Ike

I think I fugured it out... the 3 wagon looks kind of like a pontiac vibe but lower and more carlike...

Hornet

Actually the windows (except the windsheild) are different than a regular lancer. As an extra weight saving measure the windows in the Evo are shaved. The chassis has some ungodly amount of extra welds for stiffness.

kcruboy

Good God there's alotta BS on here.... EVO's and STI's are not fwd based awd wutever the crap you were trying to say.....They actually have very advanced designs that were made specifically for maximum performance. They easily outperform any rwd sports car short of some porsches and ferraris so show a lil respect.

Either of these would run circles around your 8, which I'm guessing you think is a true "sports car".....haha

True they're not exactly plush, but they do serve their purpose and really aren't all that cheap looking imo. I disagree with the idiot who thinks they're turbo econo boxes.....there's more advanced equipment on these hardcore performance bargains than on any 8. End of argument.

Xyntax

Even though this guy's a dick, I agree with some of his points. Those cars are not just turboed econoboxes. There's more inside of its build compared to their econobox brothers. They are also built to cater the "all performance" audience. They're not trying to sell those cars to the just daily driver type.

If people wanna talk smack about hyped-out econoboxes, go bash the Scions. I'll even go there too! :D

kcruboy

Thanks for the support, sorry for having to sound like an ***. I just get a lil pissed when people try to put down such great cars.

Even though I might not sound like it at times, I do believe the 8 has its strengths (such as comfort, looks, and handling). In fact I still debate whether to get one at times. However, its just not in the same performance category that these amazing cars are in.

It all comes down to comfort vs. performance.

Zio

The SRT does not out corner the RX-8...

FamilyGuy

At the end of the day, all that matters is if you like the car you own and you enjoy driving it.

The SRT-4 isn't too pretty. Neither Neons nor Chrysler in general have a good reputation. It doesn't even have RWD, which is usually the baseline test for whether a performance car has the potential to be a serious performer. But the fact is, for pure speed you positively can't beat the value for your dollar. There's nothing wrong with that and I for one am pleasantly surprised that Chrysler could build any performance car worth owning that your average person can afford.

I personally would rather see one hundred SRT-4s on the road rather than one more technicolor Civic with a matchbox handle spoiler, coffee can muffler, and subwoofers audible from two miles away.

[Edit] Oops... wrote FWD in the second paragraph when I meant RWD. Fixed it.

jonnyb

lets go there!! i hate scion .

rx-cars_rock

The TEB's are fine. I think its great that all the car companies are getting back into the performance wars again. I grew up with the japanese imports being upstarts and really challenging the domestics. I will point out some flaws in the TEB's however. In the srt-4 the styling is....not attractive. It is FWD. The transmissions are starting to have some problems. (not surprising since dodge trannies suck.) The STi is way too flashy and bare bones. (It doesn't even come with a radio). The EVO 8 is just as flashy and I am not a fan of the styling. The cars are good for being a daily driver and getting around in bad weather/winter. Hence the FWD and AWD. I personally would not buy any of them as my performance/fun car for the FWD/AWD reasons. I think the cars are fine, I am glad they are out, but they are not my style.

downshift

There seems to be two lines of thought on these cars. I see people claiming that they're the road going versions of the WRC cars on one side, and people seeing them as regular Lancers and WRX with mods.

Now, for those in the first camp, are they really referring to WRC or just rally in general? Because the last time I saw WRC, the only similarities are the body shape, which is to adhere to the homologation rules. The gearbox alone costs $50k and the engine management and cooling is custom made. I tried to do some research on the net but couldn't find anything about the similarities of the road-going cars and the WRC versions (barring sites that are non-English, which is quite a lot).

For those who think that these cars are just hooked up econoboxes, do you actually know what WRC is?

Just curious. Discuss...:D

Edit: Just before anybody jump to conclusions - I respect and admire these cars for their performance and I'm glad they are finally on our shores. Regardless of the viewpoints, there is no denying the kind of performance these cars offer.

