VW Phaeton W12
03-01-2004, 12:49 AM
#26
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Noah is the only person I've seen say anything nice about this car. It's turning out to be a disaster for VW, and I'll be shocked if it makes it past it's 2nd MY.
03-01-2004, 04:18 AM
#27
The phaeton was never going to be a success tho was it? Even VW knew that, and budjeted 1/4 of the cars otr costs for advertising...
But, take that car, restyle, supercharge the W12 and add a Bently badge....
But, take that car, restyle, supercharge the W12 and add a Bently badge....
03-01-2004, 02:39 PM
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Originally posted by pelucidor
One minor difference - the Audi is all aluminium and weighs 800lbs less than the all-steel 5200lb VW. You can deduce the difference in acceleration, handling and braking for yourself.
One minor difference - the Audi is all aluminium and weighs 800lbs less than the all-steel 5200lb VW. You can deduce the difference in acceleration, handling and braking for yourself.
03-04-2004, 09:50 AM
#30
"...I'm a Dapper Dan man"
Originally posted by RXhusker
I hope the VW dealership "ambassadors" have a few other duties -- I think there will be a lot of staring out the window waiting for people in the market for a $100k car to come wandering into the VW dealership. Let's see: corporate CEO's, Sports stars, Hollywood celebs, etc. -- yeah VW is always top of mind for these types -- going to go right past the Merc, Bentley, Jag dealerships -- and then past the VW passats and Beetles to ask the "ambassador" about the new VW for the jet set -- should be fun to watch.
p.s. I did sit in one at the Detroit Auto show -- impressive quality -- but not a $100,000 vehicle IMHO
I hope the VW dealership "ambassadors" have a few other duties -- I think there will be a lot of staring out the window waiting for people in the market for a $100k car to come wandering into the VW dealership. Let's see: corporate CEO's, Sports stars, Hollywood celebs, etc. -- yeah VW is always top of mind for these types -- going to go right past the Merc, Bentley, Jag dealerships -- and then past the VW passats and Beetles to ask the "ambassador" about the new VW for the jet set -- should be fun to watch.
p.s. I did sit in one at the Detroit Auto show -- impressive quality -- but not a $100,000 vehicle IMHO
I owned VW's Passat W8, then the flagship of the line and had it repurchased due to complaints about how poor the service was. I paid $39,000 for a friggin' Yugo! As that is the kind of service I was getting!
I don't think the Pheaton is going to be around very long. When VW starts takking it up the *** in sales and then all the complaints about the poor service maybe then they will wake up and smell the coffe and get back to producing cars for the masses not the privileged few!
03-04-2004, 10:50 AM
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Mercedes S600: $125,000, 490 horsepower, 590 torque, 4600 pounds. Twin turbo V12.
BMW 760: $120,000, 438 horsepower, 444 torque, 4900 pounds. Direct Fuel Injection V12 (good gas mileage for its size and power).
VolksWagen Phaeton W12: $98,000, 420 horsepower, 406 torque, 5400 pounds. W12.
(All info courtesy Edmunds.com)
So if you
1. absolutely must have a 12 cylinder engine in your car
2. don't mind if the 12 cylinders are not in a V formation
3. refuse to buy a used car
4a. don't care about brand recognition OR
4b. can afford $100,000 but not $120,000
5. are not overly considered with reliability
The Volkswagen Phaeton W12 is the perfect car for you. Any bets as to how many people fit that category?
I think they need to cut the cost of the Phaeton in any trim by 30% before it will meet even their conservative sales targets. Lexus broke into the luxury car market by offering superb vehicles at competitive prices with excellent reliability. VW's Phaeton is a decent vehicle with poor price and bad reliability. No way, no how.
BMW 760: $120,000, 438 horsepower, 444 torque, 4900 pounds. Direct Fuel Injection V12 (good gas mileage for its size and power).
VolksWagen Phaeton W12: $98,000, 420 horsepower, 406 torque, 5400 pounds. W12.
(All info courtesy Edmunds.com)
So if you
1. absolutely must have a 12 cylinder engine in your car
2. don't mind if the 12 cylinders are not in a V formation
3. refuse to buy a used car
4a. don't care about brand recognition OR
4b. can afford $100,000 but not $120,000
5. are not overly considered with reliability
The Volkswagen Phaeton W12 is the perfect car for you. Any bets as to how many people fit that category?
I think they need to cut the cost of the Phaeton in any trim by 30% before it will meet even their conservative sales targets. Lexus broke into the luxury car market by offering superb vehicles at competitive prices with excellent reliability. VW's Phaeton is a decent vehicle with poor price and bad reliability. No way, no how.
