playdoh43

i think in your example all the other factors are on more even grounds, thus the importance of weight makes a big difference.

i agree that weight is one of the biggest factors, i think traction and balance is up there too. even if you have a car that weighs very little, if you have crappy tires, its not going to handle better than a big 38000lb M3 with sticky tires. I would argue that traction might be even more important than weight because no matter how light you are you still need to make contact with the ground to move.

RX8-79

You're sounding more fanatical with each post you add. It sounds like you're basically saying "the 8 handles better than anything on the road because it's light and has a small engine." Between being so dogmatic, and point blank saying a car can or can't do something without having driven it, you honestly sound like an ignorant fool.

You know nothing about the 135 or what it's capable of doing. To say it's impossible that it could handle better than the 8 is just ridiculous. I personally think the 335 sedan already handles better than the 8, so it's safe to assume the lighter and more responsive 135 will too. But rather than proclaim it like it's already written in stone, I'll reserve judgment until I've driven it.

I'm sure you'll scoff and get indignant about me thinking either handles better, but the very fact that people seem to think so shows just how subjective handling can be. Keep that in mind.

mysql101

I haven't driven any of the two cars you listed, but I have driven a friend's 2005 M3 back to back with my TC RX-8 and with RB sways being the only suspension mod, I can safely say that the Rx-8 was nimbler and felt better grounded than the M3, at that time, the power levels were also fairly comparable given the weight difference.

RX8-79

Uh-huh. Thanks for proving my point. Handling comes down to feel, which is subjective.

delhi

Maybe folks are getting confused with stiffness equating to handling? Case in point, my 92x Aero is stiffer than my RX-8 but it is will not out hustle the 8.
Had a 330ci Sport for a few weeks while my 8 was hibernating. It felt stiff. But it wasn't as nimble as the 8 nor was it what's the word.... communicative. I can feel the bulk of the car when hitting the turns. I was very happy to get back into the rx-8 needless to say.
I find it incredulous that a 3600lb 335i is nimbler than an rx-8. So how much lighter is the 135i? Last I check it was about 80lbs lighter. And I thought the 350z was heavy.

RX8-79

And maybe SOME folks are getting confused with nimbleness equating to handling. Case in point, the RX8 is more nimble than the M3, but it wont out hustle it.

mysql101

Please define hustle.

My friend's m3 has 333 hp at 7900 rpm and 262 lb-ft of torque at 4900 rpm, and weighs 3400 lbs (http://www.internetautoguide.com/car.../m3/index.html)

So in terms of power to the wheels, he's looking at around 280 whp vs my 300, and my car is 300 lbs lighter. His car also sits higher, the driver's position is higher, and the car has more body roll. The engine is huge and isn't behind the front axle.

2004 dyno: http://www.dragtimes.com/2004-BMW-M3...phs-10186.html


I don't think his car could beat mine in a drag race, or in an auto cross. I felt like I had more acceleration in my car back when it had the 215 lb/ft greddy turbo (It was both of us in my car and both of us in his car). Of course that could be the infamous butt dyno effect, but it would be more pronounced now with the upgraded turbo.

playdoh43

i dont think hes talking about your particular car.

Startl_Respons

Or when debating idiots.


It's absurd that you actually tried to explain what you meant when you said both "usually" and "always." LOL. My point is that everyone except you would instantly understand that the two concepts of usually and always can not logically go together.

delhi

Having driven a coupla E46 M3 and M Roadsters. Let's just say I wouldn't have a problem going round a real world road against them with the 8. Having said that, the 8 is not as powerful so any mistakes or inadequacies of an M3 will be quickly masked by mashing the gas pedal.

bose

iTrader: (5)

stupid comparison. next lets compare my riding lawn mower to a monster truck...gotta love how people always try to compare our cars to completely unrelated ****

Startl_Respons

This is why scientists are frustrated by semantics games of humanities or pre-law majors or your average undergrad of any major. The latter loves to add other factors that were not previously mentioned in an attempt to obfuscate or try to correct their earlier misstatements. They tend to talk in hypothetical logic, after their earlier statements ran into trouble, to try to show that the picture is more complicated. THANK YOU BUT WE ALREADY KNOW THIS.

Have you ever tried to reason with someone not particularly educated or smart on some of the simplest nonissue issues and you just wanted to shoot yourself? Notice how these people tend to confuse things by always pointing to hypothetical factors or conditions?

My point all along is that here we do not need to bring up hypotheticals. We already have the 2 exemplar cars in question. We are talking specifically about the 2 cars. Even when delhi and others use general language, it is understood that we are referring specifically to the 2 cars and with an underlying knowledge about the RX8. You KNOW exactly what delhi means even though he doesn't explicitly mention everything. Notice how YOU choose purposefully to not acknowledge the specificity and continue bringing up factors in general, as if he and others don't already know.