ArExHead

From my experience, most people make a reference to general Rally and off-road racing. WRC mobiles are quite heavily modified, not only in terms of power and handling but right down to the frame and weight/weight distribution. So, it's difficult to make a direct comparison if you lack experience (like myself) in rally/WRC.

In my opinion, the beefed up Lancers and WRXs are meant to be little road devils who proudly carry their heritage (or toned down WRC monsters as you put it). I don't think anyone will deny how impressive their overall performances are in any area.

Feras

iTrader: (1)

powerwise these cars are very similar to their WRC older brothers, but theres a reason these cost $35k and the WRC spec versions cost a half million.

Ike

Well, from the STi side at least when the Prodrive WRC car is made it starts life as a JDM STi and is turned into a race car by Prodrive. You can buy that very car as well as many other versions of it for rally racing as long as you have the money.

http://www.prodrive.com/defaultflash.asp?M=6

Or there are plenty of guys out there that just do their own mods to an STi to make it rally ready, such as a dogbox, twinscroll turbo, etc. Or just get a set of tires and hit the local rallyx. However the base model Impreza is quite capable a rallyx car with a few modifications. Which brings me to my thinking the the Impreza in no form is an econobox. I don't know of any other AWD econoboxes, nor of any that have the capabilities or unique powerplant (The Boxer) of the Impreza line.

Here's an article by Forbes who would be the first publication to call it a tarted up Econobox if they could.

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/2004...308test_2.html


The EVO on the otherhand when it's not in EVO form has a different powerplant altogether, and is a FWD car. Again, not a whole lot of similarities between it and the car that lends the EVO it's chassis, but more similarities to the WRC cars.

Call these cars rally inspired with econobox foundations if you want, but that's about as far as you can go with it since they have a more race bred feel than just about any car on the road today.

downshift

Good links, Ike. That review is quite honest, I would say. However, they did say that it is a niche car and their review is practically useless to someone who is getting one for the right reasons.

The Prodrive's page on the WRC did list out some serious equipment but they didn't mention anything about building it from a stock STi. The referral to the JDM STi is for the group N cars.

What about the other manufacturers? Hyundai had the Accent on the WRC circuit for a few years, would I say the Accent has rally DNA in its chassis, since it seems like what is needed to make it rally car ready is to upgrade the engine, brakes, suspension, chassis crossbraces, rollcage, aerodynamics? If Hyundai came out with an AWD Accent with turbo, would I say it's no econobox but a road-going rally car? Actually that would be interesting if Hyundai came out with such a car, since I've had one before

murix

For rally racing, it only makes sense to take your smallest, lightest platform and then start from there. Things like build quality and leather trim are the least of their concerns. The road cars are based on the experience the companies gain from rally racing.

I think they are both. Beefed up econoboxes built with rally experience and knowledge. I respect them completely though they are not my style. Having come from a 97 Eclipse I find it a shame they could not simply offered the Evo package in a newer updated Eclipse body to pick up where they left off in 99.

If they ever made such a car and made it available in the US, I would take a good look at an awd turbo 206. Sweet looking car in rally form and would be a lot of fun. Too bad they have not capitolised on it yet.

2QT2bSTR8

its the same as a SRT-4, its a fast economy car.

Ike

Thanks for all the well thought out support, and factual evidence that back up you claims.

policyvote

IMHO the answer is "a little of both". The Evo and STi are extremely capable cars, clearly sharing design DNA with their big, bad WRC counterparts. There's a lot more in common between these cars and the WRC cars than there is between the Monte Carlo and a NASCAR sled, that's for sure. Certainly, a stock EVO or STi would be an excellent local rally or rallyx car. I'm pretty sure the Suby WRC team uses stock JDM STi's as recce (making course notes) vehicles.

That having been said, It's hard not to look at the EVO and STi and see brilliantly done tuner cars. Engine swaps, FI, brand-name aftermarket parts (Recaro, Sparco, Brembo, BBS, etc.) . . . it seems like some high-dollar custom shop did a ton of work to make the base models resemble the big boys. In a way, that's basically true.