03-04-2004, 04:37 PM
#33
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Originally posted by noahprtlnd
According the Car and Driver, the difference is 545 lb., and they have equal 0-60 times, 0.1 second difference in 1/4 mile times, and the VW outperforms the Audi on the skidpad.
According the Car and Driver, the difference is 545 lb., and they have equal 0-60 times, 0.1 second difference in 1/4 mile times, and the VW outperforms the Audi on the skidpad.
03-04-2004, 04:40 PM
#34
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From www.autoextremist.com:
Ferdinand Piech, the oftentimes brilliant but wildly egomaniacal engineer who in his earlier years was responsible for some of the greatest Porsche racing cars ever built, including the magnificent 908/3 (my personal favorite) and the legendary 917, and who ran Volkswagen with an iron fist before ascending to the chairmanship of VW's supervisory board, has now solidified his legacy in such an unexpectedly negative way that no one could have imagined it possible even five years ago.
"Piech's Folly" - which was a grandiose platform strategy scheme to turn VW into a manufacturer of ultra-luxury vehicles, in a bold attempt to establish VW as the world's premier automotive brand - has only succeeded in taking VW's eye off of the ball and caused the company to fall behind in its core markets. While Piech's "vision" unleashed a series of cars like the new $70,000+ VW Phaeton (including a costly new assembly facility in Dresden), the Bentley Continental GT (still yet to arrive in showrooms), the Audi A8, a new "more affordable" Lamborghini, the Gallardo (and an offshoot for Audi), and the ultimate waste of time, money and resources - the $1 million Bugatti Veyron (which still may not get built) - the wheels have come off for VW around the world.
VW sales were down 32 percent in January in the U.S. and a new, aggressive package of incentives is on the way to keep the brand from going into a freefall here. Meanwhile, VW's crucial, bread-and-butter car, the Golf, has been a lackluster performer since the fifth generation of the vehicle made its debut in the European market last fall, and now VW is having to slow production and add incentives to try to prop up flagging demand on its home turf. This would have been unthinkable for VW in the past.
Current VW CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder, who inherited this mess from Piech, will be faced with some very tough questions at the Geneva Auto Show this week, as members of the media are beginning to circle like sharks in the water, questioning the strategy of his predecessor while noting that the company's profit is plunging precipitously. And if Pischetsrieder and his handlers were smart, he would avoid getting into any explanations about the "why" of all of it and instead just go over the steps being taken to try to pull VW out of this mess right now.
Because at the end of the day the "why" is quite clear.
The "why" for VW revolves around the fact that its former chairman - a wild, egomaniacal presence who never, ever heard the word "no" and who ran roughshod and unfettered over everyone in his quest to impose his "vision" on every aspect of the company - is single-handedly responsible for the precarious position VW finds itself in right now.
And anyone who thinks VW will be able to recover from this in a few quarters is kidding themselves. Intensifying competition from the Asian car companies is starting to really be felt in Europe, for one thing, and a newly invigorated GM presence (although they have a long way to go) is sure to spell trouble for VW over there. Not to mention the fact that VW won't have any new products here in the U.S. market to replace the Golf and the Jetta for at least a year, while they continue to try to figure out how to get people interested in the slow-selling Phaeton (incentive leases are coming).
Ferdinand Piech - the man whose legacy should have been solidified around the many engineering achievements over his career and who is now safely ensconced as the all-powerful chairman of the VW supervisory board, where he's far, far away from the tough questions and the sticky concepts like responsibility and accountability - is now saddled with being the man behind one of the biggest corporate "face-plants" in automotive history.
I think that all the German auto companies are in for a world of pain soon - Porsche (Boxster sales are almost gone, 911 following suit, Cayenne beginning to slow down), BMW (styling disasters inside and out, electronic overkill), VW (reliability issues, real-world goal of cannibalising Audi sales) and Mercedes (poor quality and reliability documented everywhere).
Of the four I think Mercedes is over the hump and about to make a comeback (SL and soon to be released CLS). They admitted their mistakes in quality (but not reliability) and new models should be much better (at a price of course). The other three brands will not admit to any mistakes and will really suffer over the next three years IMO.
What annoys me about VW is that when they released the Phaeton in the USA they said it was good value compared to other German luxury cars. They totally ignored 'other' luxury brands like Lexus (best selling luxury nameplate in USA) and Infiniti as if they were beneath them - this is exactly the attitude that BMW/MB had 14 years ago when Toyota launched Lexus and they suffered mightily because of it - VW cannot even learn from the history of other German marques. To me the Phaeton W8 will be a joke until it dramatically undercuts the LS430/Q45 in price (i.e. $50k for a loaded car that costs $73k now) and offers similar reliability to Infiniti/Lexus. The $100k Phaeton W12 (without the smoothness of a V12 mind you) will always be a joke no matter what VW does.
