and smell reality. Keep in mind they are probably going to be assassinated during their 1st and only term anyways.
03-10-2008, 10:31 PM
#125
All your gonna where is US made Jeans and Italian made Gucci shoes.
Maybe some American made cotton shirts if you can find them.