I will say that the gap between the base Lancer and EVO is much bigger than the gap betwen the base Impreza and the WRX (or STi). The base Lancer is a roling turd--no power, different (hideous) styling, even worse interior and options. The Impreza at least looks like the WRX, and keeps the AWD.

Ultimately, it's best to judge these cars on their own--if their base models are on one end of the automotive spectrum, and their WRC namesakes are on the other, they're just about smack dab in the middle. They are both outstandingly capable and versatile vehicles--and both are extremely responsive to modification. If you spend $5000 intelligently on either car, you'd have a MONSTER all-around performer that could thrash just about anything you might come across. That having been said, they are NOT de-tuned WRC cars. The kajillion-dollar effort that goes into a WRC campaign results in mind-blowing supercars . . . the stats may not be that great on paper, but that's because of the restrictor plates, rule limitations, etc. . . .

Yeah. A little bit of both, but really neither. Judge the cars for what they are, rather than what they might most closely resemble.

Peace
policy

Ike

Very well said. To expand further on the recce cars Subaru uses an STi, Peugeot and Citreon use debadged EVOs (at least the did last year when Mitsubishi wasn;t competing), Skoda uses Skoda's, Ford uses Volvos, and I have no clue what Hyundai uses but something tells me it's not an Accent :p Here's a picture of Peugeot's recce.

2QT2bSTR8

I thought you were smart enough to fill in th blanks, but here you go.

Lancer=Economy car
Neon = Economy car
Imprezza=Economy car

EVO=Fast Economy car
SRT4=fast economy car
STI=fast economy car

RENESIS

Well, after lurking since the beginning of this forum, my first post comes in defense of the Impreza and the EVO.

The Impreza is NOT an economy car like the Neon, Ion, Sentra and many others. It IS a small sedan/wagon for a reasonable price. If the Impreza were an economy car it would not be known for the strength of its chassis, it would not have a long travel 4 wheel strut suspension, and would not have one of the most effective AWD systems on the market. It also would not have an all aluminum longitudinally mounted boxer engine which provides a lower center of gravity, better weight distribution and no torque steer due to equal length drive shafts. IF it WERE an economy car, it would get better than 28mpg and would have a transversely mounted FWD drivetrain like the Corolla, Civic, Neon, Sentra, etc. The base Impreza is the exact same chassis that is used in the WRX and WRX STi because the WRX and STi versions are designed into the chsssis from the outset, not like the Sentra SE-R or the Neon SRT-4 which are after thoughts. This speaks volumes about the quality of the base Impreza's engineering, and does not make the STi a hopped up econo car.

Read this from SPD, a leading tuner of Subarus:

"The Subaru WRX is a sublime piece of automotive engineering. Simple when it can be, sophisticated where it needs to be. It is a car without the flair of say an Audi or a BMW, but when it is 10 o'clock in the evening and you have 20 minutes to inspect and repair your team's rally car, the unbelievably well thought out ease of access to every part on the car makes it possible to do the impossible, such as change out a damaged gearbox in 18 minutes flat or assign a pair of mechanics to change a rear hub assembly in 8-10 minutes.. This is what you pay for. Subaru is a very small company run by very clever engineers._ A kind of clear headed engineering that makes an informed mechanic look forward to working on your car._

Perhaps the most important result of this clear headed engineering approach is the effectiveness of the Subaru as a performance car. Properly setup, it can take you (very quickly) from point A to point B with less stress and more driving satisfaction than all but a small, generally much more expensive handful of cars. Driven smoothly, not softly, it will do it again and again for a long time. An informed driver who will let the car's strengths work into their driving experience is supremely rewarded.