We are owners of the RX8; you do not own either car. We know that
the RX8's engine is placed extremely low and back. We know the 135i weighs approximately 400 lbs more than the RX8. From my PERSONAL experience with the 335i, I know that the engine is placed much higher and more forward. By reasonable inference, we can transfer that to the 135i and say the engine bay of the 135i is going to be similar.

My statements were not referring to the general situation. If you've ever done inferential statistics, do you know how many complex interactions or permutations there could be? This is exactly what your debate attempt falls into! So many dumb people and undergrads do this. It's nothing new. I'm so used to this that you didn't even have me [fooled] at hello.

Look at your latest posts. They all fall under an attempt to invoke general factors. You haven't said anything new from your earlier posts. Could it really be that all those people STILL don't understand what you're saying? Could it really be that you still don't understand what we're saying? Wasn't this false debate over a long time ago?

Ajax

Please explain to us how it is stupid to compare 2 similarly priced performance vehicles?

My only complaint about the comparison is the price difference between the 2 cars being only 2000 euro.
They would've been better off comparing base model cars, not some toy equipped RX-8. A base model RX-8 is about $9000 cheaper than a base model 135i.

playdoh43

ooo, i see the mods finally warned you about insulting people and acting immature and cleaned the thread up.

so my point is, saying rx8 handles better than the 135 because its lighter without having driven the 135 is short sighted. whats your point after all your walls of insulting text? mysql seem like he understand what I was saying and we respectfully agree with different points. all you do is make things up and make assumptions and you have the nerve to talk about "debating"

and whats with the hate on college students? you must have something against them with your repeated attempts to put down undergrads lol

Startl_Respons

I'm quite sure I don't sound like a fool, although I do sound like someone getting impatient with playdoh.

Delhi and I seem to be on the same wavelength. There is a difference between stiffness, grip, and handling. The 335i is real solid and taut. That doesn't mean it's a better all-around handler. At 3700 lbs, with a bigger engine that is placed so high and forward, it is not a better handler than the RX8. Indeed, it seems to be tighter than the RX8 when driving around town. But its limits are lower than the RX8's, and at the limit, it can really catch you off-guard and lead to a disaster scenario.

People who haven't driven a 335i can point to the 350z at 3300 lbs or G35 coupe at 3500 lbs. The 350z is real tight and stiff. It grips real hard (just like the mags say) but it also hits its limits earlier and quite suddenly (just like the mags say). To me, the G35 coupe is even more dangerous because it has a more supple ride combined with a lot of power assist so it feels really light and nimble, but it's not.

Sephiroth

Too bad they couldn't compare the new RX-8 with the 135.

playdoh43

you sure sound like a fool to me, you write all these walls of text and call me names, get warned by the mods trying to debate an opinion of mine. in the process getting frustrated and loosing your cool.

Startl_Respons

Although one post was modified, no one gave me a warning, not even in PM. My guess is that the mods already know your reputation as a non-RX8 owner who's been trolling around here for around 2 years.


BTW, let me make it clear once again that my inferences about the 135i handling capability are transferred from my personal experience with the 335i, which I will be driving again later this week. And no, that is not an unreasonable inference. We already have someone who says that he thinks the 335i handles better than the RX8. I explain in the previous thread how that seems to be true at first but is not true at the limit. Although the 135i is around 200 lbs lighter than the 335i, it is still around 400 lbs heavier than the RX8. Its engine placement and configuration will be similar to that of the 335i. It will handle better than the 335i (and I can infer this without having driven it, right? No one disagrees, right?), it will not handle overall as well as the RX8. Its handling limits will not be as high as the RX8's.

playdoh43

lol, so you have your oppinion and I have mine. whats the problem? you seem sooo hell bent to prove something in getting so frustrated. you can infer all you want, to me its still short sighted since you hanvnt driven a 135

playdoh43

the best part is i never said the the 135 handles better than the rx8 lol or vice versa. The more frustrated you get the more entertainment we get to see

Startl_Respons

Let's go one step even more concrete. This should quiet the naysayers.

You have to go downhill on an extremely winding canyon run with a ton of S's starting high up in mountain cliffs. There are 2 cars to choose from: an RX8 and an 135i. Your life depends on getting down the mountain faster. And not falling off the mountain! It is a time trial so cars are run separately. Which car do you choose?

For me, the decision is easy. I go with the RX8. What would you guys choose?

Startl_Respons

Actually there are 2 best parts.

The first is that you used "usually" and "always" in the same sentence, and later still tried to talk your way out of it. Isn't that insane?

The second is the clincher: you have never driven the 135i and you don't own an RX8.

playdoh43

haha, id rather just say "usually," if it makes ya happy?

you're right! Ive never driven a 135, thats why I don't go around talking smack about its handling. thanks for helping me prove my point

Startl_Respons

And do you own an RX8?

playdoh43

nope i sure don't, i just drive it from time to time i would if I have the extra money laying around, but im a proud g35 coupe owner. theres plenty of non rx8 owners on this board.