Ferdinand Piech, the oftentimes brilliant but wildly egomaniacal engineer who in his earlier years was responsible for some of the greatest Porsche racing cars ever built, including the magnificent 908/3 (my personal favorite) and the legendary 917, and who ran Volkswagen with an iron fist before ascending to the chairmanship of VW's supervisory board, has now solidified his legacy in such an unexpectedly negative way that no one could have imagined it possible even five years ago.
"Piech's Folly" - which was a grandiose platform strategy scheme to turn VW into a manufacturer of ultra-luxury vehicles, in a bold attempt to establish VW as the world's premier automotive brand - has only succeeded in taking VW's eye off of the ball and caused the company to fall behind in its core markets. While Piech's "vision" unleashed a series of cars like the new $70,000+ VW Phaeton (including a costly new assembly facility in Dresden), the Bentley Continental GT (still yet to arrive in showrooms), the Audi A8, a new "more affordable" Lamborghini, the Gallardo (and an offshoot for Audi), and the ultimate waste of time, money and resources - the $1 million Bugatti Veyron (which still may not get built) - the wheels have come off for VW around the world.
VW sales were down 32 percent in January in the U.S. and a new, aggressive package of incentives is on the way to keep the brand from going into a freefall here. Meanwhile, VW's crucial, bread-and-butter car, the Golf, has been a lackluster performer since the fifth generation of the vehicle made its debut in the European market last fall, and now VW is having to slow production and add incentives to try to prop up flagging demand on its home turf. This would have been unthinkable for VW in the past.
Current VW CEO Bernd Pischetsrieder, who inherited this mess from Piech, will be faced with some very tough questions at the Geneva Auto Show this week, as members of the media are beginning to circle like sharks in the water, questioning the strategy of his predecessor while noting that the company's profit is plunging precipitously. And if Pischetsrieder and his handlers were smart, he would avoid getting into any explanations about the "why" of all of it and instead just go over the steps being taken to try to pull VW out of this mess right now.
Because at the end of the day the "why" is quite clear.
The "why" for VW revolves around the fact that its former chairman - a wild, egomaniacal presence who never, ever heard the word "no" and who ran roughshod and unfettered over everyone in his quest to impose his "vision" on every aspect of the company - is single-handedly responsible for the precarious position VW finds itself in right now.
And anyone who thinks VW will be able to recover from this in a few quarters is kidding themselves. Intensifying competition from the Asian car companies is starting to really be felt in Europe, for one thing, and a newly invigorated GM presence (although they have a long way to go) is sure to spell trouble for VW over there. Not to mention the fact that VW won't have any new products here in the U.S. market to replace the Golf and the Jetta for at least a year, while they continue to try to figure out how to get people interested in the slow-selling Phaeton (incentive leases are coming).
Ferdinand Piech - the man whose legacy should have been solidified around the many engineering achievements over his career and who is now safely ensconced as the all-powerful chairman of the VW supervisory board, where he's far, far away from the tough questions and the sticky concepts like responsibility and accountability - is now saddled with being the man behind one of the biggest corporate "face-plants" in automotive history.
I think that all the German auto companies are in for a world of pain soon - Porsche (Boxster sales are almost gone, 911 following suit, Cayenne beginning to slow down), BMW (styling disasters inside and out, electronic overkill), VW (reliability issues, real-world goal of cannibalising Audi sales) and Mercedes (poor quality and reliability documented everywhere).
Of the four I think Mercedes is over the hump and about to make a comeback (SL and soon to be released CLS). They admitted their mistakes in quality (but not reliability) and new models should be much better (at a price of course). The other three brands will not admit to any mistakes and will really suffer over the next three years IMO.
What annoys me about VW is that when they released the Phaeton in the USA they said it was good value compared to other German luxury cars. They totally ignored 'other' luxury brands like Lexus (best selling luxury nameplate in USA) and Infiniti as if they were beneath them - this is exactly the attitude that BMW/MB had 14 years ago when Toyota launched Lexus and they suffered mightily because of it - VW cannot even learn from the history of other German marques. To me the Phaeton W8 will be a joke until it dramatically undercuts the LS430/Q45 in price (i.e. $50k for a loaded car that costs $73k now) and offers similar reliability to Infiniti/Lexus. The $100k Phaeton W12 (without the smoothness of a V12 mind you) will always be a joke no matter what VW does.
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