A couple of years ago, Eddie Alterman of Automobile magazine called and asked me why the WRX was such an important car. As a result of our conversation Automobile magazine wound up doing a comparison test, Subaru WRX vs. Porsche 996 for the March 2001 issue. Here is what I had to say at that time, most of which was graciously quoted in that article:

The Subaru is a car made by enthusiast engineers for enthusiast drivers._ It is not an accident that only two car companies in the world have maintained long standing engineering companies separate from their production and marketing organization. One is Porsche/Audi and the other is Subaru. During the 1960's the Japanese government laid plans with the major Koretsu conglomerates to understand the world's manufacturing leaders and become better companies through this study. At that time Nissan took basically Germany, developing an engineering staff that had all its focus on German engineering while Toyota sent engineers to England and Italy. Both generally dismissed American design esthetics, but paid very careful attention to American production technology._

If you put a 1968 Datsun 510 on a hoist it looks exactly like a 2002 BMW, but about 300 pounds lighter. If you take apart its engine it looks just like a period Mercedes engine, except for the kidney shaped 327 fuely' Chevrolet combustion chamber. The optional close ratio 5-speed transmission has Porsche synchos in it. This was the year that Subaru was founded. The kind of engineers that designed the Datsun 510 became the generation that trained the Subaru engineers. This was also the time of Porsche ascendance to greatness. While the great Ferrari-Mercedes-Maserati, Mercedes-Jaguar, Lotus-Ferrari and Ford-Ferrari battles captivated the imagination of this first generation of Japanese engineers, it was the sheer technical mastery and dominance of Porsche that faced the generation that founded the core Subaru engineering staff. They understood Porsche's message quite clearly. An Otto cycle internal combustion engine is a convenient hot gas generator for a turbine powered car. Invent the computer controlled engine management system and the rest is history. The Subaru WRX engine is best thought of as 2/3 of a Porsche 956/962 engine._

The point of fact is every element of the Subaru Legacy/Impreza design (the Legacy and the Impreza are mechanically 90% identical btw) has been reviewed with a view to first function, second simplicity, third effectiveness of purpose. Within this simple ring the mechanical design has evolved into a physical shape. What is remarkable is that everything that can be simple is simple. Only those elements of design that achieve greater effectiveness through added complexity are the transmission and the engine. The differential - the same Hitachi R160 design as was found on the Datsun 510! The Subaru Legacy/Impreza were designed from the start to win the World Rally Championship away from Audi and then Toyota.

As any mechanic will tell you, there is not a bad wrench position on the entire car. It has to rate as one of the all time easiest modern cars to work on. Nothing on or about the car is an accident. It is a totally engineered package. It may have only 56/44 weight distribution, but the engineers figured that they could get away with it. It may only have McPherson strut front and modified Chapman strut rear suspension, but it is a rally car that needs the inherent strength and long wheel travel this design presents. Eight inches of rear suspension travel? You have to be kidding. GM only gave the Camero four inches of rear wheel travel! Kind of frumpy looking overhangs? No, not really, just a 99 inch wheel base that turns on a dime. They shoved the wheels as close together as they could and still have a fair back seat! It is pure sports car. "

I am not as familiar with the EVO, but I am fairly certain that it shares VERY, VERY little with the Lancer. The car does not even use the same chassis as the FWD Lancer. It is significantly reinforced


2QT2bSTR8 don't post if you don't have a clue

Greg
1989 Mazda RX-7
2001 Subaru Impreza 2.5RS

downshift

Excellent stuff, RENESIS. That's the kind of information I was looking for. That article did make a good point that I never thought about: ease of accessibility for maintenance work. I guess that is one of the signs of a built-for-rallying DNA that the Subaru has on their everyday cars. Makes me want to get a WRX now

Skyline Maniac

Call the STi and Evo8 whatever you want, just know these car are the best bang for the buck performance monster ever to meet the market. Call them econobox all you want, the chasis and platform design of these new cars had performance in mind. Dismissing these two cars as econobox is pure ignorance.

2QT2bSTR8

If it wasn't for the 3rd gen rx-7 I would agree with you, but it still rules.

Zio

you can call the impreza an economy car but it runs about 20k and the WRX version starts around 22-23k and the STI starts at 30k and all are AWD rally cars basically. The neon SRT4 is just a hopped up FWD economy sedan.